[W: 20] If you do this your religion is useless...

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Do the JW's believe in firewalls? Regardless, I'm saying good job. How is this controversial? :lol:

The only thing you said that was controversial was in your very first sentence on this thread that inferred Elvira needs "image repair."

That seems to be the M.O. of a number of folks on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, etc. etc. etc. Even when they agree with somebody of the 'wrong ideology', they manage to get in a personal swipe at them as being inconsistent from what they usually are or reversing themselves or being hypocritical or some such.

And too many, if they disagree, don't rebut the expressed opinion with logic, reason, and/or better information, but call the other person stupid or some other ugly adjective and/or refer to their post as ignorant or hateful or stupid or some such, etc.

All that is decidedly unChristian and unworthy of those who claim to love God. I think the guy in the video in the OP is spot on.

 

[Daisy]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

The only thing you said that was controversial was in your very first sentence on this thread that inferred Elvira needs "image repair."

That seems to be the M.O. of a number of folks on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, etc. etc. etc. Even when they agree with somebody of the 'wrong ideology', they manage to get in a personal swipe at them as being inconsistent from what they usually are or reversing themselves or being hypocritical or some such.

And if they disagree they don't rebut the expressed opinion with logic, reason, and/or better information, but call the other person stupid or some other ugly adjective and/or refer to their post as ignorant or hateful or stupid or some such, etc.

All that is decidedly unChristian and unworthy of those who claim to love God. I think the guy in the video in the OP is spot on.

Absolutely...such pious behavior is not the way Jesus taught us to behave at all...Jesus forced his teachings on no one and he taught his apostles in the same way...

"And wherever people do not receive you, on going out of that city, shake the dust off your feet for a witness against them.” Luke 9:5

This practice also served as a witness in and of itself...“for a witness against them,” implying that Jesus’ followers were peacefully departing and leaving that house or that city to the consequences that would come from God.​..

"So they shook the dust off their feet against them and went to Iconium." Acts 13:51

 

[polgara]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

The only thing you said that was controversial was in your very first sentence on this thread that inferred Elvira needs "image repair."

That seems to be the M.O. of a number of folks on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, etc. etc. etc. Even when they agree with somebody of the 'wrong ideology', they manage to get in a personal swipe at them as being inconsistent from what they usually are or reversing themselves or being hypocritical or some such.

And too many, if they disagree, don't rebut the expressed opinion with logic, reason, and/or better information, but call the other person stupid or some other ugly adjective and/or refer to their post as ignorant or hateful or stupid or some such, etc.

All that is decidedly unChristian and unworthy of those who claim to love God. I think the guy in the video in the OP is spot on.

Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Elvira needs "image repair?" I am going to write today's date down in big letters because today I have heard it all!!! Sheesh!

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Absolutely...such pious behavior is not the way Jesus taught us to behave at all...Jesus forced his teachings on no one and he taught his apostles in the same way...

"And wherever people do not receive you, on going out of that city, shake the dust off your feet for a witness against them.” Luke 9:5

This practice also served as a witness in and of itself...“for a witness against them,” implying that Jesus’ followers were peacefully departing and leaving that house or that city to the consequences that would come from God.​..

"So they shook the dust off their feet against them and went to Iconium." Acts 13:51

However.....it isn't exactly the same in a forum, is it?

Would you stop posting about the Gospel to avoid any conflict with other posters - especially the new atheists?


Btw, Jesus strongly rebuked the Pharisees! I'm not saying we should therefore do the same.....but, look at all the disputes in John 8.


Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

Dispute Over Who Jesus Is

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

 

[Daisy]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Elvira needs "image repair?" I am going to write today's date down in big letters because today I have heard it all!!! Sheesh!

Hi Polgara...nice to see you...:2wave:

 

[Omega Man]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Passive-aggressiveness is in no way considered an act of innocence.


OM

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Absolutely...such pious behavior is not the way Jesus taught us to behave at all...Jesus forced his teachings on no one and he taught his apostles in the same way...

"And wherever people do not receive you, on going out of that city, shake the dust off your feet for a witness against them.” Luke 9:5

This practice also served as a witness in and of itself...“for a witness against them,” implying that Jesus’ followers were peacefully departing and leaving that house or that city to the consequences that would come from God.​..

"So they shook the dust off their feet against them and went to Iconium." Acts 13:51

Which is why is rarely respond to the most hateful or insulting posts directed to me.

 

[Daisy]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Which is why is rarely respond to the most hateful or insulting posts directed to me.

That's a good philosophy...

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Elvira needs "image repair?" I am going to write today's date down in big letters because today I have heard it all!!! Sheesh!

I suppose all of us--well, maybe not YOU --need a little image repair once in awhile. I know I am capable of being provoked to the point I behave out of character. But I agree. I haven't had any problems with Elvira even though we might disagree here and there.

 

[OlNate]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

The only thing you said that was controversial was in your very first sentence on this thread that inferred Elvira needs "image repair."

That seems to be the M.O. of a number of folks on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, etc. etc. etc. Even when they agree with somebody of the 'wrong ideology', they manage to get in a personal swipe at them as being inconsistent from what they usually are or reversing themselves or being hypocritical or some such.

And too many, if they disagree, don't rebut the expressed opinion with logic, reason, and/or better information, but call the other person stupid or some other ugly adjective and/or refer to their post as ignorant or hateful or stupid or some such, etc.

All that is decidedly unChristian and unworthy of those who claim to love God. I think the guy in the video in the OP is spot on.

Well, to be fair, I felt the image repair comment was apt, given the number of "JWs are right, Christians are wrong" threads Elvira has been posting lately. But the praise was sincere. If Elvira is honest, she'll admit that I supported her a number of times on here, before she began this little crusade of hers. It would be nice to see this attitude adopted going forward, which is why she got the kudos.

At any rate, going forward I will be careful not to comment positively on the posts of folks I've gotten into brawls with in the past, lest they be misconstrued as something more nefarious. The amount of pushback I've gotten in this thread makes that seem very unworthwhile.

One last time: While I couldn't watch the video, I agree wholeheartedly with the summary provided. May we all truly live it.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

However.....it isn't exactly the same in a forum, is it?

Would you stop posting about the Gospel to avoid any conflict with other posters - especially the new atheists?


Btw, Jesus strongly rebuked the Pharisees! I'm not saying we should therefore do the same.....but, look at all the disputes in John 8.


Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

Dispute Over Who Jesus Is

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

Jesus didn't rebuke anybody for a wrong expressed opinion, but thoughtfully countered it with a better truth.

As for the Pharisees, he did not condemn them for what they said but for what they DID. They were so politically correct that they shut out anybody who wasn't one of them. They made of themselves as the noble and righteous but failed to show kindness, love, charity, justice, mercy, faithfulness. Thus their words were empty and useless--as Paul described it, they were the same as a noisy gong or clanging symbol.

The guy in the video in the OP was spot on.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Well, to be fair, I felt the image repair comment was apt, given the number of "JWs are right, Christians are wrong" threads Elvira has been posting lately. But the praise was sincere. If Elvira is honest, she'll admit that I supported her a number of times on here, before she began this little crusade of hers. It would be nice to see this attitude adopted going forward, which is why she got the kudos.

At any rate, going forward I will be careful not to comment positively on the posts of folks I've gotten into brawls with in the past, lest they be misconstrued as something more nefarious. The amount of pushback I've gotten in this thread makes that seem very unworthwhile.

One last time: While I couldn't watch the video, I agree wholeheartedly with the summary provided. May we all truly live it.

I can accept that. And in all honesty I took that line as more teasing than critical. But it was so typical of the personally attacking way of how many debate, I had to mention it.

I hope you are able to watch the video later, because it was an excellent short discourse on the value of civil disagreement as opposed to the confrontational, personally destructive methods that is typical in on line interchanges. How wonderful it would be if we--if those in the church--if our elected representatives--if those in policy making positions--could actually discuss an issue or topic complete with all points of view instead of trying to diminish, belittle, or otherwise attack anybody who disagrees.

 

[OlNate]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

I can accept that. And in all honesty I took that line as more teasing than critical. But it was so typical of the personally attacking way of how many debate, I had to mention it.

I hope you are able to watch the video later, because it was an excellent short discourse on the value of civil disagreement as opposed to the confrontational, personally destructive methods that is typical in on line interchanges. How wonderful it would be if we--if those in the church--if our elected representatives--if those in policy making positions--could actually discuss an issue or topic complete with all points of view instead of trying to diminish, belittle, or otherwise attack anybody who disagrees.

You read it correctly, Owl. Thank you for that.

I am most certainly guilty of a flippant / sparring debate style. Perhaps something to work on in 2019...or, at least, being better at recognizing those who can handle it, and those who cannot. Ah well, if nothing else I'd like to think I've helped the JW's and the atheists in this thread to get along better by providing them with a common enemy, so that's something...hehe.

I'll definitely watch the video, though I'm certain it'll be preaching to the choir. Have a nice evening.

 

[polgara]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

I suppose all of us--well, maybe not YOU --need a little image repair once in awhile. I know I am capable of being provoked to the point I behave out of character. But I agree. I haven't had any problems with Elvira even though we might disagree here and there.

Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Differences of opinion doesn't always mean that someone is wrong, and I've never seen you provoked to rudeness in all the years I've been on DP! Your posts are thought-provoking, which is why we have the "like" button to let the poster know that we follow what they're saying. How alarming it must be to learn that one person will make all the decisions for everyone, which is what a One World Government run by a few elite living somewhere else on this planet would give us! Thanks to our Bill of Rights for the first amendment! :thumbs:

 

[nota bene]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

I was going to continue an earlier discussion, and would have probably been reprimanded for violating the mod warning if I wouldn't have scrolled up and read prior posts. Seems like you forgot to place the "W:20" in the thread title, Nota?

Just a heads up for anyone who may accidentally continue that line of conversation without catching the mod warning about it...

You're right; I noticed when I logged in ten minutes ago that I'd forgotten the "W" and fixed it.

Of course, it's also true that in a 2-page thread, I guess I'd expect those posting to have read the 19 preceding posts.

 

[nota bene]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

You read it correctly, Owl. Thank you for that.

I am most certainly guilty of a flippant / sparring debate style. Perhaps something to work on in 2019...or, at least, being better at recognizing those who can handle it, and those who cannot. Ah well, if nothing else I'd like to think I've helped the JW's and the atheists in this thread to get along better by providing them with a common enemy, so that's something...hehe.

I'll definitely watch the video, though I'm certain it'll be preaching to the choir. Have a nice evening.

Well, it does. "Lex" claims that he's "seen a lot of people who treat people horribly with their words," and he offers as examples those who cuss, call names, start arguments, and are verbally abusive. I can't say that I agree with the "a lot" and wonder what kind of folks he hangs with. But I do agree that there is too much online lashing out--telling another that he or she is pagan or going to hell or is a "false teacher" because the person doesn't share one's own beliefs.

Scolding and shaming others isn't the way; as "Lex" says, you're a fool if you have all this so-called "wisdom" but use it to insult or stir up anger. When others lash out, you really shouldn't be surprised if others lash out at you, and claiming that you're "only speaking the truth" won't work.

Actually, it's a lie you're telling yourself, IMO. If you're all about "contention," own it. I mean, how very interesting that so many on "both sides" have more interest in arguing in the open forum rather than enjoying hassle-free discussion in Philosophy or Theology.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Greetings, AlbqOwl. :2wave:

Differences of opinion doesn't always mean that someone is wrong, and I've never seen you provoked to rudeness in all the years I've been on DP! Your posts are thought-provoking, which is why we have the "like" button to let the poster know that we follow what they're saying. How alarming it must be to learn that one person will make all the decisions for everyone, which is what a One World Government run by a few elite living somewhere else on this planet would give us! Thanks to our Bill of Rights for the first amendment! :thumbs:

Aw thanks Polgara. You make me blush and I can't say I always deserve such a compliment. But it is appreciated nonetheless. Believe there are many all too eager to tell me how partisan, out of touch, etc. etc. etc.--mostly ignorant or stupid actually--I am. Hey I understand I'm up for the annual asshat award, whatever that is. But yes, the problem with the attitude of those who insult or pick fights instead of actually debating the concept are among those who would silence all dissent and/or different opinions if they could. And thank God we still live in a country where it is legal to resist them.

I still appreciate the OP a LOT though. THAT is what America and Americans should embrace. If we did, most of the divisions between us would be healed.

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Jesus didn't rebuke anybody for a wrong expressed opinion, but thoughtfully countered it with a better truth.

As for the Pharisees, he did not condemn them for what they said but for what they DID. They were so politically correct that they shut out anybody who wasn't one of them. They made of themselves as the noble and righteous but failed to show kindness, love, charity, justice, mercy, faithfulness. Thus their words were empty and useless--as Paul described it, they were the same as a noisy gong or clanging symbol.

The guy in the video in the OP was spot on.

The fact remains that......He didn't back down from creating a conflict!
We can even say that He started the conflict!


My point: how will we spread the Gospel - the TRUE Gospel - if we don't want to create some waves due to the message?

Our message is sure to ruffle some feathers: telling someone there is a God. telling someone his god isn't the true God. telling someone he's sinner and he needs salvation. telling someone his lifestyle is an offense to God. that he needs to change his ways.

Why did Jesus warn us that we'll be hated by the world? Because our message will be creating conflicts!
If we simply do all the Christian stuff but shut up about the Gospel - are we going to be hated at all? No!
We'll be loved!


In fact, a non-Christian just used an argument about something like that - twisting Jesus' teachings - and saying that Christians should be loved!



Lol. Did you see all the ruffled feathers of anti-Gods in this forum - that pursue every thread about God??


Elvira created this thread and gave that video for a reason.
Elvira had unwittingly opened a can of worms - or, she'd kicked some sleeping dogs.

I think - and this is just my own opinion - that it could be she's trying to appeal to those who are now aggressively exposing JW - something which she cannot defend in a logical head-to-head discussion, an attempt to get them to back down...............by USING THIS VIDEO! :lol:

Like I've said, a forum situation isn't like your everyday interaction with other people.
We come here to discuss and debate!



Thus I asked Elvira, will she stop posting anything that would get the rise out of posters?
Like the way she posted an attack on Trinitarians? Because, I can just as easily say that her post came out as a bait - to deliberately vex Trinitarians!

But of course, this is a forum. We know what to expect. Enter at your own risk.
If a Trinitarian doesn't want to read posts like Elivira's, then stay out of forums - especially the Religion section. And vice versa to anyone who doesn't want getting challenged.


Do we debate with people on the streets? Do I aggressively challenge JW or Mormons knocking on my door? I speak for myself - I don't!

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

I still appreciate the OP a LOT though. THAT is what America and Americans should embrace. If we did, most of the divisions between us would be healed.

That may be true when you speak about our world's politics.

But Christianity, is not speaking of this world's politics.

 

[it's just me]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Well, it does. "Lex" claims that he's "seen a lot of people who treat people horribly with their words," and he offers as examples those who cuss, call names, start arguments, and are verbally abusive. I can't say that I agree with the "a lot" and wonder what kind of folks he hangs with. But I do agree that there is too much online lashing out--telling another that he or she is pagan or going to hell or is a "false teacher" because the person doesn't share one's own beliefs.

Scolding and shaming others isn't the way; as "Lex" says, you're a fool if you have all this so-called "wisdom" but use it to insult or stir up anger. When others lash out, you really shouldn't be surprised if others lash out at you, and claiming that you're "only speaking the truth" won't work.

Actually, it's a lie you're telling yourself, IMO. If you're all about "contention," own it. I mean, how very interesting that so many on "both sides" have more interest in arguing in the open forum rather than enjoying hassle-free discussion in Philosophy or Theology.

Except sometimes it's the truth. Sometimes people do post false teachings, it doesn't matter whether they conflict with your beliefs or not. I'm pretty binary about that, if it's not true it's false. That said, if the purpose of the forum is to "discuss", not discussing it or at least pointing it out defeats the purpose for being here.

 

[tosca1]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

Jesus didn't rebuke anybody for a wrong expressed opinion, but thoughtfully countered it with a better truth.

It was a harsh rebuke, to say the least!

Just read some of His words towards them in Matthew 23! Read the seven woes!


And in John 8, He rebuked them for their opinion!


John 8

Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony

12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”



22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”




Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
Jesus’ Claims About Himself

48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.





*******Note: had to shorten the chapter. To be continued....too long.

 

[Logician Man]

Re: If you do this your religion is useless...

That may be true when you speak about our world's politics.

But Christianity, is not speaking of this world's politics.

If you actually believe Christianity hasn't become 'politicized', you are sadly mistaken. I refer you to the long time,on going, disgusting, despicable legacy of sexual abuse and the ensuing cover-ups from the Pope(s) down and lawsuits of the Roman Catholic Church, many of which have been all over the news recently.

 

[tosca1]

Continuation.....

As for the Pharisees, he did not condemn them for what they said but for what they DID. They were so politically correct that they shut out anybody who wasn't one of them.

They were so politically correct? And yet, they shut out certain people?
For one thing - how can one be politically correct, and yet not be inclusive? That's a contradiction!

They made of themselves as the noble and righteous but failed to show kindness, love, charity, justice, mercy, faithfulness. Thus their words were empty and useless--as Paul described it, they were the same as a noisy gong or clanging symbol.

In other words, they're hypocrites! (Matthew 23)


They also made a grievous offense by changing - adding - to God's words.

Unfortunately, the Pharisees gave equal authority to oral tradition, saying the traditions went all the way back to Moses. Evolving over the centuries, the Pharisaic traditions had the effect of adding to God’s Word, which is forbidden (Deuteronomy 4:2).

The Gospels abound with examples of the Pharisees treating their traditions as equal to God’s Word (Matthew 9:14; 15:1–9; 23:5; 23:16, 23; Luke 11:42).

Jesus applied the condemnation of Isaiah 29:13 to the Pharisees, saying, “Their teachings are merely human rules” (Mark 7:7).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Pharisees.html





Coincidentally, the Pharisees giving equal authority of oral traditions with God's Word remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses' giving equal authority of their organization with that of Jesus Christ (in their baptismal requirement).

 

[tosca1]

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
Jesus didn't rebuke anybody for a wrong expressed opinion, but thoughtfully countered it with a better truth.

Well.....they did express their opinion, and they got rebuked for it......again!



Mark 7

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”


9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.

11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)—
12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother.
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”





13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.
And you do many things like that.


Let me repeat: we cannot twist the Word of God around to suit whatever narrative we want.....
.....because, it will end up contradicting with certain parts of the Scriptures.

Conflict, or contradiction within the Scriptures: that's how we identify false teachings.

 

[tosca1]

An excellent video that surely gave me food for thought when I watched it...

The video - in turn - could very likely have been taken out of context......

......if the intended message of the OP seek to apply it to forums.


Surely, Lex Meyer isn't referring to forums or debates!