[W:1422] Federal Deficit Soars

[Bullseye]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

There is little point in debating 'fairness' because it's inherently subjective. Here we're limiting it to 1/3 of the tax burden - the federal income tax - ignoring other taxes and the rest of the economic system.



Some get more because they're rich, there are obviously others self made. Lots of Walton heirs - generations - will be born wealthy and die wealthy and have done nothing to earn a penny if that's what they want.

I don't have an objection to people getting rich because they're successful. I don't think worrying about their tax burden is worth doing because the rich own the levers of power and have all the influence they need to make their own arguments with Congress, state and local legislatures, etc. That's fine, and the bottom 99% can make their case. That's how it works, and I'm not worried in the slightest about them being taken advantage of by a system in which they control all the levers of power.



And, again, saying that as a goal is fine, but unless you support measures to make that a reality, just hollow words. Without assistance for college, there can be no "equal opportunity." Should we make college "free" like K-12, or just subsidize federal loans? Who knows, but if you don't find some way to subsidize education for the poor and middle class in this era, college and the rewards from advanced degrees will belong overwhelmingly to kids of rich parents. Healthcare is another example. If a family is a serious illness from bankruptcy, there can be no real economic equality of opportunity. If we don't have safety nets like unemployment insurance and EBT and the like, the only ones who can afford to risk it all are those who aren't risking their family's well being, food on the table, shelter, clothes by investing in a speculative startup.

So in a broad sense what we might call 'socialism' or wealth redistribution is necessary to even approach 'equality of opportunity.' We don't have to guess about this - world history was basically one long example of nearly all of society's rewards reserved for those born into positions of power and wealth. If you were poor, you didn't get an education - kids went to work as kids. The rich got educated and so all positions that required an education went only to them, with incredibly rare exceptions.

LOL, not even going to try to respond - I sense a character counter waiting to spring if I make any effort to address the issues above in any detail. Just one quick observation: if, indeed, the rich "own all the levers of power and influence" why are they paying all the taxes?

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What IF, like me, they were born here, rasied here and plan to stay here? They must stfu and take what is handed to them without a peep?

Yes. They were born into a country that is a republic. It has a constitution. It is a federated republic. It has multiple layers of governments, each created by a constitution.

It they plan to stay here, the must stfu and take what is handed to them. By planning to stay here, they are choosing to live under this form of government.

You obviously don't want to live under this form of government. There are many socialist governments out there. You are completely free to immigrate to one of them, just like people all over the world fight like hell to escape their country they were born into and immigrate to the United States.

NOTHING in their post demands any such thing.

Yes it does, liar. You are advocating socialism. Socialism can only exist through theft.

 

[imagep]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Obama was a socialist. His favorite form was by fascism, not communism. He usually liked oligarchies to implement it. An example is ObamaCare.

Socialism is the distribution of wealth by theft to those who didn't earn it. It can only exist under oligarchies and dictatorships. It can only exist by forcing it upon people.

It takes two forms: communism an fascism.

Under communism, the government outright takes your property. No one owns property except the government. All businesses, factories, etc. are government owned and run. An example of this are the concrete and steel industries owned by the Chinese government.

Under fascism, the government lets you keep the property (or business), but tells you how to run it. They will tell you what product you can make, who you can sell it to, how much you can charge, when you can sell it, etc. But YOU take all the risk for starting the business. It's like stealing your property without actually stealing your property. You may own it, but you have no or very limited control over it.

These are the two forms of socialism (and Marxism). While socialism is older than Karl Marx, Marx did manage to distill down in writing the principles of it.

Marx is wrong. You cannot improve society by stealing wealth from those who produce it and distributing it to those who don't.

Only capitalism can create wealth. It needs no government to function. It conforms to the free market. That market is immortal. You can't kill it. You can drive it underground, but it's still there. It still functions. If capitalism is allowed to run free, prosperity will follow.

Can you provide us with any examples of capitalistic countries that have no governments?

 

[Bullseye]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What makes you think they are? Just because they pay more or than most people do? How do you know that what they pay is more than their "fair share"? I suppose "fair share" is the issue, how do you define that?

I'm not one the ones that uses "fair share" as a bludgeon, those are the ones that need to provide the definition. I said above I supported a progressive tax system, which we have.

 

[imagep]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Yes. They were born into a country that is a republic. It has a constitution. It is a federated republic. It has multiple layers of governments, each created by a constitution.

It they plan to stay here, the must stfu and take what is handed to them. By planning to stay here, they are choosing to live under this form of government.

You obviously don't want to live under this form of government. There are many socialist governments out there. You are completely free to immigrate to one of them, just like people all over the world fight like hell to escape their country they were born into and immigrate to the United States.


Yes it does, liar. You are advocating socialism. Socialism can only exist through theft.

Taxation is not theft, it's paying your government bill, just like your electricity bill or clothing bill.

If you don't like the fact that the US has a government, then you obviously hate America. Maybe you can find some governmentless/taxless/capitalistic country to move to.

 

[imagep]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I'm not one the ones that uses "fair share" as a bludgeon, those are the ones that need to provide the definition. I said above I supported a progressive tax system, which we have.

Then what makes you think that the rich pay too much?

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I never claimed the rich were born rich. What I'm observing is the fact that in recent DECADES, the vast amount of gains have gone to a small sliver at the top.

Far more than just decades, fella. The rich gain more because they risk more. It has always been that way.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I said some spending, not all. I thought as much though. :lamo

Why? The one of the primary purposes of the federal government is to provide a common defense.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I don't know what that means or why you're inserting yourself into the middle of conversations only to present unintelligible drivel.

Then go learn the math. If you are going to present a math argument, you should probably know what you're talking about.

 

[Bullseye]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Then what makes you think that the rich pay too much?

Sorry, I've got trapped in your little semantic games before. Go find another playmate.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

LOL, not even going to try to respond - I sense a character counter waiting to spring if I make any effort to address the issues above in any detail. Just one quick observation: if, indeed, the rich "own all the levers of power and influence" why are they paying all the taxes?

They're not paying all the taxes.

 

[Threegoofs]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Taxation is not theft, it's paying your government bill, just like your electricity bill or clothing bill.

If you don't like the fact that the US has a government, then you obviously hate America. Maybe you can find some governmentless/taxless/capitalistic country to move to.

I highly recommend Somalia.

It’s a libertarian dream.

 

[imagep]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Sorry, I've got trapped in your little semantic games before. Go find another playmate.

I don't think either one of us has ever responded to the other before. You have me confused with someone else.

I asked you a straight up question, you can't seem to give a straight up answer. That's OK, you can take your ball and go home.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Then go learn the math. If you are going to present a math argument, you should probably know what you're talking about.

Or how about you don't butt into conversations not involving you to simply dismiss any data anyone can present on topic? That would be nice.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I'm not making up data - I'm citing my sources.

You are citing sources that made up data. You failed to recognize that it made up data.

And if you believe all government data is bad data,

I don't.

then there is no way to legitimately evaluate any claim about the budget, spending, taxes, etc. because there is no source for that data other than government.

Actually there is.

If that's your position, fine, then ignore all discussions of those subjects and we'll all be better off.

No you won't. You'll spend your time arguing over one person's random numbers are better than another person's random numbers.

You're not presenting an argument except, paraphrased, "you're wrong! bad data!!"

That's an argument, dude.

It's boring as hell, and tedious to read through for the rest of us having a discussion.

Too bad you find it boring. Learn the math.

I don't care about your opinion

It's not opinion. It's math.

if your position depends entirely on dismissing any data any of can produce on these topics.

It doesn't.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Far more than just decades, fella. The rich gain more because they risk more. It has always been that way.

Not really. For decades productivity gains were pretty evenly distributed between the various income levels, with the rich and poor getting richer as the economy became more productive. That relationship broke down a few decades ago.

I'd present the data, but you'd just dismiss it out of hand without making any counter argument...

 

[rickc]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

we are really not talking about the rich or poor. we are talking about the huge middle. what happened in the 1980's that caused the top 5% and above to expand their wealth while leaving the other 95% to just a 0.45 growth rate?

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can anyone answer my question? what happened in the 1980's to bring about such a drastic change?

 

[Hedgology]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

can anyone answer my question? what happened in the 1980's to bring about such a drastic change?

Nothing happen...

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

You are citing sources that made up data. You failed to recognize that it made up data.

I don't.

Actually there is.

No you won't. You'll spend your time arguing over one person's random numbers are better than another person's random numbers.

That's an argument, dude.

Too bad you find it boring. Learn the math.

It's not opinion. It's math.

It doesn't.

:2wave:

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Funny, because my argument you quoted isn't about "GDP" but the distribution of GDP growth. They aren't the same thing. And I wasn't making a point about "government revenue" but the allocation of that total burden among its taxpaying residents.

You were trying to make a point about GDP, the distribution of GDP, government revenue, etc. You're denying your own arguments, even though you were moving the goalpost as fast as possible to avoid getting trapped.

Now you want to bring a completely different topic, the allocation of the tax burden.

Do you know what a contextomy fallacy is?

And if levying taxes is to steal wealth, whatever floats your boat.

Taxes is wealth taken by force. It is stealing wealth. Deny it if you want, but it is what it is.

It's a necessary evil in a developed country,

Ah. So NOW you are calling it 'evil'. Before you were pushing for them! Make up your mind, dude!

and how the bill is allocated is a political decision,

Yes it is.

influenced by the electorate.

Yup. That's part of why Trump won.

If you have a better idea, make an argument.

Okay. Since SPENDING is the problem, and since the federal government has branched out into many areas not authorized by its constitution, I'd say it's high time to utterly ELIMINATE most departments in the federal government. It's high time to return to the constitution that defined that government and limits its power and authority to a specific list.

You're just throwing rocks at this point, which is boring.

No, I am making an argument using the math involved and how you are pushing a chart based on bad math. That is not a rock, that is an argument.

 

[Bullseye]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

They're not paying all the taxes.

Please tell me you're not going to trot out the "sales tax, FICA, property tax" non sequitur. This thread is about the federal deficit, not every cat and dog taxation you can drag up.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I say we should, and then have the world call in our debt. Our global buying power would drop so dramatically, manufacturing here would become cheaper.

A repeat of the 'beggar thy neighbor' policy, eh? Unfortunately, other nations will simply do the same to us. Indeed, they already are.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Please tell me you're not going to trot out the "sales tax, FICA, property tax" non sequitur. This thread is about the federal deficit, not every cat and dog taxation you can drag up.

We simply need to reduce the largest spending to have impact, and the largest spending is social subsidies.

For the future, I propose that nobody gets to deduct children born starting the calendar year 2020. families need to plan to their lifestyle income without tax deductions for offspring. It's simple. If you can't afford children, then don't have them. This is one thing that can reduce future expenditures.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Helping is one thing. Having over $25k out of my pay each year to the government is unnecessary.

Uncecessary? That's a subjective term, don't you think? What is 'necessary'?

Here I believe the Constitution of the United States itself gives a good answer.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Meanwhile.. excessive spending is palatable under republicans.. because they are seen as more deficit hawks.

since most people have no clue what government spending really is.. what its spent on and so forth.... its much easier for them to accept spending from republicans because they assume its fiscally responsible.

you said "excessive spending is palatable", meaning the spending is known and judged as "good", it was tasted......but then you argue people "have no clue what government spending really is", which undercuts the whole idea that they tasted it in the first place.

Stick to data based argument, leave the fiction for others.