[W:1422] Federal Deficit Soars

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I wasn't blaming anyone, just pointing out if someone wants to claim the Democrats taking the House in 2006 caused the bubble bursting, they'll need to point to some event, some act, that caused the bubble to burst that was the responsibility of Democrats in the House.

There is no such event or act, which was my point actually.

Never said that but Democrats are just as responsible as Bush unless you want to run on policies that don't promote home ownership. I gave you a list of people who were responsible but those who focus on 2006 on are short term thinkers and total partisans. The bubble started in the late 90's

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

They don't teach gibberish, that's for sure, which leaves me unable to reply to your post. I'm sorry about that.

They obviously don't teach the ability to do research either as I am still waiting for the treasury data to support your claim that tax revenue dropped after tax cuts were fully implemented? Can't explain how three years of tax cuts generated over 60% in FIT revenue growth?? I can, jobs were created and workers paying taxes!! Almost 17 million new taxpayers

 

[Floridafan]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Bubbles don't form over night, they form over years and started with the dot com bubble bursting and federal reserve lowering rates. continuing to blame Bush and ignoring history and civics doesn't do much for your credibility. Do they teach civics in Tenn?

What happened on Bush's watch is entirely his fault, just like you blamed Obama for everything that happened during his 8 years.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Never said that but Democrats are just as responsible as Bush unless you want to run on policies that don't promote home ownership. I gave you a list of people who were responsible but those who focus on 2006 on are short term thinkers and total partisans. The bubble started in the late 90's

OK, has nothing to do with any of my previous comments, but whatever. My focus was on 2006 and 2007 because the comment I responded to made a tentative link between Democrats taking the House in 2007 and the crash.

So it's a mystery why you jumped in to comment on things we weren't discussing and I never alleged and quoted me then made a comment that had literally nothing at all to do with my comment or the conversation.

 

[Bullseye]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

"They" caused what in the first place - what is "it?"

The housing/subprime mortgage bubble that caused the recession.

It's funny that you give credit to Bush II and the GOP Congress for the economy, but blame Democrats for the bubble forming which was a huge part of the economic boom, and also blame Democrats for the bubble bursting. It's almost like you give credit to the GOP for the good stuff, and blame Democrats for the bad, for no reason other than partisanship! :roll:

Bubbles always burst, that's why they're called "bubbles". As to the bubble being a "huge part" of the economic boom, I don't think it was as big a factor as you think.

We can argue this back and forth, and I might even agree with you if there hadn't been several other instances where we dropped tax rates and similar notable increases in revenues didn't ensue; far larger than the "population growth plus inflation" meme can explain.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

They obviously don't teach the ability to do research either as I am still waiting for the treasury data to support your claim that tax revenue dropped after tax cuts were fully implemented? Can't explain how three years of tax cuts generated over 60% in FIT revenue growth?? I can, jobs were created and workers paying taxes!! Almost 17 million new taxpayers

C, we've had this discussion many times before. If you want to move the goal posts from the current period to the Reagan years, start a new thread where I won't post on it because I have no interest in debating this topic with you for the 18th time.

 

[thenotorious]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Having one with more spendable income doesn't make one richer just gives them more money to spend. What is your problem with individuals earning more money than you. It is gross income that sets the income classes and levels, not net income

How does a rich person take advantage of a poor person? You pick and choose where you buy your goods and services and if you don't like some rich person, don't buy from them. It is a sad state of affairs when people like you have such class envy and never answer the question, how does any rich person prevent you from joining them? How does any rich person hurt you, your family, or the country?

You aren't concerned just make things up and buy what you are told. that is every bit as bad as claiming you aren't concerned

How does extra cash not make someone more wealthy? Seriously? :lamo

How does a rich person take advantage of a poor person? Have you read a history book? They've been doing it since the dawn of time. Saying, "just don't buy essential things" is a very easy thing to say from a position of power. People don't have a choice, and in many cases people don't even have a choice using your own flawed logic.

I also don't have class envy. And rich people HAVE NEVER prevented people from joining them. Not from the middle-ages till now. Even saying so shows you clearly don't understand the difference between impossibility and near impossibility. Do you think it's possible for every person in this country to become billionaires? It's not possible. Most of them can't even get an education without accumulating enormous debt. I'm not concerned with making them billionaires though, I'm concerned with giving them a comfortable life which is otherwise difficult to attain in this country.

You want to know why? You want reasons why rich people are the cause of this? I'll give you 5 examples.

1. What happens when it is easier to ship jobs overseas?
2. What happens when machinery becomes cheaper than manual labor?
3. What happens when executives make bad decisions?
4. What happens when executives take a lion's share of the wealth?
5. What happens when wealthy people are allowed to donate as much as they want to Super PACs?

I can go on an on. Amazing how conservatives have grasped the ideology that people are individualistic and will do what is in the best interest for themselves but can't apply that same idea to societal economics to understand how that is bad. Having some rich people and a successful economy are not synonymous.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

The housing/subprime mortgage bubble that caused the recession.

Interesting that the Democrats caused the housing and subprime bubble. As I recall, and history tells us, the GOP controlled the house and senate from 1995-2007. So how exactly did Democrats cause those problems, and the GOP shares in none of the blame, despite controlling the House, Senate, and WH from 2001-2007?

Bubbles always burst, that's why they're called "bubbles". As to the bubble being a "huge part" of the economic boom, I don't think it was as big a factor as you think.

So how much a factor was it? This is why we use studies to tell us the role of taxes, interest rates, housing prices, and the like. No doubt easy credit was a huge boost to economic activity. Here's one analysis: https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2006/09/gdp-growth-with-and-without-mortgage.html

Using this method, the surge in MEW in the mid to late '80s boosted GDP by an average of about 0.5% per year. Over the last five years, MEW has boosted GDP by an average of 2.2% per year!

Seems pretty big to me - that's the majority of total GDP growth, just from home equity withdrawals (MEW). Here's a graph that shows the share of GDP growth explained by MEW - see the link above for a bigger graph.



For example, in 2005 GDP growth was 3%, and without MEW only 1%, so MEW explained fully 2/3 of GDP growth. Similar numbers in 2006.

We can argue this back and forth, and I might even agree with you if there hadn't been several other instances where we dropped tax rates and similar notable increases in revenues didn't ensue; far larger than the "population growth plus inflation" meme can explain.

I think there's a typo, but I am not arguing that "population growth plus inflation" are sufficient to explain changes in tax revenues. Interest rates, for example, are far more important. During the Clinton years the tech boom explains a lot, commodity prices during some periods explain booms or busts, wars, war spending, world economy, etc. They're all important, and so you can't say, "tax rates went down, GDP went up, therefore the tax cuts caused GDP to go up, and we need look at nothing else. That's illogical.

 

[Tettsuo]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Actually I don't think its that odd.. its the politics. Being fiscally conservative is generally not popular... unless its the "other guy" that's getting cut.

I would suspect that spending cuts under democrats are more palatable because democrats are seen as big spenders.

Meanwhile.. excessive spending is palatable under republicans.. because they are seen as more deficit hawks.

Lets not forget that it goes back and forth.

Clinton got elected by lambasting Bush for increasing taxes.....

Politicians playing politics isn't odd. What's odd is the persistent believe that Democrats are fiscally unsound and Republicans are, despite the facts.

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What happened on Bush's watch is entirely his fault, just like you blamed Obama for everything that happened during his 8 years.

Yep, amazing how Democrats took total control of Congress in 2007 and had absolutely nothing to do with the deficits as Bush had total spending and legislative authority given to a King. What a dumb ass statement. You want me to give Obama credit for the worst recovery in history, ok, you got it. You want me to thank Obama for losing the House in 10-12 and Congress in 14-16, you got it. You want me to thank Obama for giving us Trump. you got it, THANK YOU OBAMA!!

Bush is responsible for the results during his entire 8 years including the results of the recession, that isn't to say he was solely responsible for it and you ought to know that

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

How does extra cash not make someone more wealthy? Seriously? :lamo

How does a rich person take advantage of a poor person? Have you read a history book? They've been doing it since the dawn of time. Saying, "just don't buy essential things" is a very easy thing to say from a position of power. People don't have a choice, and in many cases people don't even have a choice using your own flawed logic.

I also don't have class envy. And rich people HAVE NEVER prevented people from joining them. Not from the middle-ages till now. Even saying so shows you clearly don't understand the difference between impossibility and near impossibility. Do you think it's possible for every person in this country to become billionaires? It's not possible. Most of them can't even get an education without accumulating enormous debt. I'm not concerned with making them billionaires though, I'm concerned with giving them a comfortable life which is otherwise difficult to attain in this country.

You want to know why? You want reasons why rich people are the cause of this? I'll give you 5 examples.

1. What happens when it is easier to ship jobs overseas?
2. What happens when machinery becomes cheaper than manual labor?
3. What happens when executives make bad decisions?
4. What happens when executives take a lion's share of the wealth?
5. What happens when wealthy people are allowed to donate as much as they want to Super PACs?

I can go on an on. Amazing how conservatives have grasped the ideology that people are individualistic and will do what is in the best interest for themselves but can't apply that same idea to societal economics to understand how that is bad. Having some rich people and a successful economy are not synonymous.

Extra cash gives them more spendable income but you have no idea what their expenses are but that is beside the point, are you ever going to explain how tax cuts during the Reagan and Bush years increased FIT revenue? Are you ever going to admit that tax cuts don't have to be paid for? What is your problem with people having more than you have or keeping more of what they earn?

 

[rickc]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

here is an interesting group of graphs. seems lowering tax rates has little effect on GDP or Tax Revenues. But clearly Reagan's tax cuts and those since have had a large effect on income. Rich get richer and income growth for everyone else have been flat or reduced.

 

[thenotorious]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Extra cash gives them more spendable income but you have no idea what their expenses are but that is beside the point, are you ever going to explain how tax cuts during the Reagan and Bush years increased FIT revenue? Are you ever going to admit that tax cuts don't have to be paid for? What is your problem with people having more than you have or keeping more of what they earn?

What expenses? Their yacht payment? :lamo Their "expenses" are possessions that are accounted for in their wealth, and they hardly lose value if at all. Unless your dumping money in country club memberships or bad investments, but that's your own problem.

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/beltway/files/2014/09/Revenue-by-Source-9-2-14.v3.gif?

Would you like to spew more FAKE NEWS?

Tax cuts don't have to be paid for? Then why are we paying interest on debt as part of our expenditures?

Among everything you get wrong, the most amusing is this idea you keep insinuating that I have a personal problem with people being wealthier than me. I get why you might have that problem considering how self-centered you are, but you thinking that I am considering my clear and differing values is ludicrous. Nonetheless, I've already explained what my exact problems are that you are still unable to comprehend. It's not about people being wealthier than me, or even others. I'm in favor of income inequality in moderation. I'm also in favor of what you pointed out and that is people keeping what they have earned. That is not happening in this country. That is the problem. Income inequality is too high, that is also a problem. People can't even afford basic things guaranteed to us by our constitution. That is the ultimate problem.

 

[Conservative]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What expenses? Their yacht payment? :lamo Their "expenses" are possessions that are accounted for in their wealth, and they hardly lose value if at all. Unless your dumping money in country club memberships or bad investments, but that's your own problem.

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/beltway/files/2014/09/Revenue-by-Source-9-2-14.v3.gif?

Would you like to spew more FAKE NEWS?

Tax cuts don't have to be paid for? Then why are we paying interest on debt as part of our expenditures?

Among everything you get wrong, the most amusing is this idea you keep insinuating that I have a personal problem with people being wealthier than me. I get why you might have that problem considering how self-centered you are, but you thinking that I am considering my clear and differing values is ludicrous. Nonetheless, I've already explained what my exact problems are that you are still unable to comprehend. It's not about people being wealthier than me, or even others. I'm in favor of income inequality in moderation. I'm also in favor of what you pointed out and that is people keeping what they have earned. That is not happening in this country. That is the problem. Income inequality is too high, that is also a problem. People can't even afford basic things guaranteed to us by our constitution.

You know, I lose sleep every night about rich people and their expenses. Really sad that it bothers you so much what someone else makes but not enough for you to join them. too bad, hard work, risk taking don't seem to be in your work ethic.

You want to make this about me which is typical of most leftwing radicals to divert from reality. let me make it clear to you, here is reality

Reagan 1.7 trillion
GHW Bush 1.4 trillion
GW Bush 4.9 trillion

Total DEBT 8.0 trillion in 20 years

Clinton 1.4 trillion
Obama 9.3 trillion

Total 10.7 trillion in 16 years

Now all of a sudden you give a damn about debt? you are a hypocrite. After 8 years of Obama people still cannot afford the basic things?? Really? based upon what? you are easily influenced by the leftwing and they love it.'

We pay debt service on DEBT not tax cuts that grow revenue. You think that tax cuts actually reduce revenue? Then be the first to post the data proving that

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Politicians playing politics isn't odd. What's odd is the persistent believe that Democrats are fiscally unsound and Republicans are, despite the facts.

And the persistent belief that republicans hate poor people.... etc. despite the facts.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Meanwhile.. excessive spending is palatable under republicans.. because they are seen as more deficit hawks.

Wait....whut? How does this work?

 

[Floridafan]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Yep, amazing how Democrats took total control of Congress in 2007 and had absolutely nothing to do with the deficits as Bush had total spending and legislative authority given to a King. What a dumb ass statement. You want me to give Obama credit for the worst recovery in history, ok, you got it. You want me to thank Obama for losing the House in 10-12 and Congress in 14-16, you got it. You want me to thank Obama for giving us Trump. you got it, THANK YOU OBAMA!!

Bush is responsible for the results during his entire 8 years including the results of the recession, that isn't to say he was solely responsible for it and you ought to know that

Who was responsible for Bush's recession?
Republicans controlled the nations purse strings for 6 of Obamas 8 years!

 

[rickc]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

You know, I lose sleep every night about rich people and their expenses. Really sad that it bothers you so much what someone else makes but not enough for you to join them. too bad, hard work, risk taking don't seem to be in your work ethic.

You want to make this about me which is typical of most leftwing radicals to divert from reality. let me make it clear to you, here is reality

Reagan 1.7 trillion
GHW Bush 1.4 trillion
GW Bush 4.9 trillion

Total DEBT 8.0 trillion in 20 years

Clinton 1.4 trillion
Obama 9.3 trillion

Total 10.7 trillion in 16 years

Now all of a sudden you give a damn about debt? you are a hypocrite. After 8 years of Obama people still cannot afford the basic things?? Really? based upon what? you are easily influenced by the leftwing and they love it.'

We pay debt service on DEBT not tax cuts that grow revenue. You think that tax cuts actually reduce revenue? Then be the first to post the data proving that

typical rightie redirect. Class Envy.

when the facts are every since Reagan and his tax cuts for the rich trickle down economic theory the top 1% of Americans have seen their wealth explode while the 90% of the rest of America has stayed the same or lost ground.

just a fact. not jealousy. lots of propaganda out there about why. but the real reason is the tax code. as long as the 1% control our government it will not change. lots of complaining out there but the same old bought and paid for representatives keep getting reelected.

15% long term capital gains rate.
long term capital gains: assets held over 1 year. should be at least 5. less than 5 taxed at the regular income rate.
no social security or medicare tax paid on that money. i believe it should.
take out the writeoffs and loopholes

now i would go with a flat tax under this scenario
mandatory balanced federal budget
tax rate set by what it takes to balance the budget and pay a percentage of the federal debt off
Congress cuts spending we get a tax cut. they raise spending taxes go up.
first $35,000 not taxed
all income from whatever source taxed the same
no loopholes, writeoffs or other tax schemes
mandatory spending comes out of the general fund but remains mandatory. no payroll taxes
single payer health care modeled on Medicare.
i could.go on but that is enough for now

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

The report cited looks at FY18 so far, not the 1st quarter, and I'm glad the recovery is continuing....but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that supply-side trickle is going to elevate GDP or federal revenue, it never has.

Stick your head in the sand then. It's happened before and it will happen again.

Getting government out of the way of conducting business is the surest method there is to improve the business climate and the economy.

 

[thenotorious]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

You know, I lose sleep every night about rich people and their expenses. Really sad that it bothers you so much what someone else makes but not enough for you to join them. too bad, hard work, risk taking don't seem to be in your work ethic.

You want to make this about me which is typical of most leftwing radicals to divert from reality. let me make it clear to you, here is reality

Reagan 1.7 trillion
GHW Bush 1.4 trillion
GW Bush 4.9 trillion

Total DEBT 8.0 trillion in 20 years

Clinton 1.4 trillion
Obama 9.3 trillion

Total 10.7 trillion in 16 years

Now all of a sudden you give a damn about debt? you are a hypocrite. After 8 years of Obama people still cannot afford the basic things?? Really? based upon what? you are easily influenced by the leftwing and they love it.'

We pay debt service on DEBT not tax cuts that grow revenue. You think that tax cuts actually reduce revenue? Then be the first to post the data proving that

In one ear, out the other with you. Debating is clearly pointless when you just make things up.

You can't just compare dollars, because not every dollar weighs the same. Conservatives had MUCH higher increases in debt. It's irrefutable fact, while it wasn't always the case. It has been since Reaganomics which has pushed income inequality back to pre-civilized times.

Obama also inherited a recession. With lower tax revenues, with companies collapsing, and an economy that needed to be revitalized. A majority of his debt is a result of Bush's economic policies, also irrefutable fact. It stabilizes towards the end of his presidency, just like Clinton. Unlike the conservatives.

I'd say most democrats care about debt considering they've been the party keen on balancing the budget and being fiscally responsible. Unlike Conservatives who like big wars to put money in the rich people's pocket, big tax cuts to money in the rich people's pocket, bloated healthcare and education systems to foster more inequality, and myriad of other policies to ensure the rich get richer.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

It's an ad hominem attack - you dismissed the argument based on the source, and you have no evidence the analysis was in any way incorrect.

No, I dismissed it because a speculation of assignment of data using speculated data. Fallacy fallacy. BTW, an ad hominem is not dismissing an argument based on the source. That is a different fallacy, which also did not actually occur.

And I don't know what office you're talking about, nor have you shown any evidence this unknown office "normally" puts out "stuff like this" which is undefined. Like what?

Maybe you should read the source printed on your graph. Then look up the history of this office.

 

[Into the Night]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Sure, and we were in 2007 at the top of a massive bubble, and when it collapsed revenues collapsed with them, as they must. The telling thing there is after the tax cuts, and after a years long bubble produced mania in debt and housing, the federal budget STILL ran large deficits. The reason for that is individual income tax receipts took until roughly 2006, the actual top of the housing bubble, to reach the same level as the last year of the Clinton administration, despite the bubble and fake boom.

And another person who dismisses data because of the source but has no other data to present an alternative view. This is why I left the GOP, because I was forced to do things like that to avoid confronting the rot at the heart of GOP fiscal policy.

You seem to not understand the name of that particular fallacy, or even whether it's occurring.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Wait....whut? How does this work?

I think its pretty self evident..

but do you really want to know.. or you just going to your usual and argue for the sake of arguing?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Stick your head in the sand then. It's happened before and it will happen again.

When did it happen before?

Getting government out of the way of conducting business is the surest method there is to improve the business climate and the economy.

Sure, Ayn.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Meanwhile.. excessive spending is palatable under republicans.. because they are seen as more deficit hawks.

I think its pretty self evident..

but do you really want to know.. or you just going to your usual and argue for the sake of arguing?

What you posted is contradictory....and supposedly it is "palatable" while being contradictory.

It is just another one of these strange comments that make no sense that you come up with from time to time.