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[W:1303]***To Believe or Not To Believe

Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I'm not trying to have a negative proven. I'm just inquiring about concrete reasons for your claim about "imaginary beings" (God, the divine Jesus Christ). If a person makes such a claim they should provide the evidence to back up that claim. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, not on the believer. Otherwise you just have an opinion. If you have more then I'd like to see it.

You are attempting to force a negative proof. That is called an argument of ignorance fallacy.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

There's no legitimate foundation for a lot of things, including your disbelief and DENIAL of evidences.

Actually, his disbelief is a belief. He is right to deny supporting evidence as a proof. The same thing works in reverse.

It is not possible to prove the existence of any god, gods, or spirits. It is not possible to prove no god, gods, or spirits exist. Any attempt to prove either statement is a circular argument fallacy. This is what a fundamentalist does.

Most atheists are fundamentalists.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Apparently, many people who claim to be relgious are mixing up the concepts of 'evidence' and 'claims'.

Quite true. The reason is they are trying to prove their position, which is not possible.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

You Can Prove a Negative
Can't prove a negative? Sure you can!

One reason that some people suppose science and reason are incapable of establishing beyond reasonable doubt that certain supernatural claims—for example, that fairies or angels or spirit beings exist—are false, is that they assume you can't prove a negative. Indeed this is widely supposed to be some sort of "law of logic."
For example, Georgia minister Dr. Nelson L. Price asserts on his website that "one of the laws of logic is that you can't prove a negative." If Price is correct and this is indeed a law of logic, then of course it immediately follows that we can't prove that there are no fairies, angels, or spirit beings, or, indeed, that there is no god. We will have established that the nonexistence of God is indeed beyond the ability of reason and/or science to establish!

The fact is, however, that this supposed "law of logic" is no such thing. As Steven D. Hales points in his paper "You Can Prove a Negative," "You can't prove a negative" is a principle of folk logic, not actual logic.

Notice, for a start, that "You cannot prove a negative" is itself a negative. So, if it were true, it would itself be unprovable. Notice that any claim can be transformed into a negative by a little rephrasing—most obviously, by negating the claim and then negating it again. "I exist" is logically equivalent to "I do not not exist," which is a negative. Yet here is a negative it seems I might perhaps be able to prove (in the style of Descartes—I think, therefore I do not not exist!)

Of course, those who say "You can't prove a negative" will insist that I have misunderstood their point. As Hales notes, when people say, "You can't prove a negative," what they really mean is that you cannot prove that something does not exist. If this point were correct, it would apply not just to supernatural beings lying beyond the cosmic veil but also to things that might be supposed to exist on this side of the veil, such as unicorns, Martians, rabbits with twenty heads, and so on. We would not be able to prove the nonexistence of any of these things either...

Let's sum up. If "you can't prove a negative" means you can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that certain things don't exist, then the claim is just false. We prove the nonexistence of things on a regular basis. If, on the other hand, "you can't prove a negative" means you cannot prove beyond all possible doubt that something does not exist, well, that may, arguably, be true. But so what? That point is irrelevant so far as defending beliefs in supernatural entities against the charge that science and/or reason have established beyond reasonable doubt that they don't exist.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Actually, his disbelief is a belief. He is right to deny supporting evidence as a proof. The same thing works in reverse.

It is not possible to prove the existence of any god, gods, or spirits. It is not possible to prove no god, gods, or spirits exist. Any attempt to prove either statement is a circular argument fallacy. This is what a fundamentalist does.

Most atheists are fundamentalists.

All atheists lack belief in god. You don't know what most anybody is at all. You have no evidence, just weak opinion. Most people who claim they know what most people are are full of prune juice.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

No intuition is not perception. It's insight and belief.
Kindly read the opening passage of the Stanford entry to get some sense of the meaning of intuition I rely on.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intuition/


I use the term "Godhead" to mean Divine Reality or Ultimate Spiritual Reality in order to distinguish it from particular religious conceptions of what that Divine Reality is all about.


I have an intuition (insight) and infer and extrapolate from that intuition.
You lack that intuition and infer and extrapolate from the absence of that intuition.

I no more have to demonstrate to you than you have to demonstrate to me this intuition of lack of intuition, nor could either of us do so.

Sounds like making stuff up.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Correct. They had a belief about a god, gods, or spirits that caused disease instead.
Why do you keep adding “as the cause of disease?” What are you claiming was believed instead of the simple existence of microorganisms irespective of any function?

I believe you are manufacturing this story.
But what did you believe on the topic or what did you believe instead LAST WEEK BEFORE I BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC?

Neither do I care. Whether you or your brother (if you even have one) is a better bowler is irrelevant.
The subject itself is irrelevant, sure, but it demonstrates my point that you can lack a belief without having an alternate belief.


The existence of a god, gods, or spirits is not a description of a bowling skill.
Irrelevant. We were talking about belief in general. It is possible

But you HAVE thought about it. That's why you have the belief you have. You even answer my questions on the subject. That means you thought about it.
Well, for me personally, I have no idea what a god is supposed to be. So, no, I don’t have a belief instead.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Fine. If you want to say you believe in two incompatible beliefs at the same time, who am I to stop you?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's YOU that's wrong? Nah.... :roll:
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The existence of the Bible itself. Life itself. The Earth itself. The fact that prayers have been 'answered'. The numbers of people that believe the same thing.

Similarly, the concrete, objective evidence that the assumptions of atheism stand up on is Life itself, the Earth itself, the numbers of people that believe in the same thing, etc.

I think you will find that supporting evidence doesn't really mean anything. That's why science doesn't use it.

All of which is the argument from ignorance. In order for any of those claims to be rationally valid, you'd have to demonstrate that your claim and the CAUSE for your claim be verifiably causally linked. You cannot just say "this thing I don't understand happened, therefore my god did it". You can't say that you don't know how something happened, then make up an explanation out of whole cloth. That is exactly what the religious do and they are entirely blinded by the fallaciousness of it all.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

"I think you will find that supporting evidence doesn't really mean anything. That's why science doesn't use it." :lamo:lamo:lamo
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

All atheists lack belief in god. You don't know what most anybody is at all. You have no evidence, just weak opinion. Most people who claim they know what most people are are full of prune juice.
Your first and last sentences make you "full of prune juice."
The lack of self-awareness of this post is brilliant!
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Your first and last sentences make you "full of prune juice."
The lack of self-awareness of this post is brilliant!

I know what you are. I'm glad most people aren't like that.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The existence of the Bible itself. Life itself. The Earth itself. The fact that prayers have been 'answered'. The numbers of people that believe the same thing.

Similarly, the concrete, objective evidence that the assumptions of atheism stand up on is Life itself, the Earth itself, the numbers of people that believe in the same thing, etc.

I think you will find that supporting evidence doesn't really mean anything. That's why science doesn't use it.

That is quite a belief you have. So you believe all those things exist, huh? And you believe science exists? And you believe this thing you call science doesn't use this thing you call supporting evidence which you believe doesn't mean anything? So where did you come up with all these words? An outside source, perhaps? Stop denying philosophy.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

All of which is the argument from ignorance. In order for any of those claims to be rationally valid, you'd have to demonstrate that your claim and the CAUSE for your claim be verifiably causally linked. You cannot just say "this thing I don't understand happened, therefore my god did it". You can't say that you don't know how something happened, then make up an explanation out of whole cloth. That is exactly what the religious do and they are entirely blinded by the fallaciousness of it all.
The sign reads: "Gas Attack! Don Your Masks!"
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

"Actually, his disbelief is a belief."

used with some nouns, verbs, and adjectives for giving a word the opposite meaning
dislike (=to not like something)
dissimilar (=not similar)
disbelief

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/dis_2
These dictionary copy-paste posts of yours are not very deep.
That's a rhetorical way to say they're shallow.
If one only reads dictionaries, one only wades.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

You are trying to prove that god(s) do not exist. That is a fallacy.


You are trying to project your issues onto me as if they were my issues. That is a fallacy.


If you don't understand, ask, and I will clarify.


How do you know that I don't understand what "big words" mean if you don't even understand them? -- I understand the words that I use. If you need clarification, just ask.


If you don't understand what I am saying, ask for clarification.


Isn't the bolded your belief?

If not, then define the word belief for me...

I'm not the one trying to prove anything. I leave that to religions.

I don't have any issues with you being a believer. If that works for you, as it seems to do for most human beings, I'm okay with that. Like I stated before, I'm fully aware that as a non-believer, I'm in the minority.

You repeated your bit about me asking you for clarification. You can't clarify nonsense.

No, the bit that you bolded is a fact, not a belief. A belief is something accepted as truth or fact with no actual evidence required, as in taking something on faith alone.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I'm not trying to have a negative proven. I'm just inquiring about concrete reasons for your claim about "imaginary beings" (God, the divine Jesus Christ). If a person makes such a claim they should provide the evidence to back up that claim. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, not on the believer. Otherwise you just have an opinion. If you have more then I'd like to see it.

Evidence is the very problem. There is no evidence, which is why I consider gods to be imaginary. There is no proof that god exists, therefore I do not CHOOSE to believe in an unproven thing. Belief without evidence is a choice. Requiring proof is my choice.

The only "evidence" that I can offer are the facts currently known and proven by human science. Where would you like me to start? If you're a Christian, your bible claims that our planet was created a mere 6,000 or so years ago. Science has disproven that:

https://www.space.com/19175-how-was-earth-formed.html

Our solar system formed from the debris of a supernova about 4.5 billion years ago.

I could go back further, to the beginnings of the universe, much of which is still unknown, but this much is known:

https://www.space.com/25126-big-bang-theory.html

Sorry to use the same web site, but they have proven over the years to be both accurate and layman-friendly. If you are really interested, I recommend two books:

1. A Brief History of Time by Steven Hawking
2. Astrophysics for People in a Hurry by Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

An interesting consideration on the Big Bang: if all matter and energy were once contained within a tiny singularity that exploded and became our universe, what caused the explosion? Maybe it was what we would consider to be a god, but not anything resembling the gods we tiny, insignificant, but precious human beings have dreamed up. The cause of the Big Bang is currently unknowable.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Yes they do. Atheists believe that no god, gods, or spirits exist.

{facepalm}

I don't believe that god or gods exist because there is no evidence. Belief is accepting something as fact without evidence. Atheism is the opposite of belief. I don't BELIEVE there is no god, I simply refuse to take that, or anything, on faith alone.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

WRONG. Atheism is the belief that no god, gods, or spirits exist.

So does the Christian, the Buddhist, the Hindi, and any other religion. Knowledge is not exclusively owned by atheists.

I will call this argument 1).

I will call this argument 2). Welcome to your new paradox.

I know that. You believe no god, gods, or spirits exist.

You do. You just stated it.

It is. You are attempting to argue both sides of your paradox. Arguing both sides of a paradox is irrational.

True. You believe no god, gods, or spirits exist. I do.

But you do. You believe no god, gods, or spirits exist. That is a statement based on a circular argument, or an argument of faith. It is not possible to prove whether any god, gods, or spirits exist, and it is not possible to prove no god, gods, or spirits exist. Either statement remains a circular argument...and a religion.

You keep trying to make a case that atheism is a system of beliefs. It isn't. It is the exact opposite of a system of beliefs. I've already explained this, but Christians especially want to feel that atheists are the same as they are, therefore atheism must be about belief in something.

Gravity exists whether you believe in it or not.

Our solar system formed from the debris of a supernova 4.5 billion years ago whether you believe it or not.

Life on earth came about due to a very unique set of circumstances whether you believe it or not.

No evidence exists of a devine hand or cognitive design in any of this, therefore I do not choose to believe in a supreme being, certainly not any of the fantastic myths claimed by today's religions. I choose to seek out proven answers, such as they currently are. Religious belief provides one with all of the answers to life, the universe, and our place and purpose in it. Science asks the difficult questions, and every time they find an answer, more questions result. I prefer the questions; believers prefer the more confortable answers that religions provide.

I do not believe that there is no god, I simply refuse to believe that there is one.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Evidence is the very problem. There is no evidence, which is why I consider gods to be imaginary. There is no proof that god exists, therefore I do not CHOOSE to believe in an unproven thing. Belief without evidence is a choice. Requiring proof is my choice.

The only "evidence" that I can offer are the facts currently known and proven by human science. Where would you like me to start? If you're a Christian, your bible claims that our planet was created a mere 6,000 or so years ago. Science has disproven that:

https://www.space.com/19175-how-was-earth-formed.html

Our solar system formed from the debris of a supernova about 4.5 billion years ago.

I could go back further, to the beginnings of the universe, much of which is still unknown, but this much is known:

https://www.space.com/25126-big-bang-theory.html

I don't believe the Bible teaches a 6,000 year old earth. I don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth either. I believe it's like science says (4.5 billion or so years old). I also have a degree in science so I'm not ignorant of what science says.

Have you done your homework on it in the Bible? Many of those who have, including me, understand that the Hebrew word for day (yom) in Genesis can mean extended ages of time. In fact, the author of Genesis uses that same word that most people think is a day, to describe the entire WEEK of creation. Did you know that?

Sorry to use the same web site, but they have proven over the years to be both accurate and layman-friendly. If you are really interested, I recommend two books:

1. A Brief History of Time by Steven Hawking
2. Astrophysics for People in a Hurry by Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

I read the first one you listed a long time ago. Interesting.

An interesting consideration on the Big Bang: if all matter and energy were once contained within a tiny singularity that exploded and became our universe, what caused the explosion? Maybe it was what we would consider to be a god, but not anything resembling the gods we tiny, insignificant, but precious human beings have dreamed up. The cause of the Big Bang is currently unknowable.

You eliminate God as many believe to be the Creator. But on what scientific basis have you eliminated him? Science has never proven that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I don't believe the Bible teaches a 6,000 year old earth. I don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth either. I believe it's like science says (4.5 billion or so years old). I also have a degree in science so I'm not ignorant of what science says.

Have you done your homework on it in the Bible? Many of those who have, including me, understand that the Hebrew word for day (yom) in Genesis can mean extended ages of time. In fact, the author of Genesis uses that same word that most people think is a day, to describe the entire WEEK of creation. Did you know that?



I read the first one you listed a long time ago. Interesting.



You eliminate God as many believe to be the Creator. But on what scientific basis have you eliminated him? Science has never proven that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist.

I've read the King James version cover to cover three times, once via a bible study group. I'm well aware of the old and often used trope about the hebrew word for "day" used by many Christians to justify that seven day creation cycle.

I don't eliminate god on a scientific basis, I choose to trust in facts, and about god, there are none. Science has never been in the business of proving something does not exist. Science is in the business of proving what does exist. You cannot prove a negative -- look it up. I also don't believe in ghosts, telepathy, vampires, zombies, telekinesis, levitation, and a host of other stuff for which no proven facts exist.
 
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