[W:105] GOD HIMSELF will be with them

[tosca1]

Food for thought...

If only Bible translators would restore God's name back in the Bible where it belongs, the Trinity doctrine will die naturally...

If the Bible uses the name of GOD.......................how will the Trinity die naturally?



Let me sound like the TRIVAGO ad guy.

H O W ?




and..............WHY WOULD THE TRINITY DIE?




Care to explain to us what you mean by that?
Or, is that another one from a silly JW meme somewhere?

 

[tosca1]

Food for thought...

If only Bible translators would restore God's name back in the Bible where it belongs, the Trinity doctrine will die naturally...

A RATIONAL food for thought.....



WHY DO YOU WANT IT TO DIE?










BECAUSE............................. YOU CAN'T REFUTE IT!

 

[Parker_Chess]

Jesus is God. The Son can do everything that the Father does.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

 

[Daisy]

The Son can do everything that the Father does.

“Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner." John 5:19

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Pay attention...Jesus made it clear...he is not equal to his Father...

"the Father which hath sent him."

"the works which the Father hath given me to finish"

 

[redbeer]

Oh,boy!
Genesis 22, is a goldmine!


Genesis 22
16 and said, “By myself I have sworn,


Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’






Isaiah 45

21 Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:

‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

"For I am God, and there is no other", "By myself I have sworn"........there's no room for a triune god here, sorry.


Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.......please believe him when he said, his Father is the only true God.....the same One from Genesis 22.


(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(Deu 6:5) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Deu 6:6) And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
(Deu 6:7) And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
(Deu 6:8) And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
(Deu 6:9) And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


The correct and only mark of God. How quickly they forgot and strayed into foreign gods, trinity pagan gods having the appearance becoming the commandments of man and taught fervently through tradition, no longer aligning with God's people.

 

[Parker_Chess]

Jesus is God. The Son can do everything that the Father does.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

“Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner." John 5:19


Pay attention...Jesus made it clear...he is not equal to his Father...

"the Father which hath sent him."

"the works which the Father hath given me to finish"

You're completely misunderstanding these verses. The Father and Son are One is the point the verse is proving. They are an inseparable unit because they are both fully God.

 

[tosca1]

You're completely misunderstanding these verses. The Father and Son are One is the point the verse is proving. They are an inseparable unit because they are both fully God.

@redbeer


Thank you.

You see it too. Redbeer is totally off-base with his Bible understanding.

 

[redbeer]

@redbeer


Thank you.

You see it too. Redbeer is totally off-base with his Bible understanding.

Followers of Christ are one with the Father and Son as they are one, so your false idea it's because they are both God is untrue.

 

[Daisy]

You're completely misunderstanding these verses.

Yes, you are...Jesus is God's only begotten Son...I won't bother giving you the many scriptures to support such, since you'll just ignore them, also...

 

[tosca1]

Let me just bring this thread up since it's very relevant to the same-old stale arguments that's being resurrected over and over again by some anti-Trinitarians.
Like as if, "out of sight, out of mind."


These are BIBLICAL references! And, there are many rebuttals to challenges.
I know it's a very long thread.
To make it easier finding the references - you can select the posts made by notable Trinitarians.

 

[Daisy]

 

[tosca1]

You can enlarge your meme more than that, it still won't change what's already been established a long time ago. In three long-running threads.


here's the third one:

Thread '[W: #795] [W: #1002] The Trinity'

Aug 28, 2023

First, I’ll give the Orthodox definition of the Trinity. If anyone wants to share how they define it go for it.

The doctrine of the trinity states that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and together, not exclusively, they form one God. The trinity is co eternal, without beginning or end, and co equal.

This I don’t believe the Bible supports. In this thread I’d like to open a dialogue over what is biblically true. I’ve been convinced of my position for decades, that whereas Jesus is divine, he is fully man having attributes of God, but not God in any way. It is my...

• Overitall
• Replies: 1,723
• Forum: Theology

• 

 

[tosca1]

CONNECT THE DOTS of the TRINITY.




Going back to Corinthians:


2 Cor 3
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.



Jesus Christ is identified as The LORD.

2 Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.



God claims He is The Lord, and more!


Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.

 

[Daisy]

"Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." Acts 15:14

 

[tosca1]

"Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name." Acts 15:14

This is what it says:


Acts 15 (NIV)
14 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles.
15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:


16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things
18 things known from long ago.

What does Acts 15:14 mean? ​

James, the half-brother of Jesus, is addressing the church in Jerusalem. They need to decide if Gentiles must first convert to Judaism before they can follow Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.
Paul and Barnabas have related their work during their first missionary voyage. They went to the island of Cyprus and through the center of modern-day Asia Minor (Acts 13—14).
They have shared the many miracles the Holy Spirit empowered them to perform, affirming their message and work, and described how Gentiles have received salvation through Jesus (Acts 15:4, 12).

Now, James reiterates Peter's testimony, how God allowed him to visit a Roman centurion in Caesarea Maritima and share Jesus' offer of salvation to him and a house filled with friends, neighbors, and fellow soldiers.
While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles and gave them such signs that made Peter realize these non-Jews were chosen to receive God's grace (Acts 10; 15:7–11).

James is not saying that God visited the Gentiles "first" before He visited the Jews.
Rather, he means that Peter's encounter was the first conversion of a large group of Gentiles. Jesus made it clear that salvation came from the Jews, meaning the Messiah is Jewish and Jews were first offered eternal forgiveness from God (John 4:22). God had promised Abraham, long before, that this salvation would be to "all the families of the earth" (Genesis 12:3).
The Old Testament prophet recorded God speaking of people from foreign nations who would be "called by [His] name" (Amos 9:12), meaning, identifying with God as their sovereign ruler.
And Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd" (John 10:16).
This "one flock" is comprised of Jews and Gentiles all of whom, as Peter asserted, are "saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 15:11).

"Simeon" is from the Hebrew Shim'on and means "hearkening." It is a variation of "Simon,"

What does Acts 15:14 mean? | BibleRef.com

Simeon has described how God first concerned Himself about taking a people for His name from among the Gentiles. - What is the meaning of Acts 15:14?

www.bibleref.com

Your point?

How is this about the Trinity?

 

[tosca1]

Anyone interested in learning the history of the trinity doctrine, here you go:



http://bibleteachings.atspace.com/history.html

Your source is more of a rant.
It talked a lot of the atrocities done in the name of Christianity.
Nothing new about that.


BUT - it doesn't really give us details about the origin for the Trinity.

 

[redbeer]

Your source is more of a rant.
It talked a lot of the atrocities done in the name of Christianity.
Nothing new about that.


BUT - it doesn't really give us details about the origin for the Trinity.

It takes longer than 9 minutes to go through the source with honest effort. After learning of the horrific history of the trinity doctrine, I'm always surprised of its' popularity amongst Christians. Most are deceived, lazy, or fear the social effects so they blindly follow along through tradition.

The origin of the false trinity doctrine is anything but Christ, the apostles or early Christians.

 

[tosca1]

It takes longer than 9 minutes to go through the source with honest effort. After learning of the horrific history of the trinity doctrine, I'm always surprised of its' popularity amongst Christians. Most are deceived, lazy, or fear the social effects so they blindly follow along through tradition.

The origin of the false trinity doctrine is anything but Christ, the apostles or early Christians.

The origin for the TRINITY is the Bible - the basis for it are given in this thread. That's the whole purpose of this thread.


After all the crumbs of hints and clues scattered throughout the Scriptures - the deity of Jesus is finally, officially revealed in the final Book - The Book of Revelation.
His true identity is officially given to us. by Jesus Himself: I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA.




That people had committed atrocities in the name of Christianity (which includes the Trinity)........................it doesn't mean that the TRINITY is therefore, negated.

That would be like you saying since the Catholic church had committed atrocities with their inquisition, and in enforcing catholicism in many parts of the world, that somehow it proves that the Abrahamic God isn't true.

 

[tosca1]

It takes longer than 9 minutes to go through the source with honest effort. After learning of the horrific history of the trinity doctrine, I'm always surprised of its' popularity amongst Christians. Most are deceived, lazy, or fear the social effects so they blindly follow along through tradition.

The origin of the false trinity doctrine is anything but Christ, the apostles or early Christians.

You don't have to go through all of it to know that it is nothing more but another feeble attempt at negating the Trinity.
It's also quite sophomoric.
The first few paragraphs suffice.

The HISTORY for the concept of the Trinity begins in the Bible - starting at the Book of Genesis.
Your source ranted about how people enforced it!



Christianity had a bloody history.
Like, the Conquest for the Promised Land.
Like, The Crusades.
You say then that they disprove Christianity?


Look at the Old Testament!
It's a blood bath!
God should apologise to the present generation?
Is that what you're saying?


Just look what you, yourself, got from it. Enough said.
The irony - the more you desperately scrape the bottom of the barrel (not unlike @Daisy), frantically searching for rebuttals.......................the more confused and irrational you become with your silly ideas.

 

[redbeer]

The origin for the TRINITY is the Bible - the basis for it are given in this thread. That's the whole purpose of this thread.


After all the crumbs of hints and clues scattered throughout the Scriptures - the deity of Jesus is finally, officially revealed in the final Book - The Book of Revelation.
His true identity is officially given to us. by Jesus Himself: I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA.




That people had committed atrocities in the name of Christianity (which includes the Trinity)........................it doesn't mean that the TRINITY is therefore, negated.

That would be like you saying since the Catholic church had committed atrocities with their inquisition, and in enforcing catholicism in many parts of the world, that somehow it proves that the Abrahamic God isn't true.

People imagine all kinds of beliefs and doctrines from the Bible. It's been ongoing phenomenon of man thinking within himself, he has it all figured out. The trinity is one of those, which rose in power and popularity through much violence, bloodshed and theft.

Making excuses for atrocities committed in the name of Christianity does not bode well for you. Guess they've become more civilized today, huh?

Catholics and Protestants alike committed insane violence all in the name of the trinity, killing, torturing, stealing land and property from other Christians who would not bow to their idol. Today, they will not let you into the "club" of Christianity, but the news is that "club" is not real, true Christianity, but an imposter.

Their mark is 666, a doctrine of man created on the 6th day in Genesis, repeated three times, yet one number.......it's nothing but the trinity, that's their mark. Pretending to have One God, their god is three (6's)-persons, yet one God(6)-number.

Personally, I could care less what you believe, that's your own belief and ideology, but it's important to have others see it's idolatry and falseness. I'm still trying to figure out how your Christ died on the cross, seeing in your mind he is God, at least a co-equal partner of two others.....how does a God die?.....did He die?.....How?.....Just one of his natures?.....but I thought trinitarians believe the "person" of Christ is divine, or just be quiet, believe what we say kind of things?.....or just state "it's a mystery" and walk on?

 

[redbeer]

You don't have to go through all of it to know that it is nothing more but another feeble attempt at negating the Trinity.
It's also quite sophomoric.
The first few paragraphs suffice.

The HISTORY for the concept of the Trinity begins in the Bible - starting at the Book of Genesis.
Your source ranted about how people enforced it!



Christianity had a bloody history.
Like, the Conquest for the Promised Land.
Like, The Crusades.
You say then that they disprove Christianity?


Look at the Old Testament!
It's a blood bath!
God should apologise to the present generation?
Is that what you're saying?


Just look what you, yourself, got from it. Enough said.
The irony - the more you desperately scrape the bottom of the barrel (not unlike @Daisy), frantically searching for rebuttals.......................the more confused and irrational you become with your silly ideas.

The bible uses language with descriptive words, phrases, stories, and generations upon generations of people who actually only had One God, not a triune god. Neighboring countries had multiple gods, but NOT God's people......they were like a nun, never had it, never will.

It didn't change with the coming of Christ, but He revealed who this One True God was and is and will be. The Israelites continually disobeyed God and mixed their beliefs within neighboring nations, incensing God to no end.....over and over they were disobedient. Seems things never change for even during the times of the apostles this was rising quickly and the spirit of antichrist was already there amongst them.

Once all the apostles were gone, it went fast and a great falling away took place and the greatest tool was the doctrine of the trinity. The "another gospel" grew, spread and became very powerful over time, still alive and well today. Original, true Christianity has been with only a few in the generations since, as scripture teaches, mostly of the threat of trinitarianism.

Watch how quickly your life will change disavowing the trinity doctrine in your church. You will be amazed the power they have over people and the terrible way they will begin to talk about your character and reputation. Eventually thrown out and looked upon as possessing a devil and the odd aspect is they believe they are doing God's bidding. It's a strange phenomenon. I want nothing to do with that kind of religion.

 

[Daisy]

it is possible to be a Christian while not believing in the Trinity. While the Trinity (God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a core doctrine for many Christian denominations, some individuals and groups hold alternative views about the nature of God and Jesus. These nontrinitarian Christians often emphasize other aspects of Christian faith, such as belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the importance of following his teachings, while interpreting the relationship between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit differently.

Elaboration:

Traditional Trinity:
The Trinity doctrine, as defined by many mainstream Christian churches, posits that God is one being existing in three co-equal persons: Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit.

Nontrinitarian Views:
Nontrinitarians, on the other hand, may hold various beliefs, including:
Unitarianism: Believing God is a single, unified being, rejecting the idea of the Trinity.

Binitarianism: Believing God consists of two persons, the Father and the Son.

Other Interpretations: Some may view the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force or power of God rather than a separate person.

Salvation and Belief:
While the Trinity is central to many Christian denominations, some argue that belief in the Trinity is not essential for salvation, emphasizing faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and a life of Christian discipleship.

Historical Context:
The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized over time, with debates and different interpretations existing throughout Christian history. Some point to the fact that the Trinity is not explicitly stated in the Old Testament and that the New Testament contains various perspectives on the nature of God.
Google

 

[tosca1]

it is possible to be a Christian while not believing in the Trinity. While the Trinity (God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is a core doctrine for many Christian denominations, some individuals and groups hold alternative views about the nature of God and Jesus. These nontrinitarian Christians often emphasize other aspects of Christian faith, such as belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the importance of following his teachings, while interpreting the relationship between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit differently.

I'm just scratching my head over your "possible to be a Christian"....

That's an admittance that believing in the Trinity is a requirement to being a Christian.

Elaboration:

Traditional Trinity:
The Trinity doctrine, as defined by many mainstream Christian churches, posits that God is one being existing in three co-equal persons: Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit.

Nontrinitarian Views:
Nontrinitarians, on the other hand, may hold various beliefs, including:
Unitarianism: Believing God is a single, unified being, rejecting the idea of the Trinity.

Binitarianism: Believing God consists of two persons, the Father and the Son.

Other Interpretations: Some may view the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force or power of God rather than a separate person.

Salvation and Belief:
While the Trinity is central to many Christian denominations, some argue that belief in the Trinity is not essential for salvation, emphasizing faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and a life of Christian discipleship.

Historical Context:
The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized over time, with debates and different interpretations existing throughout Christian history. Some point to the fact that the Trinity is not explicitly stated in the Old Testament and that the New Testament contains various perspectives on the nature of God.
Google

Other interpretations don't matter.

It's not like as if there is any ambiguity in the Scriptures over the Truth of the Trinity.
The concept of the Trinity (Three in One) - although the term is not in the Bible - is clearly given.

What's CLEARLY in the Bible, is the ONLY basis that we must believe in.



I'd given one particular CONNECT-THE-DOTS in a previous post. #738
There are many which I call, "connect-the-dots," when you pick certain terms for both GOD and Jesus.

Here's another one with the term SHEPHERD":
Sometimes, they overlap too! Like overlapping with the term "LORD."


Psalm 23
23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.



The whole chapter of Ezekiel 34 is about Shepherding. You have to read the whole chapter. Too long to paste here.


Ezekiel 34

The Lord Will Be Israel’s Shepherd​

31You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”






John 10
11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away.
Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.


14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[tosca1]

it is possible to be a Christian while not believing in the Trinity.

Continuation:



I know it's either starting to dawn on you, or you're already starting to see the truth of the TRINITY, Daisy.

We're not obligated to be loyal to false religions/false teachers. In fact, we're supposed to SHUN them!

You have to go with the BIBLE, my dear sister.
That's only way we can discern properly.

 

[tosca1]

CONNECT-THE-DOTS:
This is also about shepherding..................and being the JUDGE!


Ezekiel 34
17“‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats.



Mathhew 25

The Sheep and the Goats​

31bsp;“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.





As I've said before - all these verses are crumbs of hints and clues on the identity of Jesus Christ.
The climax is in the Book of Revelation, when the most important revelation of all - His full identity - is revealed.
Jesus Himself, tells us:


I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA.