Vaccines and a culture of fear

[jaeger19]

I'm not quite sure I understand your point here. So different strains are equally prevalent, so cervical cancer rates should be higher. That doesn't make sense. It obviously doesn't cause cancer in everyone with the virus strain, but it is still well documented that it causes cancer in many. It's definitely something worth vaccinating against.

No it is not well documented that it CAUSES cancer.. its documented that there is a correlation between cancer and certain strains of HPV. I have not seen the evidence that its CAUSATIONAL.. It may be possible that if you are a person that can contract certain strains of HPV.. it means that you are more likely to get cancer. In other words its and indicator of risk.. but not causational.

In addition, my child is a male.. he is NOT going to get cervical cancer... and there was no need to vaccinate him at 7 years old. Yet it was being pushed.
\
You feel that its "something worth vaccinating against"... you are entitled to your opinion but its certain not that certain in the research. I and every other parent should have the right to decide whats appropriate for my child regardless of your opinion.

 

[kerussll]

So in other words.. they don't have a choice...

Thanks for clarifying.

by the way... if you vaccinate your kid... why is your kid at risk because I didn't vaccinate mine?

Herd immunity breaking down hurts everyone. Vaccines are not 100% effective and babies aren't protected for quite some time. Some people have actual medical reasons for not vaccinating. Do some reading if you don't understand this concept. Out of curiosity, are your kids actually not vaccinated or is that a hypothetical?

Community Immunity ("Herd Immunity") | Vaccines.gov
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf
Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated?

 

[kerussll]

No it is not well documented that it CAUSES cancer.. its documented that there is a correlation between cancer and certain strains of HPV. I have not seen the evidence that its CAUSATIONAL.. It may be possible that if you are a person that can contract certain strains of HPV.. it means that you are more likely to get cancer. In other words its and indicator of risk.. but not causational.

In addition, my child is a male.. he is NOT going to get cervical cancer... and there was no need to vaccinate him at 7 years old. Yet it was being pushed.
\
You feel that its "something worth vaccinating against"... you are entitled to your opinion but its certain not that certain in the research. I and every other parent should have the right to decide whats appropriate for my child regardless of your opinion.

Maybe these will provide you the evidence you need for this causal relationship you have not yet seen. If not, I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

The causal relation between human papillomavirus and cervical cancer -- Bosch et al. 55 (4): 244 -- Journal of Clinical Pathology
The causal link between human papillomavirus and invasive cervical cancer: A population-based case-control study in colombia and spain - Munoz - 2006 - International Journal of Cancer - Wiley Online Library
Evidence for a Causal Association Between Human Papillomavirus and a Subset of Head and Neck Cancers
Chapter 1: HPV in the etiology of human cancer
Epidemiologic Evidence Showing That Human Papillomavirus Infection Causes Most Cervical Intraepithelial Neoplasia

 

[jaeger19]

Herd immunity breaking down hurts everyone. Vaccines are not 100% effective and babies aren't protected for quite some time. Some people have actual medical reasons for not vaccinating. Do some reading if you don't understand this concept. Out of curiosity, are your kids actually not vaccinated or is that a hypothetical?

Community Immunity ("Herd Immunity") | Vaccines.gov
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf
Vaccines: VPD-VAC/Who Should NOT Get Vaccinated?

I understand the concept... way more than you obviously understand.

To point out.. yes.. some people have medical reasons for not vaccinating. Do you understand what that means? Because there are reasons.. its means that not only have we found SOME reasons not to vaccinate.. but we have yet to discover all the other possible reasons not to vaccinate.

The risks and benefits of vaccination change with each vaccine, each child, and each virus, or bacteria.

THAT is what people need to recognize.

Lets take this...

Out of curiosity, are your kids actually not vaccinated or is that a hypothetical?

See.. as a medical professional.. I see that as a foolish question. My children are vaccinated for some things.. like mumps measles and rubella. Like polio. I waited until there was more research to vaccinate for Varicella.

They are NOT vaccinated for HPV.. they are not vaccinated for Hepatitis C.. they are not Vaccinated for Typhoid.. They are not vaccinated for Yellow Fever or Smallpox, and a whole host of other vaccinations are available.

Do you understand my point?

 

[jaeger19]

Maybe these will provide you the evidence you need for this causal relationship you have not yet seen. If not, I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

The causal relation between human papillomavirus and cervical cancer -- Bosch et al. 55 (4): 244 -- Journal of Clinical Pathology
The causal link between human papillomavirus and invasive cervical cancer: A population-based case-control study in colombia and spain - Munoz - 2006 - International Journal of Cancer - Wiley Online Library
Evidence for a Causal Association Between Human Papillomavirus and a Subset of Head and Neck Cancers

Been there.. read those...

Let me present one of the best studies which is the Munoz study...

Here is the conclusion:

Our results indicate that there is a very strong association between HPV 16, 18, 31, 33 and 35 and invasive cervical cancer and that this association is probably causal

So as I said.. the research indicates a strong correlation between certain HPV and cervical cancer... According to the research.. they don't know if its causal, that was an inference that they made..



T

 

[kerussll]

Maybe these will provide you the evidence you need for this causal relationship you have not yet seen. If not, I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

The causal relation between human papillomavirus and cervical cancer -- Bosch et al. 55 (4): 244 -- Journal of Clinical Pathology
The causal link between human papillomavirus and invasive cervical cancer: A population-based case-control study in colombia and spain - Munoz - 2006 - International Journal of Cancer - Wiley Online Library
Evidence for a Causal Association Between Human Papillomavirus and a Subset of Head and Neck Cancers

Been there.. read those...

Let me present one of the best studies which is the Munoz study...

Here is the conclusion:



So as I said.. the research indicates a strong correlation between certain HPV and cervical cancer... According to the research.. they don't know if its causal, that was an inference that they made..



T

The first link I provided in the very first sentence quotes: "The causal role of human papillomavirus infections in cervical cancer has been documented beyond reasonable doubt."

Since you said you were a medical professional, I assumed you had to have some knowledge of research methodology and ethics. You do understand that the only way to definitively prove one thing causes the other in a study is to do a double blind, randomly assigned study? But since one in this case would involve randomly infecting people with HPV, it obviously can't be done. So what you are asking for here is impossible. It would also be impossible to prove smoking causes lung cancer for the same reason. But you seem to accept that as fact, so go figure.

See.. as a medical professional.. I see that as a foolish question. My children are vaccinated for some things.. like mumps measles and rubella. Like polio. I waited until there was more research to vaccinate for Varicella.

They are NOT vaccinated for HPV.. they are not vaccinated for Hepatitis C.. they are not Vaccinated for Typhoid.. They are not vaccinated for Yellow Fever or Smallpox, and a whole host of other vaccinations are available.

Do you understand my point?

As for this, no not at all. I'm glad they're partially vaccinated with some of the recommended vaccines, but I'm not sure why you're bringing up Smallpox or yellow fever, etc or a Hep C vaccine that doesn't exist.

 

[jaeger19]

The first link I provided in the very first sentence quotes: "The causal role of human papillomavirus infections in cervical cancer has been documented beyond reasonable doubt."

Since you said you were a medical professional, I assumed you had to have some knowledge of research methodology and ethics. You do understand that the only way to definitively prove one thing causes the other in a study is to do a double blind, randomly assigned study? But since one in this case would involve randomly infecting people with HPV, it obviously can't be done. So what you are asking for here is impossible. It would also be impossible to prove smoking causes lung cancer for the same reason. But you seem to accept that as fact, so go figure.

Actually no its not.. as a medical professional and a scientist.. I understand that its possible to study the mechanisms involved in the lab and in animal models.. and in other ways. By the way.. I have read the research... have you? If you were to read the studies..you would see that the causal inference is not as strong as you or the article states.

As for this, no not at all. I'm glad they're partially vaccinated with some of the recommended vaccines, but I'm not sure why you're bringing up Smallpox or yellow fever, etc or a Hep C vaccine that doesn't exist

Bingo.. you prove my point... You scream that "we need to have vaccinations"... but don't understand that we have tons of vaccinations out there.. THAT YOU HAVE NOT TAKEN. Tell me.. have you vaccinated for smallpox, or yellow fever, Typhoid ?

Likely not... and why? Because the risk of getting the vaccine is greater than the benefit that someone living in the US would get from it. That's the point...

Vaccine "believers".. never seem to consider that there ARE risks to vaccines as well as benefits. To you.. it appears that all vaccines are appropriate. "VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN".. "IT PROTECT US ALL"... is your mantra.. not understanding that some vaccines are appropriate and some vaccines are not depending on the situation and it should be between the medical professional and the person/parent.. to decide what's appropriate and not a government official particularly government officials that are highly lobbied by the Pharma industry (e.g. What happened with Rick Perry and HPV vaccine).

By the way.. a Hep C vaccine does exist.. its a two tiered vaccine and its in clinical trial at Oxford. There is also a therapeutic vaccine in clinical trial that shows great promise for folks that already have Hep C.

 

[minnie616]

This anti- vax mom changed her mind

The overwhelming evidence and public opinion in support of vaccines often make anti-vaxxers feel persecuted, however, and cause them to become more resolute in their stance. One example is Tara Hills of Ottawa, Canada, who decided to stop vaccinating her seven kids due to distrust of the medical community. She wrote in a blog post on The Scientific Parent:
We had vaccinated our first three children on an alternative schedule and our youngest four weren't vaccinated at all. We stopped because we were scared and didn't know who to trust. Was the medical community just paid off puppets of a Big Pharma-Government-Media conspiracy?

The answer is "maybe, but you should still vaccinate." Hills and her husband started to change their mind when the Disneyland measles outbreak hit, and had a real epiphany when they saw a similar measles outbreak among anti-vaxxers they knew personally. They scheduled a catch-up vaccine schedule for their children, but the week it was supposed to start, all seven kids came down with a nasty cough.

When the kids didn't get better, they realized their fears had come true: all of the kids were infected with whooping cough. Also known as pertussis, whooping cough is a highly contagious bacterial disease that can be fatal in young children. An effective vaccine has existed since 1925.

This anti-vax mom changed her tune after her 7 kids all got whooping cough at once. | Public Health | Someecards

 

[ORION83]

The scientific process long preceded the anti-vaxxers.

INDEPENDENT scientific researches? I doubt it. ALL research done is paid for by big pharma or their allies....I have 4 kids ALL are vaccine free....I am vaccine free as is my wife...never been healthier!

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

“We seem to be more frightened than we’ve ever been”: Eula Biss on anti-vaxxers, white privilege and our strange new culture of fear

“We seem to be more frightened than we’ve ever been”: Eula Biss on anti-vaxxers, white privilege and our strange new culture of fear - Salon.com

This part stuck out to me...

Really?

 

[kerussll]

INDEPENDENT scientific researches? I doubt it. ALL research done is paid for by big pharma or their allies....I have 4 kids ALL are vaccine free....I am vaccine free as is my wife...never been healthier!

You're welcome for that.

 

[minnie616]

Vaccines unfortunately for 10 of millions of Chickens and turkeys there is no vaccine for the Avian flu.

An avian flu outbreak is sweeping across the Midwest at a frightening pace, ravaging chicken and turkey farms and leaving officials stumped about the virus's seemingly unstoppable spread.

Now reaching to 15 states, the outbreak has been detected at 174 farms, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Because there's no vaccine, infected and even healthy birds must be killed to try to stop the virus, forcing the killing of 38.9 million birds and counting, the USDA says.

Avian Flu Outbreak Takes Poultry Producers Into Uncharted Territory : The Salt : NPR

 

[justabubba]

another reason to fear:
16 years ago, a doctor published a study. It was completely made up, and it made us all sicker.

the connection between autism and vaccines was absolutely bogus

how many suffered needlessly because of this fraud

 

[Manc Skipper]

The latest bit of fearmongering is a supposed mother being refused testing on her mythical daughter's pancreatic tumour for HPV.

It is simply impossible for the HPV vaccine to create a tumour. There is no virus in the jab, only proteins from it. Even if it wasn't made up, there's no reason to test for the impossible.

 

[year2late]

INDEPENDENT scientific researches? I doubt it. ALL research done is paid for by big pharma or their allies....I have 4 kids ALL are vaccine free....I am vaccine free as is my wife...never been healthier!

And you can thank the millions of responsible individuals who vaccinate to keep you safe

 

[AmIsraelHai]

“We seem to be more frightened than we’ve ever been”: Eula Biss on anti-vaxxers, white privilege and our strange new culture of fear

“We seem to be more frightened than we’ve ever been”: Eula Biss on anti-vaxxers, white privilege and our strange new culture of fear - Salon.com

This part stuck out to me...

What are the reasons why vaccination has not eradicated cholera?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

I'm not one of those "OMG, vaccines give muh children autism" types, but I have noticed that the pro-vaxxers have become somewhat of a cult lately. You can't question any vaccine without having holy hell fury unleashed on you. You can't question dosage, application, or the overall necessity at all. And, in my experience, it's usually when we forgo the scientific process of questioning things that everything goes horribly wrong.

What are the reasons why vaccine companies don't shift from harmful ingredients?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

Let people choose or let the government pay for it.

When both CEP pump are trip then why vaccine is drop?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

I am torn by this situation. My 2 children are in their 30's, and both were completely vaccinated. There were no perceived reactions to the vaccine.

That said, for certain individuals there must be a reaction to the vaccine.

As the world becomes more populated, epidemics of one sort or the other seem likely. Do public health concerns override individual choice? I don't know.

I do not take the flu vaccine. Only took it once in my life, in the Army, and never again because it made me so sick.

How do the dynamics of infectious disease transmission explain why vaccines are not available for all infections and are not universally successful when they are available?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

The scientific process long preceded the anti-vaxxers.

Why aren't vaccines mandatory in the United States?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

Sure you can. Hell, the anti-vaccers have won some of those battles.

Unfortunately they chose the wrong battle.

What scientists eliminated, in the hopes for encouraging them to vaccinate, was actually totally harmless. The impact? Vaccines don't keep as well, which has caused the prices to skyrocket in the developing world. So now the poor don't have as much access to vaccines. Gee, thanks guys...

I question vaccines all the time. I'm picky about them for my cat, because cats are vulnerable to injection site sarcomas (not humans or dogs -- cats are very sensitive critters with very unique systems). Can I do a titer instead to check if she is still immune? No? Is there a nasal spray vaccine? No? Is there a non-adjuvanted version? Etc, etc, etc...

I have a whole seperate rant about the flu vaccine specifically (which is mostly questions -- I don't have the answers to how to make it more effective).

I might be considered one of the die-hards, because the fact is that people who don't vaccinate kill other people. Of course I have a bee in my bonnet about that.

But I'm always in favor of improving vaccines to be more effective with fewer doses, less risk of reaction, and only necessary ingrediants. But vaccines are extremely good now. Certainly much better and safer than when my parents were kids. And people who refuse to accept scientific fact are killing other people.

Why do owners vaccinate their pets?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

Fair point. And I agree there should be adult discussion, not ranting or attempts to silence the other side. I am also cautious in the sense that just because something has generally worked out in the past doesn't mean that every new one that comes out will be equally as effective and/or safe.

Having said that, I have little patience for most of the anti-vaxxer crowd. IMO, it's selfish, ignorant, and dangerous to not vaccinate for at least the proven and common stuff. You're not only putting your own kids at risk, you're putting other people at risk.

"I have never known anybody with whooping cough in my life. It's just not a concern anymore." I have heard this type of statement many times and this attitude pisses me off. Think about it. Whooping cough <and other illnesses> used to be common, and are now almost non-existent, and became almost non-existent BECAUSE people got vaccinated. Whooping cough didn't go away, just less people now get it. The person who makes a statement like that is only looking at the result, not the *how* it came to be. Connect the dots.

I keep thinking thinking about this...

If that is true, and that is how people who don't vaccinate their kids think, then IMO they are criminally negligent by putting other people at risk unnecessarily.



Some people do have adverse reaction to vaccine, yes. It's unfortunate, but it is. It's a fool's errand, though, to think anything can be absolutely perfect. I think it's a testament to how good (soft?) we have it in today's world that some think 'perfect' is even possible. There is a very small chance percentage-wise that someone will have an adverse reaction, BUT if they don't vaccinate the chances of getting whooping cough or measles or mumps or whatever is many times higher. It's a gamble, yes, and with no crystal to help make a decision, but the odds are greatly in favor of getting the vaccine. It should be noted also that, for at least the older vaccines, science has been pretty much proven regarding the safety and benefit.

As far as world population and potential for epidemics, does individual choice have the right to endanger others?

I was fully vaccinated as a kid, per the requirements at the time. My kids were fully vaccinated, per the requirements of the era of their childhood. No adverse effects. I have never received a flu shot (that I recall).

Why are vaccines/immunizations important?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

I'm not one of those "OMG, vaccines give muh children autism" types, but I have noticed that the pro-vaxxers have become somewhat of a cult lately. You can't question any vaccine without having holy hell fury unleashed on you. You can't question dosage, application, or the overall necessity at all. And, in my experience, it's usually when we forgo the scientific process of questioning things that everything goes horribly wrong.

Why are children given vaccinations?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

Sure you can. Hell, the anti-vaccers have won some of those battles.

Unfortunately they chose the wrong battle.

What scientists eliminated, in the hopes for encouraging them to vaccinate, was actually totally harmless. The impact? Vaccines don't keep as well, which has caused the prices to skyrocket in the developing world. So now the poor don't have as much access to vaccines. Gee, thanks guys...

I question vaccines all the time. I'm picky about them for my cat, because cats are vulnerable to injection site sarcomas (not humans or dogs -- cats are very sensitive critters with very unique systems). Can I do a titer instead to check if she is still immune? No? Is there a nasal spray vaccine? No? Is there a non-adjuvanted version? Etc, etc, etc...

I have a whole seperate rant about the flu vaccine specifically (which is mostly questions -- I don't have the answers to how to make it more effective).

I might be considered one of the die-hards, because the fact is that people who don't vaccinate kill other people. Of course I have a bee in my bonnet about that.

But I'm always in favor of improving vaccines to be more effective with fewer doses, less risk of reaction, and only necessary ingrediants. But vaccines are extremely good now. Certainly much better and safer than when my parents were kids. And people who refuse to accept scientific fact are killing other people.

Why are vaccines such a divisive issue?

 

[AmIsraelHai]

WHITE PRIVILEGE?

I am so totally sick of that damned term popping up EVERYWHERE. What does that have to do with vaccines! Nothing - apparently absolutely nothing. I read that article just to hope to understand why it was in the [oh, that's right, put that term in the article title gets people look at the article even if the term is entirely an wholly irrelevant].

Oddly - what htey don't address in the article is that people who avoid vaccinations are just lazy. They don't care, they don't want to be bothered with it. That's what I've seen a lot of. I think the 'I'm afraid' element comes out in their defense when they're questioned - because they think that fear and mistrust is understandable. And really, the government establishes that fear and mistrust is a good reason not to . . . but if you just don't want to because you don't care, then you're not able to make that decision.

There's also these 'I'm a bad parent by poking my kid with needles' crowd that would rather cocoon and coddle than raise and support.

So sources matter - I think Bliss' research netted the appropriate responses for her station. If she went to school parents and looked up all those reasons it would all be 'religious' - 'it's against my religious beliefs' runs amuk because that's the only option to 'opt out'.

People - flat out - just don't see the reason and thus they just don't WANT to. Oh, but they'll be heartbroken if their kids contracts one of those preventable diseases.

What are the reasons people don't get vaccinations?