Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘vaccin

[AlbqOwl]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Can you link to research carried out by these competent and concerned people?

I've already provided links--at least one link anyway--in this thread that illustrated why I think an open mind on this particular issue is the scientific way to go. Of particular interest is a fact cited--I think it was in the same article--that at least one of the materials used to deliver the vaccine organisms has been discontinued out of concerns that it was a culprit in some serious negative side effects. I do not have permission to use the name of a person here in town, a prominent physician, who is quite concerned about the issue, is not convinced the CDC has it absolutely right on this issue, and he has good reason for his concern. He is not one opposed to vaccinations I might add.

Until you have been or have been close to a parent dealing with a severely autistic child, it is easy to dismiss all of this as a non issue.

In my own experience, the CDC and my physician assured me that the flu vaccine I was receiving would not give me the flu. After two years in a row that I got the flu after receiving the vaccine while in years I didn't get it I did not get the flu, the doctor conceded I might have a case. These days they use a different delivery mechanism and I can now get a flu shot with no side effects.

It is easy to say there is no problem until it is discovered that there is a problem.

Here again is the article I linked. Straight forward and while supporting the CDC and all others who have researched this particular issue, they acknowledged that questions remain:
Autism-Vaccine Link: Evidence Doesn't Dispel Doubts

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

I've already provided links--at least one link anyway--in this thread that illustrated why I think an open mind on this particular issue is the scientific way to go. Of particular interest is a fact cited--I think it was in the same article--that at least one of the materials used to deliver the vaccine organisms has been discontinued out of concerns that it was a culprit in some serious negative side effects. I do not have permission to use the name of a person here in town, a prominent physician, who is quite concerned about the issue, is not convinced the CDC has it absolutely right on this issue, and he has good reason for his concern. He is not one opposed to vaccinations I might add.

Until you have been or have been close to a parent dealing with a severely autistic child, it is easy to dismiss all of this as a non issue.

In my own experience, the CDC and my physician assured me that the flu vaccine I was receiving would not give me the flu. After two years in a row that I got the flu after receiving the vaccine while in years I didn't get it I did not get the flu, the doctor conceded I might have a case. These days they use a different delivery mechanism and I can now get a flu shot with no side effects.

It is easy to say there is no problem until it is discovered that there is a problem.

Here again is the article I linked. Straight forward and while supporting the CDC and all others who have researched this particular issue, they acknowledged that questions remain:
Autism-Vaccine Link: Evidence Doesn't Dispel Doubts

Misconceptions about Flu Vaccines
Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu vaccine viruses that have been 'inactivated' and are therefore not infectious, or b) with no flu vaccine viruses at all (which is the case for recombinant influenza vaccine). The most common side effects from the influenza shot are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur.

In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get inactivated flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

What about people who get a seasonal flu vaccine and still get sick with flu symptoms?

There are several reasons why someone might get a flu symptoms, even after they have been vaccinated against flu.

One reason is that some people can become ill from other respiratory viruses besides flu such as rhinoviruses, which are associated with the common cold, cause symptoms similar to flu, and also spread and cause illness during the flu season. The flu vaccine only protects against influenza, not other illnesses.
Another explanation is that it is possible to be exposed to influenza viruses, which cause the flu, shortly before getting vaccinated or during the two-week period after vaccination that it takes the body to develop immune protection. This exposure may result in a person becoming ill with flu before protection from the vaccine takes effect.
A third reason why some people may experience flu like symptoms despite getting vaccinated is that they may have been exposed to a flu virus that is very different from the viruses the vaccine is designed to protect against. The ability of a flu vaccine to protect a person depends largely on the similarity or “match” between the viruses selected to make the vaccine and those spreading and causing illness. There are many different flu viruses that spread and cause illness among people. For more information, see Influenza (Flu) Viruses.
The final explanation for experiencing flu symptoms after vaccination is that the flu vaccine can vary in how well it works and some people who get vaccinated may still get sick.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

You were making an EXCELLENT argument and I was hugely impressed right up to your last line. And there you blew it. I swear it must be in the water or something. . . Nevertheless. . .

But we don't KNOW what causes autism do we? The CDC has taken a very firm position that vaccines are not a factor in that and I figure despite the very good and competent people they have in that organization, they are not now looking for a reason to show that they are wrong.

And other equally competent and concerned people are not yet convinced that the CDC is right. I believe an open scientific mind wants to look at any additional evidence that might be out there and give them a chance to disprove the CDC diagnosis. If they can't do it, we haven't lost a thing by allowing them to try. If they do, then it is good that we know the truth or that we need to keep looking for it.

Even if we, say, ignore the 30,000 people a year that smallpox killed, even if we narrow it down to the people who are paralyzed or disfigured from diseases like polio, and even if we assumed the rates of paralysis/disfigurement were on-par with rates of autism, and even if we assumed that vaccines were responsible for 100% of autism, i still could make a strong case for vaccination.

Vaccines, antibiotics, and anatomy are the three major medical science breakthroughs in all of human civilization. We almost completely wiped out diseases that decimated populations. And, really, that's the problem. We don't see the effects of "not being vaccinated" anymore. We don't know what vaccination buys us, so we take it for granted.

Well, i think people should be able to opt out of vaccinations, but i think it could be reasonable for there to be consequences as a result. It could jeopardize eligibility for public attendance at, say, a public school or a football game, and i would argue justifiably so.

 

[JANFU]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

What about Oxycontin? It's being inappropriately prescribed and is being abused frequently. That is not something the FDA really would rescind approval for.

What did the company state- Non addictive?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Misconceptions about Flu Vaccines
Can a flu shot give you the flu?

No, a flu shot cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu vaccine viruses that have been 'inactivated' and are therefore not infectious, or b) with no flu vaccine viruses at all (which is the case for recombinant influenza vaccine). The most common side effects from the influenza shot are soreness, redness, tenderness or swelling where the shot was given. Low-grade fever, headache and muscle aches also may occur.

In randomized, blinded studies, where some people get inactivated flu shots and others get salt-water shots, the only differences in symptoms was increased soreness in the arm and redness at the injection site among people who got the flu shot. There were no differences in terms of body aches, fever, cough, runny nose or sore throat.

What about people who get a seasonal flu vaccine and still get sick with flu symptoms?

There are several reasons why someone might get a flu symptoms, even after they have been vaccinated against flu.

One reason is that some people can become ill from other respiratory viruses besides flu such as rhinoviruses, which are associated with the common cold, cause symptoms similar to flu, and also spread and cause illness during the flu season. The flu vaccine only protects against influenza, not other illnesses.
Another explanation is that it is possible to be exposed to influenza viruses, which cause the flu, shortly before getting vaccinated or during the two-week period after vaccination that it takes the body to develop immune protection. This exposure may result in a person becoming ill with flu before protection from the vaccine takes effect.
A third reason why some people may experience flu like symptoms despite getting vaccinated is that they may have been exposed to a flu virus that is very different from the viruses the vaccine is designed to protect against. The ability of a flu vaccine to protect a person depends largely on the similarity or “match” between the viruses selected to make the vaccine and those spreading and causing illness. There are many different flu viruses that spread and cause illness among people. For more information, see Influenza (Flu) Viruses.
The final explanation for experiencing flu symptoms after vaccination is that the flu vaccine can vary in how well it works and some people who get vaccinated may still get sick.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm

Yes, I've read what the CDC said about it then and since. But I got a flu shot and I got the flu, diagnosed as the flu by the doctor who gave me the shot, twice. And even the doctor had to admit that the probability that the shot gave me the flu was very high. Since then they have changed the delivery method for flu shots and it is no longer a problem, at least for me.

So those parents, and their numbers are legion, who have children who were perfectly normal until they received vaccinations upon which they began exhibiting signs of autism do deserve an answer. If it was the vaccine, then we need to figure out how to fix that. If something else, then what? We need to know.

I am not speaking out against vaccinations. They indeed may not be the problem. In fact they probably aren't. But I do believe an open mind is the only way to discover and correct where we are wrong when we are wrong.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Yes, I've read what the CDC said about it then and since. But I got a flu shot and I got the flu, diagnosed as the flu by the doctor who gave me the shot, twice. And even the doctor had to admit that the probability that the shot gave me the flu was very high. Since then they have changed the delivery method for flu shots and it is no longer a problem, at least for me.

So those parents, and their numbers are legion, who have children who were perfectly normal until they received vaccinations upon which they began exhibiting signs of autism do deserve an answer. If it was the vaccine, then we need to figure out how to fix that. If something else, then what? We need to know.

I am not speaking out against vaccinations. They indeed may not be the problem. In fact they probably aren't. But I do believe an open mind is the only way to discover and correct where we are wrong when we are wrong.

Where is the evidence that the numbers are legion? Your link contained many statements but no links to real research.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Even if we, say, ignore the 30,000 people a year that smallpox killed, even if we narrow it down to the people who are paralyzed or disfigured from diseases like polio, and even if we assumed the rates of paralysis/disfigurement were on-par with rates of autism, and even if we assumed that vaccines were responsible for 100% of autism, i still could make a strong case for vaccination.

Vaccines, antibiotics, and anatomy are the three major medical science breakthroughs in all of human civilization. We almost completely wiped out diseases that decimated populations. And, really, that's the problem. We don't see the effects of "not being vaccinated" anymore. We don't know what vaccination buys us, so we take it for granted.

Well, i think people should be able to opt out of vaccinations, but i think it could be reasonable for there to be consequences as a result. It could jeopardize eligibility for public attendance at, say, a public school or a football game, and i would argue justifiably so.

All of us kids had to have had our DPT shots before we were allowed to go to public school. That was back in the dark ages. Those parents who could not or would not provide a certificate proving their kid was vaccinated were required to arrange for private schooling, tutors, or home school. It was as simple as that. And it was a good rule. But that plus the smallpox vaccination a bit later were all that was required. Now kids can receive up to two dozen vaccinations up to age 5 or 6 or so.

And along with the increase of vaccinations, we have seen a similar increase in the incidents of autism. A correlation or are vaccines the cause of autism? So far the studies have not come up with any conclusive evidence for that. But those doing the studies aren't the parents who are seeing their child change before their eyes.

I have been the position of having the nurse assuring me my kid was just fine, but I was with him and saw what was going on. She didn't believe me, but after pitching a royal hissy fit she finally called in the doctor who just happened to be there when one of the extremely painful spasms hit him. He was savvy enough to immediately diagnose it as a reaction to a medication they were regularly giving him. A very very VERY rare reaction, so the nurse could understandably be unaware, but nevertheless the 'expert' in that case didn't have a clue what was actually going on. She had given that medication to probably thousands of other children with no ill effect whatsoever.

I say in the vaccines vs autism controversy, we cannot just dismiss the observations of parents who know their kids. Again probably the vaccines are not the culprit, but I say an open mind and considering all evidence is fully warrented.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Where is the evidence that the numbers are legion? Your link contained many statements but no links to real research.

And another point went sailing right over another head. . .

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

And another point went sailing right over another head. . .

Try providing links to real peer reviewed research in stead of insults. Your answer leads me to believe that you have no links. Stories from parents are not evidence.

 

[vash1012]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

What did the company state- Non addictive?

No, its a level 2 controlled substance precisely because its addictive and has been since its release. It's sales force was misbranding it as abuse resistant during its marketing, which it is not. The government brought a case against them for that. I am not aware of any situation where they said it was NON-addictive. They also severely restricted direct marketing to consumers and marketing to health care providers since then.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

So my child's life is less important that a child who cannot vaccinate?

Well, let's put it this way. THere is a 'herd immunity factor going on. If enough people don't vaccinate, then the chances of an epidemic goes up, and that puts those kids who are not vaccinated at risk.. and increases the chance of those people who don't vaccinate to have their kids get sick, and have secondary complications, and even death.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Thank you for proving that none of those deaths occurred in the US.

Actually, there are several deaths a year due to measles , and it is from people who are not vaccinated.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

To me, those children are indeed less important.


I will. Not injecting formaldehyde into my 6 pound baby, who's body has not yet developed the appropriate defenses to toxins, sounds like a good idea.

And, when it is your kid who gets measles and dies because you didn't vaccinate???

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

All of us kids had to have had our DPT shots before we were allowed to go to public school. That was back in the dark ages. Those parents who could not or would not provide a certificate proving their kid was vaccinated were required to arrange for private schooling, tutors, or home school. It was as simple as that. And it was a good rule. But that plus the smallpox vaccination a bit later were all that was required. Now kids can receive up to two dozen vaccinations up to age 5 or 6 or so.

And along with the increase of vaccinations, we have seen a similar increase in the incidents of autism. A correlation or are vaccines the cause of autism? So far the studies have not come up with any conclusive evidence for that. But those doing the studies aren't the parents who are seeing their child change before their eyes.

I have been the position of having the nurse assuring me my kid was just fine, but I was with him and saw what was going on. She didn't believe me, but after pitching a royal hissy fit she finally called in the doctor who just happened to be there when one of the extremely painful spasms hit him. He was savvy enough to immediately diagnose it as a reaction to a medication they were regularly giving him. A very very VERY rare reaction, so the nurse could understandably be unaware, but nevertheless the 'expert' in that case didn't have a clue what was actually going on. She had given that medication to probably thousands of other children with no ill effect whatsoever.

I say in the vaccines vs autism controversy, we cannot just dismiss the observations of parents who know their kids. Again probably the vaccines are not the culprit, but I say an open mind and considering all evidence is fully warrented.

You see, there is this little thing known as 'correlation does not equal causation '.

 

[devildavid]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

You are posting garbage.... what you know? Lol.

Under reporting adverse reactions has been put as high az 95%.

Your claim is garbage and unsubstantiated by any hard evidence.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

No, its a level 2 controlled substance precisely because its addictive and has been since its release. It's sales force was misbranding it as abuse resistant during its marketing, which it is not. The government brought a case against them for that. I am not aware of any situation where they said it was NON-addictive. They also severely restricted direct marketing to consumers and marketing to health care providers since then.

If you're interested, the LA Times did a great (disturbing as hell) series on Oxycontin. It starts here, but it's a multi-part series you can access where it says, "Read the stories": 'You want a description of hell?' OxyContin's 12-hour problem #InvestigatingOxy - Los Angeles Times

Bottom line is in a lot of ways they're just drug dealers in suits.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

All of us kids had to have had our DPT shots before we were allowed to go to public school. That was back in the dark ages. Those parents who could not or would not provide a certificate proving their kid was vaccinated were required to arrange for private schooling, tutors, or home school. It was as simple as that. And it was a good rule. But that plus the smallpox vaccination a bit later were all that was required. Now kids can receive up to two dozen vaccinations up to age 5 or 6 or so.

And along with the increase of vaccinations, we have seen a similar increase in the incidents of autism. A correlation or are vaccines the cause of autism? So far the studies have not come up with any conclusive evidence for that. But those doing the studies aren't the parents who are seeing their child change before their eyes.

I have been the position of having the nurse assuring me my kid was just fine, but I was with him and saw what was going on. She didn't believe me, but after pitching a royal hissy fit she finally called in the doctor who just happened to be there when one of the extremely painful spasms hit him. He was savvy enough to immediately diagnose it as a reaction to a medication they were regularly giving him. A very very VERY rare reaction, so the nurse could understandably be unaware, but nevertheless the 'expert' in that case didn't have a clue what was actually going on. She had given that medication to probably thousands of other children with no ill effect whatsoever.

I say in the vaccines vs autism controversy, we cannot just dismiss the observations of parents who know their kids. Again probably the vaccines are not the culprit, but I say an open mind and considering all evidence is fully warrented.

I believe the studies show that some vaccines are an overwhelmingly good deal with respect to no vaccines, no matter how related to autism, by the numbers.

I further believe that the studies that test a relationship between vaccination and autism found no relationship.

I can appreciate that my beliefs mean very little to other people, especially parents who are concerned about what they might be exposing their children to.

I sympathize for parents of children who are diagnosed with autism. However, i would rather be autistic than, say, being paralyzed by polio or being killed by smallpox. It's kinda mean to autistic people to suggest that it's worse than death. I suppose that's just another one of my opinionated beliefs.

It is unfortunate that we must make this choice. The choice to harm the few to protect the many. It isn't fair for the parents of the children who are effected. They pay the price so that the rest of us may enjoy healthier, happier lives. It's a terrible thing, really, for some people, but i think it's still better than the alternative, overall.

We should not fool ourselves into thinking that natural life is some noble, pure thing. The life of man is "nasty, brutish, and short." These naturally occurring diseases are absolutely tragic, the hundreds of thousands of people effected every year by these diseases suffered.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

That site is owned by Trevor Gunn, a homeopath. He's not a doctor and he is an anti-vaxxer. Enough said.https://trevorgunn.com/Vaccine-Side-Effects.com WHOIS, DNS, & Domain Info - DomainTools"Hello, good evening and welcome to the second of my alternative view 3 blog posts. The subject of this post? Trevor Gunn and his talk on vaccination: the facts…From what I can discern from google Trevor Gunn is a homeopath who questions the germ theory of disease. One who questions the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. The following is from here and describes a talk that seems similar to that which Mr Gunn will be giving.“Far more significant than an imperfect drug, severe side-effects or ineffective intervention, is the impact of a conventional medical approach to illness on our perception of what we are capable of as human beings. By investigating not only which ideas and approaches have dominated modern health care, but also why, we shall be investigating the psychological, philosophical and commercial pressures that have helped to shape modern medicine and continue to shape us as human beings.”Reading between the lines this seems to be standard anti-vax nonsense, indeed this seems backed up by Mr Gunns correspondence with the WHO. In which he questions whether the symptoms of measles are “wholly negative to the individual” and then goes on at length to describe the immuno-response to measles at great length. It seems almost churlish, almost but not quite because essentially what Gunn is advocating is the “measles isn’t harmful” canard, to point out that yes, while the bodies natural immuno-reponse to an infection or microbe isn’t wholly negative it’s often preferable not to have to rely on the bodies immuno-response in the first place. Particularly if you are an immuno-compromised individual that contracts measles or one of the 197,000 people who yearly die from the disease."https://andyourelectronmicroscope.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/trevor-gunn-vaccination-the-facts/

I almost didnt post the link because i knew the concept and facts would be easily dismissed.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Your claim is garbage and unsubstantiated by any hard evidence.

Besides studies i have experience. Hide in a hole. :lol:

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

I almost didnt post the link because i knew the concept and facts would be easily dismissed.

Very easily. The guy is a quack and a crook. I've heard of him. As soon as I read your link his name came to mind. You appear to be under the misapprehension that you are the only person here who has researched this subject. What facts? Name some.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Besides studies i have experience. Hide in a hole. :lol:

Really? Where are your peer reviewed papers?

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

Here are 75 studies. All you have is your experience. I'll go with the science. Your opinion is worthless.
Just the Vax: 75 studies that show no link between vaccines and autism UPDATED to 107

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

A meta-analysis of ten studies involving more than 1.2 million children reaffirms that vaccines don’t cause autism. If anything, immunization was associated with decreased risk that children would develop autism, a possibility that’s strongest with the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/scienc...ms-no-association-between-vaccines-and-autism

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

I almost didnt post the link because i knew the concept and facts would be easily dismissed.

And, the reason it could be easily dismissed is that this person is not qualified, and is into health concepts that are , well, falsified, such as homopath. In other words, your source is nuts, when you evaluate it entirely on medical issues OTHER than vaccines. The fact he is taking an anti-vaxxer and is giving false information about vaccines just fits the previously established pattern.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Vaccine skeptic Robert Kennedy Jr. says Trump asked him to lead commission on ‘va

And, the reason it could be easily dismissed is that this person is not qualified, and is into health concepts that are , well, falsified, such as homopath. In other words, your source is nuts, when you evaluate it entirely on medical issues OTHER than vaccines. The fact he is taking an anti-vaxxer and is giving false information about vaccines just fits the previously established pattern.

Using quackery to shore up an argument is never a good idea.