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'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia[W:258]

Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

I don't see much counter arguing from anybody... just, "you crazy bodi".

Yeah but why are 'borders racist'? Canada keeps it's border with the USA under tight restrictions, it doesn't want the likes of us going there to cause trouble. Is that a problem? I don't think so.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

The illegal aliens don't take those jobs away from Americans. The employers take them away from Americans, and give them to illegal aliens. Greedy bastard employers lure those illegals into your country and give them your jobs because they make big bucks off cheap labour. Nothing will be done about the problem as long as rich, influential people are allowed to make those big bucks off cheap labour. You want the problem solved? Toss a few golf course operators and landscaping contractors and hotel owners into jail, fine their asses, maybe shut down their businesses, and see how fast the problem gets solved.

I hasten to thank you for your post. I disagree with you, but I thank you. For years I've told my fellow Americans that penalizing employers for hiring undocumented workers is a socialist solution. You, being from Canada, now gives credence to that view.

If you penalize employers for hiring foreigners, the companies eventually leave for a more profitable atmosphere - like Ford relocating to China. The REAL solution is providing significant tax breaks for employers that hire an all American staff, take people off unemployment / welfare / provide jobs for the handicapped AND bring jobs back to the U.S.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

They'harboring federal criminals.

Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? How do you know that, just because a person is without papers, they committed a crime?
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? How do you know that, just because a person is without papers, they committed a crime?

If they crossed our borders without papers, they are criminals. Sanctuary anything try to make sure they never get their day in court. So we can't know, can we?
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

If they crossed our borders without papers, they are criminals. Sanctuary anything try to make sure they never get their day in court. So we can't know, can we?

I worked in immigration law, so what I'm going to say to you goes beyond mere opinion. It's highly unpopular, but it is factual.

It is not a crime for people to cross the border; it is a civil violation of the federal laws. There is a statute in Title 8 that, on its face, makes it appear to be a crime, but upon further examination, it does no such thing. It is extremely complex. There are a number of immigration related crimes, but you literally have to catch someone at the border before they are relevant.

Once a person is in the United States, they are in violation of the law, but being here is not a crime and the penalty is deportation.

My objections to calling people criminals absent due process are quite varied, but to give you an analogy: Calling those people criminals could lead to precedents whereby a person who makes an improper U Turn become a felon without anyone ever having witnessed the actual event.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

I hasten to thank you for your post. I disagree with you, but I thank you. For years I've told my fellow Americans that penalizing employers for hiring undocumented workers is a socialist solution. You, being from Canada, now gives credence to that view.

If you penalize employers for hiring foreigners, the companies eventually leave for a more profitable atmosphere - like Ford relocating to China. The REAL solution is providing significant tax breaks for employers that hire an all American staff, take people off unemployment / welfare / provide jobs for the handicapped AND bring jobs back to the U.S.

You're assuming that companies that hire illegal aliens are very large corporations that have the option of packing up and moving across borders. I doubt that. I bet Ford, for example, vets it's new hires to be sure they're not in a position of breaking the law.
And there's nothing socialist about me. I'm a liberal.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

I worked in immigration law, so what I'm going to say to you goes beyond mere opinion. It's highly unpopular, but it is factual.

It is not a crime for people to cross the border; it is a civil violation of the federal laws. There is a statute in Title 8 that, on its face, makes it appear to be a crime, but upon further examination, it does no such thing. It is extremely complex. There are a number of immigration related crimes, but you literally have to catch someone at the border before they are relevant.

Once a person is in the United States, they are in violation of the law, but being here is not a crime and the penalty is deportation.

My objections to calling people criminals absent due process are quite varied, but to give you an analogy: Calling those people criminals could lead to precedents whereby a person who makes an improper U Turn become a felon without anyone ever having witnessed the actual event.

More than a few legal experts disagree with you.

Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally? - AllLaw.com

One of many similar sites.

Jail time and/or fines and deportation are the penalties.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Another.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

Can you back your claim? I'd be interested.

Of course I can back my claim. I can cite you the words of the highest ranking officials in the United States. That would not be enough. How about former U.S. Attorneys that you know? Nope. That would not be good enough. It is important that those who obsess over immigration "win" on this question. IF you knew the whole story, you'd be content to let it stand: it is a civil violation and deportation is the penalty. Here's the bare bones of your answer and it's highly complex:

The Fifth Amendment provides:

" nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;..."

So, no person can be tried for the same offence twice. It would be double jeopardy. The government cannot do it to you, but the private sector can (like O.J. Simpson being tried for a crime and then sued in a civil court.) But, the government cannot do it.

Now the next issue we are going to consider is JURISDICTION. The highest Court in the land, the United States Supreme Court RULED:

"Removal is a civil matter, and one of its principal features is the broad discretion exercised by immigration officials, who must decide whether to pursue removal at all. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), an agency within the Department of Homeland Security, is responsible for identifying, apprehending, and removing illegal aliens. ...
it is not a crime for a removable alien to remain in the United States
."

Arizona v United States 641 F. 3d 339 (2012)

Bear in mind their rulings supersede all opinions, statutes, and everything else as they are the final arbiters.

But, you say well they had to enter illegally and that was a crime... But, even if that were true (and it's not) you have to prove it and that requires probable cause. If Hosea is in the United States and by all outward appearances is doing everything "legal like" it's kind of hard to establish probable cause in order to justify detaining him.

According to the Chief Actuary of the Social Security Administration, 75 percent of the people in this country without papers have gotten an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number and pay the same taxes as you and I. The Constitution guarantees Right against self incrimination so it's illegal for the government to try and get an undocumented foreigner to rat themselves out.

I would submit that, for all practical purposes, it makes better sense to pursue the civil course of action when you have undocumented foreigners you want out of the country. Title 8 USC 1325 (the very statute I accurately predicted you'd rely on) talks about both civil and criminal violations. And Title 8 is a very badly worded law. I'm going to quote a part of it, bold the relevant parts and explain this to you:

They are making me post this in two separate postings... bear with me
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties. Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry);...


Now, notice that Title 8 (Eight) references Title 18 (Eighteen.) IF Title 8 could impose a criminal penalty, it would not be necessary to reference Title 18. It would just make all the relevant actions a crime. But, it don't. And so we see that eluding the authorities, willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, are all punishable under Title 18 (which is the CRIMINAL CODE, btw.) Let me give you an example from this statute. Let's go to Title 18 USC 1001:

"Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully--

 falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

 makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;  or

 makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined
..."

18 U.S.C. § 1001 - U.S. Code Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 1001 | FindLaw

Now, we get to the part of Improper Entry. We aren't identifying an illegal or even unlawful act - it's called improper. AND Improper Entry is NOT listed in Title 18 of the Criminal Code as being a crime. If you hauled an undocumented foreigner into a criminal court and your only charge is improper entry, the defense attorney is going to say, "Motion to dismiss for failure to state a charge upon which this court has jurisdiction." Your case is gone. Again, the United States Supreme Court ruled:

"immigration officials, who must decide whether to pursue removal at all..." (U.S. v Arizona, previously cited) So, now you ask the highest ranking immigration official. Let me give you a standing ruling by Attorney General Michael Mukasey on this:

"Aliens in removal proceedings have no right to counsel, including Government-appointed counsel, under the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution because the Sixth Amendment applies only to criminal proceedings and removal proceedings are civil in nature"

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2014/07/25/3632.pdf

Summed up for you: Improper Entry is not a Title 18 Crime. The United States Supreme Court has ruled that immigration cases are in the jurisdiction of immigration officials. Immigration officials have ruled that removal is to be a civil issue.

Now, had an undocumented foreigner committed a crime and was caught coming into the United States, they would be charged with the crimes separately and the improper entry would be a separate charge - EXCEPT that even if you're here legally, committing a crime is grounds for deportation... and we're right back on that treadmill. Improper Entry is not a Title 18 crime; the judicial branch has to acquiesce to immigration officials and the law says improper entry is a civil law.

I think it's all really irrelevant because, regardless of which branch of the government is involved, it results in deportation. So, you cited your source. When I learned what I just told you, I got my information from the highest ranking official (at the time) over at the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security. Her name was Janet Napolitano. What did she say?

And yes, when we find illegal workers, yes, appropriate action, some of which is criminal, most of that is civil, because crossing the border is not a crime per se. It is civil."

DHS Chief Napolitano: Illegal Immigration Is Not a Crime
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

It's unbelievable, I have to give you the last sentences in a third posting:

Even a former U.S. Attorney you know that worked those cases understood the law as I described it to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0

I told you this is highly complex. You have to work in it every day just to have a rough understanding of it.

Let me assure you, it would be highly dangerous to the Liberties of Americans if we tried to treat this subject as a crime.

Thank you for your patience.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Coming here legally costs money ... a lot of money that these poor people do not have.

But they are rich enough to afford a Coyote who could leave them to die in the back of a delivery truck?
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

But they are rich enough to afford a Coyote who could leave them to die in the back of a delivery truck?

These were obviously not the poorest then.
Many rant about the similar situation in the Mediterranean where the tide of humanity seeking security in the North is literally washing up on the shores. These "illegals" are the best and brightest of wherever they came from, the middle classes who can afford the bribes, kickbacks and transportation. The really well off fly in, like half the US "illegals".
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Well, I'd say there's a lot of folks who would disagree with you about the existence of White Privilege, but that's another debate (perhaps). That said though you're still dodging the question. So let me try approach more simply in an effort to understand you.

Is it racist to put forward a policy, like drawing up a country's borders, not motivated by racism, and where there is no intent to disadvantage a particular race but, inadvertently affects one race or group?

You don't realize I can't see how you're defining racism. To me racism is proactive. It's deliberate. It's drawing a border because you don't want a certain race in those borders. Is that you think?

Not all borders are racist... but the US Southern Border is. Borders between Scotland and England are not though, for example.

They'harboring federal criminals.

Christie: Being undocumented not a crime - NY Daily News

I can appreciate this. But, this argues not for illegal immigration but for expanding legal immigration. The US has had many legal immigration expansions that opened our borders to immigrants to meet the need of employment in different job sectors. In fact, our immigration policies, or lack thereof are the most lenient in the modern world.

Does ignoring the illegal side of this in the name of compassion (or because you're calling us racists otherwise) mean that we have to accept that we don't know who is here, how many people are here, and therefore what affect they are truly having on the nation?

What good is it if illegal immigrants fight to come here only to find out they can't get a job because we've got too many people here and not enough jobs to support them?

What good does it do to those in poverty or those who are legal immigrants here already that can't find gainful employment or can't earn a wage that supports their family because the workforce is flooded with workers that suppress the lower end wages? And to be sure it's hurting legal Hispanics and African Americans

Are you concerned about those folks?

Do you think that immigrants from Mexico are reading the daily economic briefings regarding job opportunities in America prior to coming here?

so you can't actually name the policies got it. so you are just ranting over nothing.

Being concerned about human rights violations is ranting over nothing?

Yeah but why are 'borders racist'? Canada keeps it's border with the USA under tight restrictions, it doesn't want the likes of us going there to cause trouble. Is that a problem? I don't think so.

Canadians welcome Americans and wish more of us went up there to spend our money... :lol:
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

But they are rich enough to afford a Coyote who could leave them to die in the back of a delivery truck?

That is a last ditch effort often fueled by misinformation provided by criminals and cartels...
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Being concerned about human rights violations is ranting over nothing?

what human right violations?
I doubt you can name these just like you couldn't name what policies were racist.

I know you are trying but you are doing a really horrible job.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

what human right violations?
I doubt you can name these just like you couldn't name what policies were racist.

I know you are trying but you are doing a really horrible job.

what human right violations?
I doubt you can name these just like you couldn't name what policies were racist.

I know you are trying but you are doing a really horrible job.

Denying people based upon race has a long history in the United States... do you deny this?

Chinese Exclusion Act - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com

http://encyclopedia.densho.org/Naturalization_Act_of_1790/

Naturalization Act (1790) - Dictionary definition of Naturalization Act (1790) | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1917

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/immigration-act
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Not all borders are racist... but the US Southern Border is. Borders between Scotland and England are not though, for example.



Christie: Being undocumented not a crime - NY Daily News



Do you think that immigrants from Mexico are reading the daily economic briefings regarding job opportunities in America prior to coming here?



Being concerned about human rights violations is ranting over nothing?



Canadians welcome Americans and wish more of us went up there to spend our money... :lol:

I noticed that you quoted Chris Christie. I would have done so, but my post was way too long. Christie is the worst form of lying politician. I want you to see how he lies and panders to those who don't understand the immigration laws:

"Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it's not a criminal act, Christie said.

Don't let people make you believe that that's a crime that the U.S. Attorney's Office should be doing something about," he added of entering the country illegally. "It is not.
"

Chris Christie On Illegal Immigration

When the right got outraged, Christie then "clarified" his comments and really screwed himself. Here is what he said in a joke of a clarification:

"Q: But he was later asked a hypothetical question about someone sneaking across the border and said that's not a crime either. Is that true, too?

A: No. "Improper entry by an alien" as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code.
.."

Christie clarifies: 'Illegal' immigrants are in civil violation | NJ.com

Now I realize that this was a couple of years before the United States cleared up the issue, but look carefully. Christie claims that Improper entry is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code (sic.) I doubled over laughing at the double talking cow dung by this former U.S. Attorney. If you read my long winded posts, they refute the arguments that the right is fed by political propaganda prostitutes. But, now you have proof that Christie lies.

Title 8 (EIGHT) regarding Improper Entry (specifically Title 8 USC 1325) is a civil code within the Aliens and Nationality Code. The Criminal Code is Title 18 (EIGHTEEN) and Improper entry is NOT a crime in Title 8 (Eight.) Therefore, regardless of what people think that statute says, it absolutely is not a crime and has been ruled as such.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia


May I take an alternate view on your post?

Based upon what you say, the objective seems to be that America has some ugly racist past to cover up. Yet the United States is the only country I know of that is established on unalienable Rights. And, while they engaged in slavery, they were not the first but, the United States was among the first countries to outlaw it.

If there is a problem with any country wanting to have a homeland for a specific people, let's be fair and honest. There are more Chinese in China than there are white people on the face of the earth. They have in excess of 1 BILLION citizens and they represent 19% of the world's population.

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/nationality/han/

According to another article:



"As a large united multi-national state, China is composed of 56 ethnic groups. Among them Han Chinese account for 91.59% of the overall Chinese population and the other 55 make up the remaining 8.41%"

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/nationality/

In Japan, the population is broken down as follows:

"98.5% Japanese, Koreans 0.5%, Chinese 0.4%, other 0.6%"

http://www.answers.com/Q/Ethnicity_breakdown_of_japan

How come there is a double standard for the United States when we naturalize more legal immigrants and accept them as citizens than any country in the world? This year alone, the United States will allow some 780.000 people to become citizens.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

Denying people based upon race has a long history in the United States... do you deny this?

since race has nothing to do with immigration laws i have nothing to deny.
but i can see why you would bring up an irrelevant point though.

so please list the racist immigration laws we have.
so far you haven't done so. which is what i thought.

the fact you have to go back to 1917 is a really poor attempt we are not talking about 1917
we are talking about now.

you are still trying too hard.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

since race has nothing to do with immigration laws i have nothing to deny.
but i can see why you would bring up an irrelevant point though.

so please list the racist immigration laws we have.
so far you haven't done so. which is what i thought.

the fact you have to go back to 1917 is a really poor attempt we are not talking about 1917
we are talking about now.

you are still trying too hard.

I never said we had racist immigration laws, or at least I never meant to imply that... I said that borders, specifically borders along the Southern USA and like borders around the world... are racist in design. All your Straw Man attempts don't help.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

I never said we had racist immigration laws, or at least I never meant to imply that... I said that borders, specifically borders along the Southern USA and like borders around the world... are racist in design. All your Straw Man attempts don't help.

and i quote you directly.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/immi...s-virginia-post1067477339.html#post1067477339
Not rogue in the sense that they are running amuck in the USA against the USA but in that they are running amuck with regards to immigrants who are "violating" immoral racist immigration policies...

and before you say policies they are laws as well. as they have been voted on and approved by congress so don't even try that route.
so would you like to try again?

you clearly said they were racist and then you said they were human right violations.

i have asked you a couple of time to say which ones were racist or human right violations and you have yet to do so.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

since race has nothing to do with immigration laws i have nothing to deny.
but i can see why you would bring up an irrelevant point though.

so please list the racist immigration laws we have.
so far you haven't done so. which is what i thought.

the fact you have to go back to 1917 is a really poor attempt we are not talking about 1917
we are talking about now.

you are still trying too hard.



The immigration laws forced through Congress by Ted Kennedy are very much racist. They were calculated so as to dilute the white vote and make whites a minority in America.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

The immigration laws forced through Congress by Ted Kennedy are very much racist. They were calculated so as to dilute the white vote and make whites a minority in America.

stop with this nonsense. what you are blathering about is no worse than what bodhi is blathering about.
it has no more merit than he does.
 
Re: 'Undocumented Worker' Arrested for Two Homicides in Virginia

stop with this nonsense. what you are blathering about is no worse than what bodhi is blathering about.
it has no more merit than he does.

Just because you say so?

All you have to do is study demographics for fifty years before and fifty years after the Kennedy Immigration Laws. Proof is in the pudding.

http://www.jtl.org/auster/PNS/PNS_I.html

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/geopolitical-origins-us-immigration-act-1965
 
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