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Two black men arrested at Philly Starbucks for trespassing

Absurd. They have access to all the information we do and more. They spoke with the manager. They have store video. They spoke with other employees. They have the most information about the incident. Don't pretend an establishment has never responded to allegations with "we stand by our policy" before. Don't pretend Starbucks is the victim of a conspiracy. Accept the facts. Stop with the "but jet fuel can't melt steel" BS.

I never said that Starbucks was the victim of anything. I said they have made a business calculation. It doesn't matter if the manager was racially motivated or not. It only matters that it has been portrayed as such. Therefore, it's much easier to go along to get along. This happens all the time, not just with Starbucks.
 
I never said that Starbucks was the victim of anything. I said they have made a business calculation. It doesn't matter if the manager was racially motivated or not. It only matters that it has been portrayed as such. Therefore, it's much easier to go along to get along. This happens all the time, not just with Starbucks.

Racist CT.
 
Maybe the others weren't noticed. That can happen in a crowded shop in a city. Or maybe the witnesses are wrong. They never spend enough time to notice.

Maybe people like you are in denial, and proud of it.

There's a lot of that going on within the white victimhood movement.
 
You imagine all sorts of stuff and then respond to what you've imagined. That seems to be typical of many of the liberals in these forums.
:lamo Projection. When stiff-brained ideologues are challenged with arguments they cannot refute.....the do just was you did: they redirect the arguments they couldn't rebut onto their opponents. It's very simple-minded stuff. Of course, you and I both know that you can't rebut a word of what I've said.

I'm not emotional, not in the least. I've been around the block too many times with people like you who claim their opinion as fact and the other guy's opinion as "ignorant rantings". I also utterly reject your characterization of me or anything I've said as racist or bigoted. That's just a fallback position to make you feel good about yourself and take the discussion off the rails.
1. Of course you're emotional. Every argument you've presented in this thread has been a baseless, emotional opinion. You just don't realize it, because you're an ideologue.
2. Your "block" must be pretty small, because your arguments are high school level.
3. Like most ideologues, your problem is that you cannot distinguish facts from opinions because you are so emotionally invested in your existing biases.
4. I haven't called you a bigot, nor have I labeled you a racist. What I have said is that your opinions are a reflection of ignorance and bias, both of which you have proven (over and over) with your responses as well as your inablity to answer ANY of the simple questions/challenges I've directed to you.

I also find it amusing that you say I have a hostility to "objective science". Not at all, I simply reject the idea that these so called "studies" of Trump voters are in any way objective. You cannot prove they are objective, either, you only claim that they are somehow "scientific".

You just proved it, again. You are a typical right winger who believes in "liberal" conspiracies of academia and media. Yet "reject" studies as "objective" but you have ZERO idea as to how to assess the validity of an experiment or study. And, apparently, you think that everyone is just as clueless as you are about these things. Unfortunately for you, I'm not an anti-intellectual, like you. "Objective science" is not arbitrary. It is something that can be (and is) tested. So don't mistake the rest of us as sufferers of your anti-science ignorance. There are objective ways to measure bias....ways that social scientists have validated and which are used to conduct research like that which has repeated proven that racial resentment was THE primary predictive variable in support for Donald Trump in 2016.


To suggest that the driving motivation for people voting for Trump was hatred of black people, is idiotic drivel.

:roll: Geez, another emotional response. Word of advice: since you can't control your emotions, just QUOTE me. Don't try to summarize me, because you tend to "embellish" when you do that. I said racial resentment (not "hatred of black people") was the primary predictive variable in support for Donald Trump in 2016. That is a FACT that has been documented in multiple published social scientific studies. Those studies are readily available. And it really doesn't matter what Trump apologists and others in denial like you want to believe. If some of you Trump apologists also hold " hatred for black people" (and clearly, many of you do)....that's your business. I really don't care.

You also display the exact traits I was describing, an air of intellectual and moral superiority grounded in nothing more than your own belief system. When you bring that to the table, you've pretty much lost going in.

There you go with with your snowflake attitude and grievances again. But since you brought it up.....let's be clear about it. I've never claimed moral superiority, but it is pretty obvious at this point that there's is no "air" of intellectual superiority. There is a very real intellectual divide between you and I. You are an emotional, opinion based ideologue who believes in "liberal facts" and "conservative facts", rather than objective data and science. I believe in objective facts and science, and I come prepared to back up my arguments with those facts and science. That's what this thread has demonstrated. Now, if that bothers you, so be it. Stop whining. Don't be a snowflake about it.
 
Now, to get back to the original topic, you said I made up "fake facts" about this case. Can you name one? Where is it? I said the men were arrested for failing to comply with an officer's orders. That's a fact. I said the officers were not disciplined. That's a fact. The other side claims that the manager acted out of racial bias. That's AN OPINION. See the difference here? It's possible that was a factor and it's possible it played no part at all.

The officers weren't "disciplined" (which is irrelevant), but that were wrong to make those arrests according to the Philly Police Chief. Read the story and watch the news clips of the Philly Police Chief. He stated that while the officers "acted within the scope of the law", they were wrong to arrest those two men when they did. So again, your fake-facts (i.e. your opinions and wishes) really don't matter in this case.

And a few of your other fake-facts in this thread, all of which were nothing more than personal opinions that you could not back up with ANY objective data:
1. "If two white guys had been arrested under the identical circumstances, we never would have heard a peep. ... " [/I]We already know, for a FACT that white customers in that Starbucks at the same time had NOT been thrown out for not purchasing AND were allowed to access the restrooms. So this was not a mistake on your part, it was a lie.
2. "While the manager has been thrown under the bus... she was following company policy. Yet, she loses her job because the people in question were black." NO, she was NOT following policy. She was following her own policy that she put in place without consulting her superiors. And as the CEO of Starbucks made clear, she was removed from her position at that store (not fired) because of it.
3. "Fact is that PC is...little better than how people have to live under totalitarian dictatorships ". :lamo this was Alex Jones/Mark Levin/Sean Hannity blathering....was just plain stupid


As for the rest of your ramblings and personal attacks, I won't waste more time debunking them.

:lamo Of course you won't. I already predicted that. You won't....because you can't. I've already offered to post OBJECTIVE research proving that racial resentment was the primary predictive variable in Trump voters in 2016....but you (being the anti-science, anti-intellectual ideologue that you are) declared preemptively that your reject any/all science that challenges your right wing prejudices and fantasies. So of course you aren't going to attempt to debate me substantively. You're way over your head in this discussion.
 
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The officers weren't "disciplined" (which is irrelevant), but that were wrong to make those arrests according to the Philly Police Chief. Read the story and watch the news clips of the Philly Police Chief. He stated that while the officers "acted within the scope of the law", they were wrong to arrest those two men when they did. So again, your fake-facts (i.e. your opinions and wishes) really don't matter in this case.

And a few of your other fake-facts in this thread, all of which were nothing more than personal opinions that you could not back up with ANY objective data:
1. "If two white guys had been arrested under the identical circumstances, we never would have heard a peep. ... " We already know, for a FACT that "white guys" in that Starbucks had NOT been thrown out for not purchasing AND were allowed to access the restrooms. So this was not a mistake on your part, it was a lie.
2. "While the manager has been thrown under the bus... she was following company policy. Yet, she loses her job because the people in question were black." NO, she was NOT following policy. And as the CEO of Starbucks made clear, she was removed from her position at that store (not fired) because of it.
3. "Fact is that PC is...little better than how people have to live under totalitarian dictatorships ". :lamo this was Alex Jones/Mark Levin/Sean Hannity blathering....was just plain stupid


:lamo Of course you won't. I already predicted that. You won't....because you can't. I've already offered to post OBJECTIVE research proving that racial resentment was the primary predictive variable in Trump voters in 2016....but you (being the anti-science, anti-intellectual ideologue that you are) declared preemptively that your reject any/all science that challenges your right wing prejudices and fantasies. So of course you aren't going to attempt to debate me substantively. You're way over your head in this discussion.

Which white guys for a fact were not asked to buy something in order to use the restroom? Name them. If you know it "for a fact" then it should not be too hard to provide their names.

She was following company policy, which was to allow the stores to establish their own policies on this issue. The company did in fact "throw her under the bus", due mainly to the backlash, not her actions. She would have likely been only reprimanded had this not made the media the way it did. And then only for bad judgment on how to handle the situation. Heck, she likely would have been reprimanded had they actually simply just left and filed a complaint instead of refusing to leave, even when the cops asked them to do so.

All I have to say about Trump is that he is one of the biggest idiots there is and is a horrible President, but has absolutely zero to do with this issue, situation.
 
I said they have made a business calculation. It doesn't matter if the manager was racially motivated or not. It only matters that it has been portrayed as such. Therefore, it's much easier to go along to get along. This happens all the time, not just with Starbucks.

And your problems with "facts vs opinions" just seem to become more pronounced with each new reply.

You're substituting your personal opinions for the actual FACTS of the case, again. And the FACTS are that Starbucks' CEO said the store manager was wrong.....and that the manager was NOT following any kind of company policy (as you and other right wingers keep insisting).........and that, as a company, Starbucks is going to take actions to hopefully prevent this kind of thing from happening again in their stores.

These baseless notions of yours, that Starbucks made a "business calculation" to "go along to get along"....and that all that matters is that "it is portrayed" as racism.......originated in the fertilizer-rich environment that is your brain, and are contradicting by all the known facts. Starbucks said they (as represented by their manager at that store on that day)....were just WRONG, and that the two men did NOTHING to warrant being asked to leave (much less arrested). Period. End of story. The fact that some of you continue to make up your own versions of this story is indicative of the victimhood complexes you have. Most rational people saw this incident for what it was. Only the "white men are the real victims" crowd continues to see this a case of reverse racism.
 
Which white guys for a fact were not asked to buy something in order to use the restroom? Name them. If you know it "for a fact" then it should not be too hard to provide their names.

"Guys"? Why do you keep saying white "guys"? The two eye witnesses who have gone on the record were white women, but apparently that's not good enough for you? We also know from the videos and the statements of the two "white women" that multiple white men expressed outrage and said things like "I do that (sit without buying) all the time". Some of that can be heard in the videos, in fact. So we know that white people were sitting in that Starbucks at that time without buying something because multiple witnesses stated as much. And if you've ever spent time in a coffee shop (Starbucks or other) you'd know that "sittin' without buyin'" is a regular, daily happening. It's part of coffee shop culture. But let's not be coy here. This has nothing to do with the facts for you. You're just interested in plausible deniability so that you can continue whining.

She was following company policy, which was to allow the stores to establish their own policies on this issue.

Wrong. That is NOT company policy, as the CEO has noted. At best, that was a store policy established by the manager, who obviously did so without permission from corporate. But I realize that most of your argument is predicated upon this LIE (about company policy) being accepted as a "fact", so I get why you continue to repeat it.


The company did in fact "throw her under the bus", due mainly to the backlash, not her actions. She would have likely been only reprimanded had this not made the media the way it did. And then only for bad judgment on how to handle the situation. Heck, she likely would have been reprimanded had they actually simply just left and filed a complaint instead of refusing to leave, even when the cops asked them to do so.

:roll: Your opinions are NOT "facts", just because you feel them to be. That's not how things work in the fact-based community. What is it with some of you, that you seemingly ALWAYS get your personal opinions and feelings confused with objective facts? Geez, man. Everything you stated, above, is pure conjecture.......pure emotion-base opinion....and nothing else. The company removed her from her position at that store because of her poor judgment and for misrepresenting company policy. They made no claim of intentional personal bias on her part, but they do admit that the incident had all the markings of it.

Some of you guys have truly AWESOME abilities make up fake-facts (which by pure coincidence, of course, always happen to reaffirm you pre-existing biases).....and then repeat them as if they are accepted truths. I'm not an ideologue, so I just can't lower myself to that kind of standard for debate/discussion. You should all do some personal research on implicit bias. You really should.
 
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:lamo Projection. When stiff-brained ideologues are challenged with arguments they cannot refute.....the do just was you did: they redirect the arguments they couldn't rebut onto their opponents. It's very simple-minded stuff. Of course, you and I both know that you can't rebut a word of what I've said.


1. Of course you're emotional. Every argument you've presented in this thread has been a baseless, emotional opinion. You just don't realize it, because you're an ideologue.
2. Your "block" must be pretty small, because your arguments are high school level.
3. Like most ideologues, your problem is that you cannot distinguish facts from opinions because you are so emotionally invested in your existing biases.
4. I haven't called you a bigot, nor have I labeled you a racist. What I have said is that your opinions are a reflection of ignorance and bias, both of which you have proven (over and over) with your responses as well as your inablity to answer ANY of the simple questions/challenges I've directed to you.



You just proved it, again. You are a typical right winger who believes in "liberal" conspiracies of academia and media. Yet "reject" studies as "objective" but you have ZERO idea as to how to assess the validity of an experiment or study. And, apparently, you think that everyone is just as clueless as you are about these things. Unfortunately for you, I'm not an anti-intellectual, like you. "Objective science" is not arbitrary. It is something that can be (and is) tested. So don't mistake the rest of us as sufferers of your anti-science ignorance. There are objective ways to measure bias....ways that social scientists have validated and which are used to conduct research like that which has repeated proven that racial resentment was THE primary predictive variable in support for Donald Trump in 2016.




:roll: Geez, another emotional response. Word of advice: since you can't control your emotions, just QUOTE me. Don't try to summarize me, because you tend to "embellish" when you do that. I said racial resentment (not "hatred of black people") was the primary predictive variable in support for Donald Trump in 2016. That is a FACT that has been documented in multiple published social scientific studies. Those studies are readily available. And it really doesn't matter what Trump apologists and others in denial like you want to believe. If some of you Trump apologists also hold " hatred for black people" (and clearly, many of you do)....that's your business. I really don't care.



There you go with with your snowflake attitude and grievances again. But since you brought it up.....let's be clear about it. I've never claimed moral superiority, but it is pretty obvious at this point that there's is no "air" of intellectual superiority. There is a very real intellectual divide between you and I. You are an emotional, opinion based ideologue who believes in "liberal facts" and "conservative facts", rather than objective data and science. I believe in objective facts and science, and I come prepared to back up my arguments with those facts and science. That's what this thread has demonstrated. Now, if that bothers you, so be it. Stop whining. Don't be a snowflake about it.

Hilarious. You have to respond in a feverish scrawl but I'm the one who is emotional. All I said is that your "studies" aren't worth crap. 60+ million voters weren't driven by "resentment" of blacks. That's just baloney. They were sick of the prior eight years. Hillary was more of the same. Quite simple really. I also have to laugh at your points 1-3 above. I couldn't have described you better. BTW, what "simple questions and challenges" have you given me? Please tell me. All I see is a long winded load of BS attacking me personally.
 
The officers weren't "disciplined" (which is irrelevant), but that were wrong to make those arrests according to the Philly Police Chief. Read the story and watch the news clips of the Philly Police Chief. He stated that while the officers "acted within the scope of the law", they were wrong to arrest those two men when they did. So again, your fake-facts (i.e. your opinions and wishes) really don't matter in this case.

And a few of your other fake-facts in this thread, all of which were nothing more than personal opinions that you could not back up with ANY objective data:
1. "If two white guys had been arrested under the identical circumstances, we never would have heard a peep. ... " [/I]We already know, for a FACT that white customers in that Starbucks at the same time had NOT been thrown out for not purchasing AND were allowed to access the restrooms. So this was not a mistake on your part, it was a lie.
2. "While the manager has been thrown under the bus... she was following company policy. Yet, she loses her job because the people in question were black." NO, she was NOT following policy. She was following her own policy that she put in place without consulting her superiors. And as the CEO of Starbucks made clear, she was removed from her position at that store (not fired) because of it.
3. "Fact is that PC is...little better than how people have to live under totalitarian dictatorships ". :lamo this was Alex Jones/Mark Levin/Sean Hannity blathering....was just plain stupid




:lamo Of course you won't. I already predicted that. You won't....because you can't. I've already offered to post OBJECTIVE research proving that racial resentment was the primary predictive variable in Trump voters in 2016....but you (being the anti-science, anti-intellectual ideologue that you are) declared preemptively that your reject any/all science that challenges your right wing prejudices and fantasies. So of course you aren't going to attempt to debate me substantively. You're way over your head in this discussion.


Yes, I've offered OPINIONS. That's what this forum is about. If you don't like them, that's hardly my problem. You seem enamored of your own babble and that of like-minded windbags. Opinions counter to yours seem to upset you greatly causing you to erupt in a spate of verbal diarrhea that I'm supposed to wade through. Take out the personal attacks and other useless BS and you don't have much left. By the way, I never made any of the declarations you attribute to me about science. I simply reject the clownish, ideologically driven nonsense churned out by liberal "experts" about what drove people to vote for Trump and against Hillary Clinton.
 
And your problems with "facts vs opinions" just seem to become more pronounced with each new reply.

You're substituting your personal opinions for the actual FACTS of the case, again. And the FACTS are that Starbucks' CEO said the store manager was wrong.....and that the manager was NOT following any kind of company policy (as you and other right wingers keep insisting).........and that, as a company, Starbucks is going to take actions to hopefully prevent this kind of thing from happening again in their stores.

These baseless notions of yours, that Starbucks made a "business calculation" to "go along to get along"....and that all that matters is that "it is portrayed" as racism.......originated in the fertilizer-rich environment that is your brain, and are contradicting by all the known facts. Starbucks said they (as represented by their manager at that store on that day)....were just WRONG, and that the two men did NOTHING to warrant being asked to leave (much less arrested). Period. End of story. The fact that some of you continue to make up your own versions of this story is indicative of the victimhood complexes you have. Most rational people saw this incident for what it was. Only the "white men are the real victims" crowd continues to see this a case of reverse racism.

Of course Starbucks is going to do the things listed but if the manager's actions were not racially motivated, then why do them? Would this be happening had she called the police on two white patrons? Everyone knows the answer to that, even you. It never would have been a controversy. Oh, and speaking of "fertilizer rich environments" in the brain, nobody that I've seen is calling this reverse racism. You simply made that up. Again, the pertinent part of this story, especially for people like you, is that the two guys were black. That is what makes this controversial, nothing else.
 
You just proved it, again. You are a typical right winger who believes in "liberal" conspiracies of academia and media. Yet "reject" studies as "objective" but you have ZERO idea as to how to assess the validity of an experiment or study. And, apparently, you think that everyone is just as clueless as you are about these things. Unfortunately for you, I'm not an anti-intellectual, like you. "Objective science" is not arbitrary. It is something that can be (and is) tested. So don't mistake the rest of us as sufferers of your anti-science ignorance. There are objective ways to measure bias....ways that social scientists have validated and which are used to conduct research like that which has repeated proven that racial resentment was THE primary predictive variable in support for Donald Trump in 2016.


Here's an article that rather succinctly and persuasively explains Trump's appeal and his success in 2016 and it has nothing to do with the conclusions reached by your supposed "research". I guess this person is also a "stiff brained ideologue".




Some, undoubtedly, were white supremacists. All were prepared to live with his racist statements about Muslims, Mexicans and others. But are racism, bigotry and bias the main reasons people supported Trump? Certainly not. We argue instead that we need to analyze and understand the way he appealed to people and why he elicited their support. Moreover, we need to respect those we study if we want to understand their worldview, their preferences and their decisions.




https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-rsquo-s-appeal-what-psychology-tells-us/
 
All I said is that your "studies" aren't worth crap.
The funny part is that I haven't posted any of the studies, yet you've already determined they "aren't worth crap" simply because you were informed that the results conflict your fact-free, emotional, right wing brainwashing.

60+ million voters weren't driven by "resentment" of blacks. That's just baloney. They were sick of the prior eight years. Hillary was more of the same. Quite simple really.
Please try to focus. No one has ever claimed that all 60 million Trump voters were driven by racial resentment. What has been noted is that multiple peer-reviewed academic studies have proven that racial resentment was the #1 (among many) factors that was predictive of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 election. That is a FACT, Period. Now try to focus on that incontrovertible, scientifically documented FACT without shifting the subject to one of your may white entitlement/grievance issues, if you can.

BTW, what "simple questions and challenges" have you given me? Please tell me. All I see is a long winded load of BS attacking me personally.
We can start with your very first baseless claims:
1) that if 2 white guys had been arrested in a store...(presumably by a black manager, for not purchasing anything?)...no one would say anything.
2) that police blotters in cities validate/prove your argument

I (and others) asked you, way back then, to provide evidence to back up those early claims. You, of course, ran from those questions/challenges because you knew you had just made that stuff up based upon your own feelings at the time. Heck, I directly asked you how many police blotters you've recently reviewed, remember? You, of course, ran away from that question as well.

So we can start there. Address those early questions/challenges satisfactorily, or just admit that you were FOS at the time, ok? And, at the very least, stop whining when people tell you the politically incorrect truth about yourself.


Yes, I've offered OPINIONS. That's what this forum is about.
Don't start weaseling now, "Mr. Truth". You claimed them to be facts, not opinions. And when asked to present evidence to back them up, you couldn't do it. Throughout this thread, you have misrepresented your personal OPINIONS as the acknowledge facts of this case. I (and others) have been correcting you.


Opinions counter to yours seem to upset you greatly
Opinions that cannot be supported with facts are worthless drivel. That's what you've offered in this thread....worthless drivel based upon a privileged worldview. Barely a single documented, verifiable fact to back up your opinions. So as usual, your grasp of my perspective seems to be distorted.

Of course Starbucks is going to do the things listed but if the manager's actions were not racially motivated, then why do them?
That's a question for Starbucks' CEO. Most culturally informed people understand that this incident reeks of (at the very least) some implicit racial bias from the store manager. Obviously, the Starbucks' CEO agrees. That's why all of the faux-outrage from the usual white grievance/victimhood suspects that followed was so ridiculous.

Would this be happening had she called the police on two white patrons? Everyone knows the answer to that, even you. It never would have been a controversy.
Questions like this make it clear that a lot of people on your side of this issue simply do not really understand what racism is. The reports are that the manager was a white female....so.......NO, it would not be no claims of racism or implicit racial bias in the treatment of two white men asked to leave for not purchasing a product. Does that confuse you?
 
Here's an article that rather succinctly and persuasively explains Trump's appeal and his success in 2016 and it has nothing to do with the conclusions reached by your supposed "research". I guess this person is also a "stiff brained ideologue".Some, undoubtedly, were white supremacists. All were prepared to live with his racist statements about Muslims, Mexicans and others. But are racism, bigotry and bias the main reasons people supported Trump? Certainly not. We argue instead that we need to analyze and understand the way he appealed to people and why he elicited their support. Moreover, we need to respect those we study if we want to understand their worldview, their preferences and their decisions.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-rsquo-s-appeal-what-psychology-tells-us/

That's not research. It's an opinion piece. You don't understand the difference. All you know is that ANYTHING that reinforces your existing biases and feelings.........is "fact" and everything that does not is the work of "liberal academia" and "self appointed liberal elites", etc. I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but there is a body of published RESEARCH out there showing the impact of racial resentment on support for Trump. And the fact that you know nothing about it...........and that you have dismissed it without ever seeing any of it........doesn't reflect upon me. It does say a LOT about you, however. Like a lot of conservatives, you dismiss real facts and science, in favor of your alternative/fake facts, whenever you cannot rebut the real stuff. That's what's happening here.
 
"Guys"? Why do you keep saying white "guys"? The two eye witnesses who have gone on the record were white women, but apparently that's not good enough for you? We also know from the videos and the statements of the two "white women" that multiple white men expressed outrage and said things like "I do that (sit without buying) all the time". Some of that can be heard in the videos, in fact. So we know that white people were sitting in that Starbucks at that time without buying something because multiple witnesses stated as much. And if you've ever spent time in a coffee shop (Starbucks or other) you'd know that "sittin' without buyin'" is a regular, daily happening. It's part of coffee shop culture. But let's not be coy here. This has nothing to do with the facts for you. You're just interested in plausible deniability so that you can continue whining.

Wrong. That is NOT company policy, as the CEO has noted. At best, that was a store policy established by the manager, who obviously did so without permission from corporate. But I realize that most of your argument is predicated upon this LIE (about company policy) being accepted as a "fact", so I get why you continue to repeat it.

:roll: Your opinions are NOT "facts", just because you feel them to be. That's not how things work in the fact-based community. What is it with some of you, that you seemingly ALWAYS get your personal opinions and feelings confused with objective facts? Geez, man. Everything you stated, above, is pure conjecture.......pure emotion-base opinion....and nothing else. The company removed her from her position at that store because of her poor judgment and for misrepresenting company policy. They made no claim of intentional personal bias on her part, but they do admit that the incident had all the markings of it.

Some of you guys have truly AWESOME abilities make up fake-facts (which by pure coincidence, of course, always happen to reaffirm you pre-existing biases).....and then repeat them as if they are accepted truths. I'm not an ideologue, so I just can't lower myself to that kind of standard for debate/discussion. You should all do some personal research on implicit bias. You really should.

Hearsay being told to reporters is not "testimony" or "on record". It is simply hearsay. You said "white guys" earlier in what I quoted. Hearsay is not good enough.

I've posted on this thread where it was in fact Starbucks policy.

Tell that to this pregnant lady a few years ago who refused use of the restroom in a Starbucks in a different state, Arizona

https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/a30523/starbucks-bathroom-policy-102414/

I stated that their policy was that each store got to make their own policy on this, not that they had to allow anyone to use their restrooms.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Starbucks-deal-with-homeless-people

"I find this isn't policy: technically my manager is allowed to make snap judgement calls to kick people who haven't purchased anything out, according to my DM and SM,"

This is confirmed by the fact that some stores have placed locks on their doors, which would seem unnecessary if they were simply going to allow everyone to use the restroom don't you think? And other stores have put the code to their doors on their receipts, meaning that's how you get it, buy something.

https://kcbsradio.radio.com/blogs/holly-quan/starbucks-policy-non-paying-customers-could-fuel-trouble

"According to The Journal some Starbucks employees left it up to their managers to decide how long to let customers who weren't buying anything linger."
 
The funny part is that I haven't posted any of the studies, yet you've already determined they "aren't worth crap" simply because you were informed that the results conflict your fact-free, emotional, right wing brainwashing.


Please try to focus. No one has ever claimed that all 60 million Trump voters were driven by racial resentment. What has been noted is that multiple peer-reviewed academic studies have proven that racial resentment was the #1 (among many) factors that was predictive of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 election. That is a FACT, Period. Now try to focus on that incontrovertible, scientifically documented FACT without shifting the subject to one of your may white entitlement/grievance issues, if you can.


We can start with your very first baseless claims:
1) that if 2 white guys had been arrested in a store...(presumably by a black manager, for not purchasing anything?)...no one would say anything.
2) that police blotters in cities validate/prove your argument

I (and others) asked you, way back then, to provide evidence to back up those early claims. You, of course, ran from those questions/challenges because you knew you had just made that stuff up based upon your own feelings at the time. Heck, I directly asked you how many police blotters you've recently reviewed, remember? You, of course, ran away from that question as well.

So we can start there. Address those early questions/challenges satisfactorily, or just admit that you were FOS at the time, ok? And, at the very least, stop whining when people tell you the politically incorrect truth about yourself.



Don't start weaseling now, "Mr. Truth". You claimed them to be facts, not opinions. And when asked to present evidence to back them up, you couldn't do it. Throughout this thread, you have misrepresented your personal OPINIONS as the acknowledge facts of this case. I (and others) have been correcting you.



Opinions that cannot be supported with facts are worthless drivel. That's what you've offered in this thread....worthless drivel based upon a privileged worldview. Barely a single documented, verifiable fact to back up your opinions. So as usual, your grasp of my perspective seems to be distorted.


That's a question for Starbucks' CEO. Most culturally informed people understand that this incident reeks of (at the very least) some implicit racial bias from the store manager. Obviously, the Starbucks' CEO agrees. That's why all of the faux-outrage from the usual white grievance/victimhood suspects that followed was so ridiculous.


Questions like this make it clear that a lot of people on your side of this issue simply do not really understand what racism is. The reports are that the manager was a white female....so.......NO, it would not be no claims of racism or implicit racial bias in the treatment of two white men asked to leave for not purchasing a product. Does that confuse you?


#1 above is an opinion and I made no mention of the race of the manager. It makes no difference. Two white guys getting asked to leave would NEVER have been a national story. #2 Just do some Google searches. If you can't find some stories of white people arrested in restaurants and other places for trespassing or refusing to leave then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, there would have been no controversy had the manager been black OR if the patrons had been white OR if both were true. You know that, too. That's an opinion just so you can keep this straight but one based on simple observation of what shows up as national controversies routinely.

You also seem not to know the difference between opinions and facts. Opinions by their nature are speculations, however much evidence has been used to form them. If I say that the sun will definitely come up tomorrow, that's an opinion, one based on the fact that it comes up every day. If I say that it failed to come up last Friday, then I'm required to prove it. That's a difference you seem incapable of figuring out. If I say that this would not have been a controversy with white patrons, how does one prove it? It's an opinion about that which did not happen but could have happened. Therefore, it's not subject to proof, except to the extent that past similar instances offer clues to the present.
 
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That's not research. It's an opinion piece. You don't understand the difference. All you know is that ANYTHING that reinforces your existing biases and feelings.........is "fact" and everything that does not is the work of "liberal academia" and "self appointed liberal elites", etc. I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but there is a body of published RESEARCH out there showing the impact of racial resentment on support for Trump. And the fact that you know nothing about it...........and that you have dismissed it without ever seeing any of it........doesn't reflect upon me. It does say a LOT about you, however. Like a lot of conservatives, you dismiss real facts and science, in favor of your alternative/fake facts, whenever you cannot rebut the real stuff. That's what's happening here.

Really? So, an article based on close study and interviews of Trump voters is no good but your "scientific" research is the last word. Sorry, but you only refer to these "studies" because they reinforce YOUR biases. Can you disprove any of the conclusions reached in the article or show that they were reached unreasonably? Of course not.
 
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Maybe people like you are in denial, and proud of it.

There's a lot of that going on within the white victimhood movement.

I'm black, first of all and secondly how am I deluded?
 
Hearsay being told to reporters is not "testimony" or "on record". It is simply hearsay. You said "white guys" earlier in what I quoted. Hearsay is not good enough.
I'mnot sure what you're talking about here, but first person/eye witness accounts of people in the store at the time (via the phone videos) as well as those reported by news organizations are not "hearsay". In fact, they are considered the antithesis of "hearsay". Perhaps you should look up the definition of the word "hearsay". I'm afraid the only "hearsay" we've seen in this particular case have come from your side. For example, we keep hearing that the manager was fired, when the FACT is that she was only removed from that store. And I could go on and on with the "hearsay" arguments, but almost all of it has come from your side of this argument, not mine.

I've posted on this thread where it was in fact Starbucks policy.
Well, if you did, then you were wrong. It is NOT a Starbucks policy. This was an individual store policy, and the CEO of Starbucks confirmed that the manager wasn't even correctly following her own store policy calling the police.

"What happened, the way that incident escalated, and the outcome was nothing short of reprehensible. In certain circumstances, local practices are implemented. With 28,000 stores around the world, in certain places, local policies exist. In this particular case, the local practice of asking someone who is not a customer to leave the store...followed by a call to the police. Certainly there are some situations where the call to police is justified--situations where there's violence or threats or disruption--in this case none of that existed. These two gentlemen did not deserve what happened. I am going to do everything I can to ensure this is fixed and never happens again. Whether than means changes to policies and practices...additional store manager training, including training around unconscious bias....and we will address this. There has been some calls for us to take action on the store manager. I believe that is misplaced...as CEO....I own it. This is a management issue and I am accountable to ensure that we address policies, practices and training that lead to this outcome."
https://www.facebook.com/Starbucks/videos/10156348146748057/

Tell that to this pregnant lady a few years ago who refused use of the restroom in a Starbucks in a different state, Arizona
https://www.esquire.com/food-drink/drinks/a30523/starbucks-bathroom-policy-102414/
??? Tell what, exactly, to the pregnant lady? She wasn't arrested. The police were not called on her (or her husband) even after they created a (very justifiable) disturbance in that store (unlike the 2 black men who simply sat down and continued waiting for their business client to arrive). So....tell her what, exactly? And btw, let's also note that her scenario ALSO went viral, leading to another formal apology from Starbucks...which only further discredits the entire "This would never be reported by the 'liberal media' if it happened to a white person" argument that you guys have been pushing in this thread.


I stated that their policy was that each store got to make their own policy on this, not that they had to allow anyone to use their restrooms.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-Starbucks-deal-with-homeless-people
You aren't the only person to state that it was a local store policy. I've been saying that from the beginning...as have others. The bathroom policy is not even the main issue in the philly store case. The problem there was JUDGMENT. As the CEO has made clear, the issue is JUDGMENT about granting bathroom access and/or calling the police on people in stores. Again, if you've ever been in a coffee shop....ANYWHERE....you should understand that almost everyone is guilty of "not purchasing while sitting". It's part of the culture. So then the issue becomes one of judgment...and that's where issues like implicit bias become so relevant. And that's why the comments of eye witnesses in the store that day (who said they 2 hadn't done anything wrong....and that they too, had been "sitting without purchasing", etc.) are so relevant.
 
#1 above is an opinion and I made no mention of the race of the manager. It makes no difference. Two white guys getting asked to leave would NEVER have been a national story.
You're right, it was an opinion NOT a "fact", as you originally claimed. And of course the race of the manager matters. The issue isn't the bathroom policy. It's the knee-jerk decision to call the police on 2 people who had done nothing wrong. The store policy was "no purchase, no restroom".....NOT "no purchase, leave or be arrested". Do you honestly....seriously NOT get that?

#2 Just do some Google searches. If you can't find some stories of white people arrested...for trespassing or refusing to leave then I don't know what to tell you.
Well, here's what I would tell you. I don't need to google anything. The question to you is a simply one: How many police blotters have you reviewed? Your argument was predicated upon a "fact" about police blotters. If the answer to my questions is "zero" (as it obviously is)....then your "fact" about the content of police blotters in cities was a total fabrication. As I've been saying, you have a tendency to MAKE UP your "facts" based upon nothing more than your own strongly-held personal opinions and feelings. And your "big city police blotter" fake-fact is a good example of that. And you know it. So that's what I would tell you.

there would have been no controversy had the manager been black OR if the patrons had been white OR if both were true...That's an opinion but one based on simple observation.
:roll: Once again, the only "fact" here is that this is your strongly-held personal opinion. The story here is one of racial bias (either implicit or explicit), and the record of events backs that up. Your personal assessment appears to be "the liberal media" highlights racism against black people, but ignores stories of mistreatment of white people. That's a perspective that is not atypical of a lot of white conservatives who don't really understand what racism is, because they don't experience it.

Opinions by their nature are speculations, however much evidence has been used to form them.
Not necessarily. Some opinions are well-grounded in objective data and provable facts....and others are little more than emotion-based burps reflecting personal biases. You haven't provided ANY evidence in this thread. As you have demonstrated with your "police blotter" argument (among others), some people have opinions that are emotional and circumstantial.

If I say that the sun will definitely come up tomorrow, that's an opinion, one based on the fact that it comes up every day. If I say that it failed to come up last Friday, then I'm required to prove it. That's a difference you seem incapable of figuring out.
Nope. You're still confused. On one hand, there is a body of objective, verifiable, reproducible science that justifies saying that the "sun will come up tomorrow". That's an example of what we call "knowledge". On the other hand (i.e. in your case), there was/is no such body of objective, verifiable, reproducible information behind any of the claims you made earlier in this thread. You have have a PERSONAL view that this was not a example of racial bias....and that this would never have been a news story if 2 white guys had been arrested under the same circumstances....etc.etc.. You can't prove ANY of the components of your original arguments. None. And THAT, my friend, is the "difference that you seem incapable of figuring out".

If I say that this would not have been a controversy with white patrons, how does one prove it? It's an opinion about that which did not happen but could have happened. Therefore, it's not subject to proof, except to the extent that past similar instances offer clues to the present.
Now we've come full circle in this discussion. Because, ANYTHING you assert as a "fact" is subject to proof. As I said many days ago, you're got this all backwards. It's not incumbent upon others to accept your unprovable arguments as "facts" (as you have insisted). It's YOUR obligation to either PROVE your "facts", or STOP using them as such in a debate of ideas. If you cannot back up your "facts", your arguments have little merit....especially when contrasted with real facts on the other side. Fact is, we see these kinds incidents happening all the time to black and brown people in our society. So to dismiss them on the basis of a set of BELIEFS in a conspiracy against white people who are (in your opinion) equally affected but "IGNORED BY THE LIBERAL MEDIA"....and are due to "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS" that favors minorities and which is akin to "TOTALITARIANISM"....etc.etc.........are just not a credible argument. It's a statement of an extreme personal ideology and denial of reality.
 
You're right, it was an opinion NOT a "fact", as you originally claimed. And of course the race of the manager matters. The issue isn't the bathroom policy. It's the knee-jerk decision to call the police on 2 people who had done nothing wrong. The store policy was "no purchase, no restroom".....NOT "no purchase, leave or be arrested". Do you honestly....seriously NOT get that?


I never said that black people haven't faced and don't still face discrimination. They do but the problem is that, in any case such as this, the immediate presumption is that racial bias, profiling or discrimination has taken place. That is where I have a problem. The conclusion is reached a priori before we've even examined the facts. In this case, we have claims from other patrons and profuse apologies from Starbucks, the police and who knows who else and have used that to castigate the manager as racially motivated when she simply could have thought she was doing the proper thing from a policy standpoint. I can't read her mind like many others appear to.

Secondly, I have looked through police blotters but they are so swamped with crimes that weeding out what you want is very time consuming. It's much easier to find individual stories. The bigger point, though, is that, contrary to what somebody else claimed in here, white people get arrested all the time for trespassing, etc. It's silly to suggest otherwise in a nation of 300 million people and it's equally silly to suggest that none of those cases are abuses of power. We simply don't hear about them because they can't be used to stoke the racial divide.

I also never once in this thread talked about any conspiracy against white people. I've talked of the co-opting of American business to where they must walk on eggshells for fear of being called racists, even if that is entirely untrue. That is a form of coercion and blackmail in many instances but one we've come to view as somehow good because its proponents present themselves as the possessors of superior knowledge and virtue. So, by definition, anyone questioning their narrative must be unknowledgable and lacking in virtue. And it doesn't just apply to business situations. We've seen it time and again, in the Duke lacrosse case, in Ferguson, in the Trayvon Martin case, in mass shooting cases and many others. If you question the liberal preferred interpretation of events, why then you're just a bad person. People are sick to death of it.
 
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