Two black men arrested at Philly Starbucks for trespassing

[JC Callender]

Not being a Starbucks guy, I'm a little ignorant of the Starbucks etiquette, in fact I find the whole thing a bit intimidating, and I can never figure out how to order an extra large without being looked down on by a snobby brewista for not saying "Venti"...hehe...so I took this story at face value and initially thought "No, that's not right, you shouldn't be able to loiter in a place of business, no matter who you are".

But, in reading the comment from your linked article, which states ""All the other white ppl are wondering why it’s never happened to us when we do the same thing.", I'm left thinking that if waiting around for friends is something that happens, and if there is a gap between how white people are treated and black people are treated in this location, then they should be on the hook for explaining why, or apologizing, which Starbucks has done.

Can any hardcore Starbucks fans comment on how the store they frequent handles this kind of scenario, where people are waiting for others to join them?

I find it surprising that the eyewitnesses who wondered why it never happened to them also don't make purchases. Who does make purchases? And wouldn't the fact that all of these people aren't making purchases be a concern of yours if you ran that Starbucks? These 2 black men could've been the first ones they asked to leave, but so what, why does that have to be racist? Let's say the manager said "We're not making a profit, we need to tell the next folks who come in and don't order anything to leave" and next thing you know two black guys, or two Mexicans, or two gay people, or two Indians, etc....walk in, do you say, hold on until a couple of white guys come in?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

They were waiting for a friend to arrive who got there while they were being handcuffed, according to numerous witnesses at the store.

In that case they might have a somewhat stronger case. However raising their chance of success from 0.01% to 1% isn't really all that much of an actual improvement.

When I go into my local Starbucks there are tables full of people using Wi-Fi and not drinking coffee.

Different stores, different store policies.

 

[JC Callender]

Starbucks offers free WiFi. I have personally witnessed people sitting for hours without making a purchase to use the service. Never seen an Oklahoma Starbucks (or McDonalds) refuse the bathroom or press loitering charges. The Lee Blvd McDonalds allows some very rough people to hang out near the back by the bathrooms. The Starbucks on Quanah Parker Trailway allows people to sit without purchase.

The crap about the Mayor's office and home is BS. No one wanted to use the Starbuck's office or the manager's home. Please try to stay away from absurd arguments.... eace

Starbucks is there to make money, believe it or not. Maybe you or the Mayor could open up an establishment for people to loiter and do business for free instead of pointing your accusatory finger at Starbucks? Oh...wait, how would you fund it?

 

[Barnacle]

So ... where is the nation-wide Starbucks boycott?

Because everybody here knows very well, had it been a Chick-fil-A the boycott would be already in full swing.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

An unrelated comment regarding Starbucks and their no apologies promotion of coffee-like drinks to promote world fatassedness.

I drink coffee black. I realize now that in Starbucks that may be dangerous. Imagine the fear of being overheard saying black in a Starbucks. Your simple use of that word alone could trigger a SWAT team with instant tasing and body cavity searches of black patrons quietly sitting at tables like everyone else.

As for me, the only people who should be arrested in Starbucks are those people who waddle in line to order a large mocha loca with extra whipped cream and a cherry. I'm serious! Starbucks really isn't about coffee. It's about unique ways of consuming diabetic amounts of sugar.

I have seen relatively few people who just get coffee or coffee and cream. In fact, if you are in somewhat of a hurry in the morning and you just want coffee, don't even think about Starbucks. There will be a massive line of people ordering and waiting for exotic drinks involving buckets of flavored syrup, flavored cream, whipped cream, fruit, powdered nuts, special kinds of milk, sprinkles and maybe an ounce of coffee - usually decaf. Wait behind five of those people when you want to order a large black coffee and see how long it takes.

Once a friend at work heard me say I had a meeting at Starbucks. She asked me if I would please bring her a coffee after my meeting. She asked me to bring her a medium (I always get those coffee sizes wrong too. Vidi, veni, vici, I get 'em confused) decaf coffee with one low fat dairy creamer packet, sugar free hazelnut syrup and two packets of Sweet & Low.

"Why don't I bring you back a medium cup of hot water? What would be the difference?"

See? America is all too willing to put up with all that bull**** in a "coffeeshop", but let two black people sit and wait on a friend? No way, America will drop a dime on those two in a hot minute. :2no4:

My tech savvy wife pre-orders and pays with her Starbucks app, including whether to pickup via drive-thru or inside. We arrive to a ready order. She also insists I order on "Special Days" .... either free or half-price due to accumulated Reward Points. She checks her Smart Phone throughout the day to see if I complied with her instructions. She also prefers receipt free Apple-Pay where she waves her phone at a device instead of using cash or a card.

 

[OlNate]

You can't be wrong all the time.

lol...I'm just gonna ignore that, and enjoy this for a moment... You'll say something to piss me off tomorrow for sure, and order will be restored to the universe...

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Don't be. The Small-Medium-Large system they have is stupid. Call it what it is. Embarrass them.

I prefer to order "Your second largest, extra strength, coffee with chocolate and heated milk, topped with whipped cream drink." and then look at them as if they are from another planet when they say "You mean you want a Vente Mocha with an extra shot.".

It drives them crazy when I respond, "No, I want your second largest, extra strength, coffee with chocolate and heated milk, topped with whipped cream drink.".

 

[Middle_Ground]

Not being a Starbucks guy, I'm a little ignorant of the Starbucks etiquette, in fact I find the whole thing a bit intimidating, and I can never figure out how to order an extra large without being looked down on by a snobby brewista for not saying "Venti"...hehe...so I took this story at face value and initially thought "No, that's not right, you shouldn't be able to loiter in a place of business, no matter who you are".

But, in reading the comment from your linked article, which states ""All the other white ppl are wondering why it’s never happened to us when we do the same thing.", I'm left thinking that if waiting around for friends is something that happens, and if there is a gap between how white people are treated and black people are treated in this location, then they should be on the hook for explaining why, or apologizing, which Starbucks has done.

Can any hardcore Starbucks fans comment on how the store they frequent handles this kind of scenario, where people are waiting for others to join them?

As someone that has to stop in there over the years in different cities to use there wi-fi. I have never purchased there stuff. Once a file was taking a long time to download I bougth a tea.
I have never been asked to leave.
Its a different kind of place the unwritten rule is it's a place to have meetings etc and if you want to buy something you can but it's not necessary.
This whole story is weird.

 

[ludin]

Finally the full story.

Starbucks apologizes after employee calls Philadelphia police on black men waiting at a table | Law and order | stltoday.com

This store has a no bathroom policy for non-paying patrons.

He was asked to leave as they had not bought anything and was asking to use the restroom.
Nothing racists about it which is what I thought.

 

[Nilly]

The Starbucks in Philadelphia is the headquarters for flaming racism? Yeah, I doubt that.

Liberal hipsterville is just as susceptible to systematic racism as anywhere else. Systemic racism is not flaming, it's subtle. That's the point.

 

[Nilly]

I prefer to order "Your second largest, extra strength, coffee with chocolate and heated milk, topped with whipped cream drink." and then look at them as if they are from another planet when they say "You mean you want a Vente Mocha with an extra shot.".

It drives them crazy when I respond, "No, I want your second largest, extra strength, coffee with chocolate and heated milk, topped with whipped cream drink.".

Man you must feel so smugly clever when you do that. To get one over the 20 year old barista trying to make some money to cover student loans between classes. What a rush.

 

[ecofarm]

My tech savvy wife pre-orders and pays with her Starbucks app, including whether to pickup via drive-thru or inside. We arrive to a ready order. She also insists I order on "Special Days" .... either free or half-price due to accumulated Reward Points. She checks her Smart Phone throughout the day to see if I complied with her instructions. She also prefers receipt free Apple-Pay where she waves her phone at a device instead of using cash or a card.

Do they take bathroom reservations?

 

[Risky Thicket]

My tech savvy wife pre-orders and pays with her Starbucks app, including whether to pickup via drive-thru or inside. We arrive to a ready order. She also insists I order on "Special Days" .... either free or half-price due to accumulated Reward Points. She checks her Smart Phone throughout the day to see if I complied with her instructions. She also prefers receipt free Apple-Pay where she waves her phone at a device instead of using cash or a card.

You have a smart wife. Her solution may be the best way.

 

[danarhea]

It looks like two black men wanted to use the restroom at Starbucks and were denied because they weren't purchasing anything. They then sat down and were asked to leave since they weren't making a purchase and they refused. The police were called and asked the men to leave and they again refused, so the police arrested them. Now there's a public outcry of racism, but what if that particular Starbucks has a problem with people loitering or conducting business without making purchases and they're taking up valuable space that could be used for paying customers, wouldn't that be a problem? Wouldn't if be fair to expect someone to purchase something when using their establishment?

Philly's mayor, defending the two black men, says that Starbucks is "not just a place to buy a cup of coffee, but a place to meet up with friends or family members, or to get some work done", but is it really up to the mayor to assume that Starbucks should provide an office or hang out place free of charge or purchases? Maybe the mayors office and home could be a place for the public to meet up with friends and get some work done? And is it really impossible to see that two white guys could be asked to leave as well under the same circumstances?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...-on-controversial-arrest-of-2-black-men-in-ph

What do you think?

My answer is going to be a bit nuanced. Did Starbucks allow white people to use the restroom without buying anything? This is the only argument that has a chance to prevail in this lawsuit, and if Starbucks applied the same standard to whites as they did to blacks, then this lawsuit will go down in flames. However, I see no evidence pertaining to this point, one way or the other. Will wait and see what comes out in the lawsuit.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

You're absolutely correct! There is no such right! BUT when white person people are granted that privilege over and over again whilst black people are not, there is a systemic inequality, even if it concerns privileges rather than rights.

Hence that little term you may have heard once or twice over the years 'white privilege'.

Waaaah waaah waah.

Once or twice?

You mean more like a million plus times? And so rendered meaningless, worth less and less with every single use until its now totally worthless. Keep the chip on your shoulder, keep over using it, keep dividing us into us and them, them them whites.

As a white guy from a lower middle class family I had the privilege of no special preference in obtaining scholarships, no special preference in admissions either. If of equal qualifications no special preference in hiring nor promotion...that is systematic and been in place my entire adult life.

I also dont have a WET, a white entertainment television network, a white beauty pageant, a national association for the advancement of white people, a white caucus in congress, I certainly didnt get my white privilige on sports teams from youth on up.

But do I waste my, and others, time whining, complaining about all these discriminatory practices against my race and gender? No, I bring it up here only because of all the wilted offended delicate yet grotesque litlle flowers here spitting out their virtue rage like it was only their privilege.

We all, no matter our race, sensible folk alike had to, at some point, grow weary of all those spouting spiteful and discriminatory advantage over other individuals, those who have committed no wrongs, in the name of fairness.

That tipping point was last years news. Overcome your prejudice, stop jumping to the indoctrinated defaults ( which are racist in themselves ), maybe become a Maxwell on the old TV show, Get Smart.

 

[VanceMack]

Waaaah waaah waah.

Once or twice?

You mean more like a million plus times? And so rendered meaningless, worth less and less with every single use until its now totally worthless. Keep the chip on your shoulder, keep over using it, keep dividing us into us and them, them them whites.

As a white guy from a lower middle class family I had the privilege of no special preference in obtaining scholarships, no special preference in admissions either. If of equal qualifications no special preference in hiring nor promotion...that is systematic and been in place my entire adult life.

I also dont have a WET, a white entertainment television network, a white beauty pageant, a national association for the advancement of white people, a white caucus in congress, I certainly didnt get my white privilige on sports teams from youth on up.

But do I waste my, and others, time whining, complaining about all these discriminatory practices against my race and gender? No, I bring it up here only because of all the wilted offended delicate yet grotesque litlle flowers here spitting out their virtue rage like it was only their privilege.

We all, no matter our race, sensible folk alike had to, at some point, grow weary of all those spouting spiteful and discriminatory advantage over other individuals, those who have committed no wrongs, in the name of fairness.

That tipping point was last years news. Overcome your prejudice, stop jumping to the indoctrinated defaults ( which are racist in themselves ), maybe become a Maxwell on the old TV show, Get Smart.

Couldnt you look at the facts involving THIS ONE CASE and see that maybe just maybe it doesnt involve your race or whiteness or privilege but it does involve an action most likely taken based on ONE factor...the race of the individuals involved?

 

[Mason66]

Don't be. The Small-Medium-Large system they have is stupid. Call it what it is. Embarrass them.

I think it would work like this.

You order a medium. They say it is called a whatever here (I don't know the words for them) and you reply, Did you not know what I meant?

 

[VanceMack]

So ... where is the nation-wide Starbucks boycott?

Because everybody here knows very well, had it been a Chick-fil-A the boycott would be already in full swing.

Way ahead of you. I began boycotting Starbucks about 5 years ago. There coffee is unspectacular, their prices are ridiculous, their environment isnt even all that comfortable. Luckily we have a few independent coffee shops out here that put Starbucks to shame. The only people I know that go to Starbucks any more are people that buy their ridiculously overpriced frozen drinks. (thats the people I know...but there are plenty of people that still go there).

 

[Mason66]

A couple of odd things in the story:

1) They called 911 for this? Really?
2) The police didn't just tell the people to purchase something or leave? Went straight to arrest?

Something doesn't add up here. There's got to be more to the story.

It says in the OP the police asked the men to leave and they refused.

The police had no choice at that time.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Do they take bathroom reservations?

They might. I make frequent bathroom trips. Me being a 60+ year old Gurly-Man and Neanderthal-type, I don't bother to learn the rules. No matter the Gender Sign by the door, I go in the first available bathroom. So far, no one has bothered me about it.

 

[JC Callender]

My answer is going to be a bit nuanced. Did Starbucks allow white people to use the restroom without buying anything? This is the only argument that has a chance to prevail in this lawsuit, and if Starbucks applied the same standard to whites as they did to blacks, then this lawsuit will go down in flames. However, I see no evidence pertaining to this point, one way or the other. Will wait and see what comes out in the lawsuit.

The black police chief of Philly seemed to find nothing wrong with it and went on to say that one of his sergeants was denied bathroom use at Starbucks as well on a different occasion, so he finds them to be consistent.

 

[Slingshot Bob]

So ... where is the nation-wide Starbucks boycott?

Because everybody here knows very well, had it been a Chick-fil-A the boycott would be already in full swing.

I am surprised it has not already happened over being closed on Sunday!

 

[Slingshot Bob]

They might. I make frequent bathroom trips. Me being a 60+ year old Gurly-Man and Neanderthal-type, I don't bother to learn the rules. No matter the Gender Sign by the door, I go in the first available bathroom. So far, no one has bothered me about it.

I have done that, but only in single occupancy rooms. I have a term for it "deuce and dash" Entering a business for the sole purpose of dropping a deuce!

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Wrong about what?

You mean I was not asked to leave restaurants when waiting for the rest of party to show up?

or am I wrong about believing that I am white?


I said nothing about privilige or being annoyed. I was quite happy to wait for my companions

From what I have observed over the past 5 years of interaction, practically everything.

I have no credible source of verification of that anecdote.

Yes.

Ahh, so you didnt go in an complain that they were discriminating in your white favor? :shock: oh the horror :roll:

 

[OlNate]

Starbucks specifically no, although I've never actually been to a Starbucks. Yes I've been asked to purchase or leave from a coffee shop before.

Ok, I get that some establishments have these policies, and I support them... The only reason I'm asking about Starbucks specifically is to establish whether the policy is applied evenly. If so, then more power to them. If not, it's a problem.