Trumpo Top Bracket -33%- starts at $112,500

[Visbek]

Then why did Clinton sign off on it and why didn't Obama fix it?

lol

Bill Clinton was a centrist, who deliberately tacked to the center on many issues, including free trade. In case you missed it, he also severely curtailed welfare, ran a surplus, supported the death penalty, put more cops on the streets, stiffened lots of criminal penalties....

Contrary to conservative caricature, Obama was also a centrist and pro-market in many respects. Manufacturing employment even bounced back during his term. He also had a long-standing goal of pivoting to Asia, and the TPP was specifically written to keep China's influence in check. (Ironically, Trump bowing out of the TPP only makes China stronger.)

Reagan supported free trade. Bush 41 supported free trade; in fact, Bush 41 negotiated and signed NAFTA. Gingrich supported NAFTA, and called his effort to pass it the "Clinton-Gingrich Pro-American Growth Team.” More Republicans than Democrats voted for NAFTA. Bush 43 supported free trade. Numerous Republicans supported the TPP, until this summer. If I had to list every Republican elected official who supported (and still support) free trade, I'd be here all night.


So. Let's review free trade versus protectionism, shall we?

Free trade: Minimal government involvement or interference. Faith in the basic idea that trade is advantageous to all parties. Faith in markets to lower prices and increase efficiency. Treats labor like another market. Lowers costs for producers and consumers. Favors multinational corporations. Use of international lawsuits to settle disputes.

Protectionism: Government interfering on behalf of locals. Government picks winners. Government regulates trade. Distrust in the fundamental economic idea that trade benefits all parties. Claims to protect labor. Increases costs for producers and consumers. Often criticized for causing environmental harm. Often anti-corporate.

Which of these two sounds like a conservative idea?

Are you really that oblivious to the left-wing anti-globalization movement?


Oh, I almost forgot. Let's compare some effects, shall we?

Scenario 1: Joe costs his employer $7.25/hour. The government takes actions that increases the cost of labor for the employer to $15/hour.

Scenario 2: Jose is paid $3.50/hour. The government takes actions that increases the cost of labor to $19/hour.

The former is the effect of a minimum wage law. The latter is the effect of a protectionist law. Do either of these sound like conservative, laissez-faire mindset?


I hate to break this to you, but I'm not the one with the closed mind here. You are obviously trying to jam the square peg of protectionism into the round hole of conservatism. Bill Clinton and Obama were not raging Marxist revolutionaries, their political and economic views were much more complex, and do not fit well into your cartoonish deliberate mischaracterization of their views.

 

[austrianecon]

Labor costs, yes. Taxes, no. The average effective corporate tax rate in this country is around 12%. Not the 35% Conservatives are so fond of screeching. Very few, if any, businesses actually pay 35% because of the various tax breaks, tax credits, etc. that the government provides. The reasons these jobs go is because of labor costs and greed. Taxes have very little, if anything, to do with it.

That's just the Federal rate.. you have State and Local rates as well.

 

[Visbek]

Almost forgot two other miscellaneous points.

1) A primary mechanism of protectionism is the imposition of border taxes. When was the last time you heard a conservative advocate for increasing taxes?

2) Another victim of protectionism? Tourism. There are some indications that Trump's travel executive order has already dinged the tourist industry, perhaps as much as 10% in the short run. Foreigners are far less likely to travel to the US if there is a trade war.

The effects on Americans is harder to predict. As noted, the dollar will probably strengthen, which may entice Americans to travel abroad. However, Americans might also stay at home, which could offset some of the tourism losses. Unless they really stay home, due to a possible hike in gas prices or other inflationary effects.

 

[Kushinator]

I don't care about your cherry picked biased liberal talking points. Nice dodge though.

Save the weak responses for those patient enough to entertain such ridiculousness.

 

[austrianecon]

Columbus Ohio is really a poor example to be using if you want to talk about Rust Belt transformation. It never had a large industrial base (such as other Rust Belt cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.) and was always more defined by its status as the capitol of Ohio.

Columbus manufacturing employment was 25% of total employment in 1969.. which fell in line with every Rust Belt city. Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh all have MAJOR Universities within the city or within a 20 miles. Detroit has UofM, Cleveland has Case Western, and Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon, Pitt and Duquesne. Pittsburgh and Philly were defacto split Capitol of PA. Harrisburg is so small that the State money actually went to Philly and Pittsburgh.

Ironically, Pittsburgh and Columbus adopted the same ideas.

 

[austrianecon]

Almost forgot two other miscellaneous points.

1) A primary mechanism of protectionism is the imposition of border taxes. When was the last time you heard a conservative advocate for increasing taxes?

2) Another victim of protectionism? Tourism. There are some indications that Trump's travel executive order has already dinged the tourist industry, perhaps as much as 10% in the short run. Foreigners are far less likely to travel to the US if there is a trade war.

The effects on Americans is harder to predict. As noted, the dollar will probably strengthen, which may entice Americans to travel abroad. However, Americans might also stay at home, which could offset some of the tourism losses. Unless they really stay home, due to a possible hike in gas prices or other inflationary effects.

Well considering Trump isn't really a conservative.. that's a question you have to ask him and Bernie Sanders.

Trade wars = less tourism? Show me the numbers because I don't buy it. Tourism is based on if it's affordable based on currency. Traveling to Europe is more affordable today then it was say 5 years ago because the Euro is trading close to par of the Dollar. For Europeans because of their OWN **** ups.. it's become more expensive and it hurts places like Ft Myers, FL which is little Germany (Germany has a Consulate there).

 

[austrianecon]

There's only been one republican president since GHWB. I'm not sure that's the one defining statistic you want to run with.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

Well, 2 now. Same as Democrats. But I was making a point. Trump had better wins the G.W. Bush, that's all.

 

[Media_Truth]

everyone should pay the same rate-this prevents politicians from pandering to the many by promising tax hikes only on a few

Sure - tax the minimum wage earner the same percentage as I make on interest income. I'm fairly wealthy, with a fairly high income, and I'm against this - it's the most immoral proposal of all, to the current tax plan.

 

[TurtleDude]

Sure - tax the minimum wage earner the same percentage as I make on interest income. I'm fairly wealthy, with a fairly high income, and I'm against this - it's the most immoral proposal of all, to the current tax plan.

you fail to see what the end game is of progressive income tax

More and more promises made to the many to buy their votes, paid for by a smaller and smaller group of tax payers

making everyone pay the same for the same value is hardly immoral

 

[Media_Truth]

you fail to see what the end game is of progressive income tax

More and more promises made to the many to buy their votes, paid for by a smaller and smaller group of tax payers

making everyone pay the same for the same value is hardly immoral

I don't "fail to see" anything. How you equate "buying votes" to "progressive income tax" is irrelevant to the discussion of other deductions that the Trumpists take.

 

[RickJames3000]

Columbus manufacturing employment was 25% of total employment in 1969.. which fell in line with every Rust Belt city. Detroit, Cleveland and Pittsburgh all have MAJOR Universities within the city or within a 20 miles. Detroit has UofM, Cleveland has Case Western, and Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon, Pitt and Duquesne. Pittsburgh and Philly were defacto split Capitol of PA. Harrisburg is so small that the State money actually went to Philly and Pittsburgh.

Ironically, Pittsburgh and Columbus adopted the same ideas.

1. There is no such thing as a "de facto" capitol.

2. Pittsburgh and Columbus are radically different cities... from the built environment, to demographic patterns, to political development, to the physical layout, to their industrial histories... there are very few economists or historians inside the Rust Belt or in the Eastern part of the US that would consider them similar. Nobody who actually lives in the region itself would list Columbus among the major (or even secondary) Rust Belt Cities...and even general sources such as wikipedia will confirm that reality.

3. I don't know why you are bringing up universities. Every city of substantial size has universities and colleges.


How much time have you actually spent in Columbus, Pittsburgh or the Rust Belt itself?

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

1. There is no such thing as a "de facto" capitol.

2. Pittsburgh and Columbus are radically different cities... from the built environment, to demographic patterns, to political development, to the physical layout, to their industrial histories... there are very few economists or historians inside the Rust Belt or in the Eastern part of the US that would consider them similar. Nobody who actually lives in the region itself would list Columbus among the major (or even secondary) Rust Belt Cities...and even general sources such as wikipedia will confirm that reality.

3. I don't know why you are bringing up universities. Every city of substantial size has universities and colleges.


How much time have you actually spent in Columbus, Pittsburgh or the Rust Belt itself?

He lives in Columbus. But I agree with you, Columbus doesn't feel very rusty to me when I go there. It feels like a state capital to me, swimming in state capital money.

 

[Moderate Right]

Save the weak responses for those patient enough to entertain such ridiculousness.

Right back at you slick.

 

[Incisor]

That's your liberal talking point. Run up the white flag and say there is nothing we can do. That's why three blue states that were losing jobs voted for Trump and yet you guys would rather believe the Russians voted for Atrump.

Your solution is to just clap hard enough to will something into being (like Tinkerbelle). You are living in denial, not just of this but of many things. In fact, I'm going to start calling you Tinkerbelle.

 

[Incisor]

Because manufacturing startups would have it easier in this country than overseas due to the automation vs labor in other countries and that is exactly what has already started to happen.

So that isn't an answer to my question, or any questions. How would "start ups" have it easier in this country? Again, this feels like a "Tinkerbelle wishes it so it must be true" line of reasoning.

Of course some startups fail but banks aren't going to be making these megamillion dollar loans willy nilly to anyone that doesn't have a damn good business plan and model.

Tinkerbelle, look, banks aren't making loans now. This is a bit outdated (from 2013), but indicative of the trend. Those multimillion dollar loans are the ones banks are handing out willynilly to people like Trump. Whereas small and "start up" (aka "micro") businesses have seen their volume of loans decline:



Is any of this resonating with you?

 

[Incisor]

That's just the Federal rate.. you have State and Local rates as well.

Again, not the reason businesses leave. Those taxes are on profits, not revenues.

 

[Moderate Right]

Your solution is to just clap hard enough to will something into being (like Tinkerbelle). You are living in denial, not just of this but of many things. In fact, I'm going to start calling you Tinkerbelle.

No, my solution is to actually do something and not run up the white flag and not clap either.

 

[Moderate Right]

So that isn't an answer to my question, or any questions. How would "start ups" have it easier in this country? Again, this feels like a "Tinkerbelle wishes it so it must be true" line of reasoning.




Tinkerbelle, look, banks aren't making loans now. This is a bit outdated (from 2013), but indicative of the trend. Those multimillion dollar loans are the ones banks are handing out willynilly to people like Trump. Whereas small and "start up" (aka "micro") businesses have seen their volume of loans decline:

View attachment 67214317

Is any of this resonating with you?

Wrong. We're having manufacturing start ups now.

 

[Incisor]

No, my solution is to actually do something and not run up the white flag and not clap either.

But that "something" seems to be nothing more than empty rhetoric, so you may as well clap as hard as you can...it's going to have the same effect.

 

[Incisor]

Wrong. We're having manufacturing start ups now.

The point was that small and micro business lending has declined since the recession. Of course there are always going to be start-ups...right now, however, the rate at which those start ups get loans has been in decline.

 

[Moderate Right]

But that "something" seems to be nothing more than empty rhetoric.

We haven't had anyone to take the football until Trump was elected. Both Democrats and Republicans loved kicking the ball down the road, especially the Democrats.

 

[Moderate Right]

The point was that small and micro business lending has declined since the recession. Of course there are always going to be start-ups...right now, however, the rate at which those start ups get loans has been in decline.

As startup is a startup is a startup.

 

[Incisor]

We haven't had anyone to take the football until Trump was elected. Both Democrats and Republicans loved kicking the ball down the road, especially the Democrats.

So now you're just speaking in platitudes. You're jumping from general non-sequitur to general non-sequitur.

 

[Incisor]

As startup is a startup is a startup.

And since the start of the Great Recession, lending by banks to "start ups" has declined, while lending by banks to multi-million dollar businesses has increased. So your original claim from three posts ago...

Of course some startups fail but banks aren't going to be making these megamillion dollar loans willy nilly to anyone that doesn't have a damn good business plan and model.

...is uninformed.

 

[Moderate Right]

So now you're just speaking in platitudes. You're jumping from general non-sequitur to general non-sequitur.

I'm just stating the truth. Both parties were too busy passing national pizza days and let jobs leave. Trump doesn't give a **** about national pizza days and wants to bring jobs back to America. That's why Hillary lost. All she could do, like you, is say, "That's just the new economy".