Trump Tied Ukraine Aid to Inquiries He Sought, Bolton Book Says

[W_Heisenberg]

Again, you believe it to be unconstitutional. You are not the SC.

I am not the Supreme court, but I can read English, and use logic, and read legal books, and read cases/rulings, and read summaries of the law.

The Supreme Court will read and discuss the cases I referenced. You should read them too.

I believed that Obama's DACA was unconstitutional. And even Obama himself claimed it was beforehand, but it remains because it hasn't been presented to the court for a ruling. I've never argued here about it one way or the other because until the court rules on it, if it should ever see the case, it remains in effect. The same circumspection is required here for thoughtful people.

I agree the Courts are the venue to resolve certain Constitutional disputes.

I do not agree that I should remain silent on any particular legal or constitutional issue until the Supreme Court rules on it.

You can be quiet in the face of Trump's violations of the Constitution.

I am going to be speak up, do my duty as a citizen, and advocate the removal of Trump either via impeachment or at the ballot box. Trump is dangerous to the Republic.

That Trump is consistent would naturally be another way of looking at it.

I don't think it's a virtue to consistently violate the Constitution, but then again I'm not a fascist like Trump and some of his supporters.

Of course, that Schiff denied those potential witnesses the right of counsel

This isn't true.

The witnesses who appeared, even during those initial depositions, had their attorneys with them during the initial hearings:

See page 13 of the following deposition:

READ: Gordon Sondland's Testimony Transcript In Impeachment Inquiry : NPR

What this shows me is you have not read beyond the first few pages of any transcript from ANY of the depositions.

I think I've had enough internet for today...I'll respond to your other points later.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

When was the last time you believed anything Bolton said??

Stop talking to me. I am done talking to you. You are not an honest person.

 

[Tangmo]

I agree with you that the likelihood of Trump being removed from office is remote, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight.

I get it, but I think to put one foot in front of the other, and advancing the case as far as it can practically go, will have important, positive results regardless of the end result.

Yes, the strategic political environment is daunting, but victory begets victory.

The strategic political environment is taking shape definitively just as it's needed to manifest itself all along. It's a long and often agonizing small step by small step process that's never wandered off its unmistakable and inevitable path.

 

[Conservative]

Stop talking to me. I am done talking to you. You are not an honest person.

Don't blame you, you have nothing but a vendetta that shows your disdain for the President and the direction he is taking this country, back towards what our Founders created not the entitlement or massive central gov't that you obviously need. I would run too if the best you can do is offer 24/7 negatives on the President that is far from being fair and impartial.

 

[Conservative]

The strategic political environment is taking shape definitively just as it's needed to manifest itself all along. It's a long and often agonizing small step by small step process that's never wandered off its unmistakable and inevitable path.

When was the last time you believed anything Bolton Said??

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Don't blame you, you have nothing but a vendetta that shows your disdain for the President and the direction he is taking this country, back towards what our Founders created not the entitlement or massive central gov't that you obviously need. I would run too if the best you can do is offer 24/7 negatives on the President that is far from being fair and impartial.

There is no polite way to say this. I just don't want to communicate with you.

So, please, do me the favor of not replying to me directly, okay?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Another Republican senator says he’s open to a witness exchange.

Another Republican senator says he’s open to a witness exchange.

Add another name to the list of Republicans toying with calling witnesses at President Trump’s impeachment trial.

At a private luncheon of Republican senators on Monday, Senator Patrick J. Toomey of Pennsylvania, indicated to colleagues that he was open to calling witnesses if Republicans could work out an arrangement so that a witness like John R. Bolton was called in exchange for one seen as more beneficial to the president, according to Republicans familiar with his remarks not authorized to discuss them.

His remarks are another sign that Republicans are under increasing pressure after revelations that Mr. Bolton asserts in a forthcoming book that Mr. Trump told him he would not release nearly $400 million in military aid for Ukraine until the country had assisted with investigations into the Bidens and other Democrats.

 

[Tangmo]

When was the last time you believed anything Bolton Said??

I like that Bolton wants now for the USA to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign independent state and exchange ambassadors formally and permanently. Bolton's 'now' includes over a good number of years, not just on the spur of the moment. Presently I'd like to hear Bolton under oath testifying to the Senate about what he called a "drug deal" being promoted in the oval office to the great disadvantage of the national security and defense of the United States and the Constitution.

 

[TomFitz]

I like that Bolton wants now for the USA to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign independent state and exchange ambassadors formally and permanently. Bolton's 'now' includes over a good number of years, not just on the spur of the moment. Presently I'd like to hear Bolton under oath testifying to the Senate about what he called a "drug deal" being promoted in the oval office to the great disadvantage of the national security and defense of the United States and the Constitution.

I have never been a fan of John Bolton.

He was one of the loudest voices in the room for starting an unnecessary war in the wrong country in 2003, and went on to bluster and strut noisily and in effectively until North Korea got their bomb. He was reviled at the UN, and justifiably.

He is famous for being abusive to staff and associate, and for his considerable skill as an office politician (a fundamental skill in Trump world).

I have no faith in Bolton’s world view, which is almost as jingoistic as Trump’s Archie Bunker notions.

But Bolton is not a reckless fool. And he has never been known to be corrupt.

And, while I have never believed that Bolton was any kind of diplomat, I never thought he was corrupt in any way.

I think that he was almost certainly astounded by what he saw in the Trump White House. And I suspect he’s going to have a lot to say about the way Trump has played footsie with the Russians throughout his years in office.

 

[Conservative]

There is no polite way to say this. I just don't want to communicate with you.

So, please, do me the favor of not replying to me directly, okay?

Then use the ignore function because I am going to continue to show you as that partisan liberal hack that you are, totally clueless of the reality of what Trump is doing to this country, returning us to the greatest that our Founders created and removing the entitlement mentality that you obviously need to survive. Liberal hacks like you use your freedom of speech to demonize anyone that disagrees with you. the Ukraine is another opportunity for you to attack a person you really don't understand. I am half way through The United States of Trump and can tell you that you are clueless with regards to the man you hate so much for no reason other than he doesn't support your ideology and is doing whatever he can to destroy it before it destroys this country. you call him a liar and a crook, there isn't any issue you can point to that supports your claim as it impacts the American people. The results actually destroy you and show us exactly who you are

 

[Mongidig]

Ok. I have you down for hiding the evidence from the American people. Thanks

I'm glad that made your day.

 

[prometeus]

Then use the ignore function because I am going to continue to show you as that partisan liberal hack that you are, totally clueless of the reality of what Trump is doing to this country, returning us to the greatest that our Founders created and removing the entitlement mentality that you obviously need to survive. Liberal hacks like you use your freedom of speech to demonize anyone that disagrees with you. the Ukraine is another opportunity for you to attack a person you really don't understand. I am half way through The United States of Trump and can tell you that you are clueless with regards to the man you hate so much for no reason other than he doesn't support your ideology and is doing whatever he can to destroy it before it destroys this country. you call him a liar and a crook, there isn't any issue you can point to that supports your claim as it impacts the American people. The results actually destroy you and show us exactly who you are

Oh the ****ing irony :lamo:lamo:lamo

 

[Conservative]

I like that Bolton wants now for the USA to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign independent state and exchange ambassadors formally and permanently. Bolton's 'now' includes over a good number of years, not just on the spur of the moment. Presently I'd like to hear Bolton under oath testifying to the Senate about what he called a "drug deal" being promoted in the oval office to the great disadvantage of the national security and defense of the United States and the Constitution.

John Bolton served his country but I have to question his timing especially after being fired from his last position. Tell me exactly why this is even an issue for you and if it would be an issue were it not for Trump? I don't give a damn about Ukraine but I do care about national security and the economy both of which Trump has improved greatly. You want him out of office purely because of hatred not because of his results and what he is doing. That to me is disgusting and playing right into the hands of liberals. Who is better off without Trump in office, the radicals or the American people who aren't radicalized?

 

[prometeus]

And he has never been known to be corrupt.

Yet one can not but ask the question 'what kind of a man has to be forced to tell the truth?' Somehow honorable is not what comes to mind.

 

[Tangmo]

I have never been a fan of John Bolton.

He was one of the loudest voices in the room for starting an unnecessary war in the wrong country in 2003, and went on to bluster and strut noisily and in effectively until North Korea got their bomb. He was reviled at the UN, and justifiably.

He is famous for being abusive to staff and associate, and for his considerable skill as an office politician (a fundamental skill in Trump world).

I have no faith in Bolton’s world view, which is almost as jingoistic as Trump’s Archie Bunker notions.

But Bolton is not a reckless fool. And he has never been known to be corrupt.

And, while I have never believed that Bolton was any kind of diplomat, I never thought he was corrupt in any way.

I think that he was almost certainly astounded by what he saw in the Trump White House. And I suspect he’s going to have a lot to say about the way Trump has played footsie with the Russians throughout his years in office.

Bolton has the potential to take a chunk out of Trump's arse and maybe worse. He's not anyone Trump can simply walk away from.

That is, Trump has been able to walk away from Mattis, Kelly, McCain, Sessions, Dan Coats among others. Tillerson gave Trump a good kick when it counted with the "He's a ****ing moron" remark that Tillerson hasn't denied.

Bolton is the only one in three years who has the sustained relations and a bonding with Trump's base of Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarian Rightists, the military, veterans, religious crackpots and so on. Indeed, Bolton is the opposite of Trump, ie, a serious man who believes in his country and its destiny as he sees it. Moreover where Trump sees love nests with foreign tyrants Bolton sees the naked enemy.

 

[humbolt]

I am not the Supreme court, but I can read English, and use logic, and read legal books, and read cases/rulings, and read summaries of the law.

The Supreme Court will read and discuss the cases I referenced. You should read them too.



I agree the Courts are the venue to resolve certain Constitutional disputes.

I do not agree that I should remain silent on any particular legal or constitutional issue until the Supreme Court rules on it.

You can be quiet in the face of Trump's violations of the Constitution.

I am going to be speak up, do my duty as a citizen, and advocate the removal of Trump either via impeachment or at the ballot box. Trump is dangerous to the Republic.



I don't think it's a virtue to consistently violate the Constitution, but then again I'm not a fascist like Trump and some of his supporters.



This isn't true.

The witnesses who appeared, even during those initial depositions, had their attorneys with them during the initial hearings:

See page 13 of the following deposition:

READ: Gordon Sondland's Testimony Transcript In Impeachment Inquiry : NPR

What this shows me is you have not read beyond the first few pages of any transcript from ANY of the depositions.

I think I've had enough internet for today...I'll respond to your other points later.

I've had enough too. My eyes are tired. I've enjoyed discussing this with you. And I do believe you are correct that witnesses were not specifically denied counsel, but that the rules denied counsel at some hearings, which could be the same as the former, but not necessarily, so I stand corrected, but only in as much as when such events precluded any witnesses. Still, it's unprecedented and a departure from constitutional due process.

Anyway, have a good evening.

 

[Tangmo]

John Bolton served his country but I have to question his timing especially after being fired from his last position. Tell me exactly why this is even an issue for you and if it would be an issue were it not for Trump? I don't give a damn about Ukraine but I do care about national security and the economy both of which Trump has improved greatly. You want him out of office purely because of hatred not because of his results and what he is doing. That to me is disgusting and playing right into the hands of liberals. Who is better off without Trump in office, the radicals or the American people who aren't radicalized?

No matter how you slice that it's still what it's been all along -- baloney.

I said three years ago that when Trump gets himself into his deepest dung it will be over national security, the national defense, national sovereignty in respect of elections that are free and fair. This is it and now is when it's begun, since the summer actually.

Hardly anyone expects the Senate to remove Trump so that's not the issue nor will that be the end of it. As Trump makes things worse Trump only gets worse. So we can expect the worst is yet to come.

 

[Conservative]

No matter how you slice that it's still what it's been all along -- baloney.

I said three years ago that when Trump gets himself into his deepest dung it will be over national security, the national defense, national sovereignty in respect of elections that are free and fair. This is it and now is when it's begun, since the summer actually.

Hardly anyone expects the Senate to remove Trump so that's not the issue nor will that be the end of it. As Trump makes things worse Trump only gets worse. So we can expect the worst is yet to come.

What is baloney is the action of the radical left who for 3 years has been trying to overturn the election results, why don't you try and explain why?

As I have stated, Trump is taking this country in a direction back to what our Founders created and is a threat to the radical left thus the 24/7 attacks that aren't changing any minds. Trump hasn't made anything worse for you for if he has list it? You can't nor can anyone else as the results are the best of any President for the first three years in office. The American people get it, when will the left?

 

[ClaraD]

What is baloney is the action of the radical left who for 3 years has been trying to overturn the election results, why don't you try and explain why?

As I have stated, Trump is taking this country in a direction back to what our Founders created and is a threat to the radical left thus the 24/7 attacks that aren't changing any minds. Trump hasn't made anything worse for you for if he has list it? You can't nor can anyone else as the results are the best of any President for the first three years in office. The American people get it, when will the left?

once again arguing about the damn election...how about focus on trying to argue whether he is innocent or not...oh...that is right, you know he is guilty as hell so that argument doesn't work.

 

[iguanaman]

Quit lying.

No witnesses have said any such thing.

Denial is strong with you. It's all you have.

 

[Fiddytree]

All of them.

Because they aren't smocking guns, obviously.

 

[Conservative]

once again arguing about the damn election...how about focus on trying to argue whether he is innocent or not...oh...that is right, you know he is guilty as hell so that argument doesn't work.

You think the American people give a damn about Ukraine, why do you? Answer the question or admit this is nothing more than anti Trump hatred and rhetoric. It really is sad to see someone with so much hatred to a person who you will never meet and has done nothing to hurt you or your family. We live in a country with three equal branches of gov't yet you blame someone who has been in office 3 years for your personal responsibility issues and problems

 

[MTAtech]

You think the American people give a damn about Ukraine, why do you? Answer the question or admit this is nothing more than anti Trump hatred and rhetoric. It really is sad to see someone with so much hatred to a person who you will never meet and has done nothing to hurt you or your family. We live in a country with three equal branches of gov't yet you blame someone who has been in office 3 years for your personal responsibility issues and problems

In the words of Richard Nixon, "The American people have a right to know whether their president is a crook."

 

[maxparrish]

A President using the awesome powers of the Federal government to target domestic political opposition isn't a "little bad", it's "really bad". This is something conservatives understood back when it was the Obama IRS targeting Tea Party groups.

This sort of thing sets precedents, creates pressure for the next Democrat President to abuse his or her foreign and security policy powers to target conservatives, and leads to a downward cycle that ends in a very - very - dark place. This is how the Roman Republic self-destructed, and ended up with a First-Citizen/Emperor. It's not a "little bad", it's dangerous as ****.

Poppycock. As I have stated many times, in different threads, a President who is sincerely and reasonably convinced that anyone, including a person that was a potential opponent, might be a source of corruption in cahoots with a foreign government has just as much right as his critics have in investigating him. And as I have also stated, his fault is not in his avowed purpose but in the methods he chose to accomplish that investigation.

Mixing personal attorneys into a government process is inappropriate and inherently a conflict of interest. A President must maintain a wall of separation between what his private associations or campaign desires (even if on his behalf) and the tasking of government investigative officials to look into it. As such Guilliani should not have been giving direction to State department and other employees, or to the Ukraine government.

Therefore, using prior standards of wrong-doing for credible impeachment, Trump should have received a resolution passed by both houses chastising him for poor conduct and misuse of Presidential power. None the less, this incident alone does not rise to the level of impeachment and conviction.

 

[Tangmo]

What is baloney is the action of the radical left who for 3 years has been trying to overturn the election results, why don't you try and explain why?

As I have stated, Trump is taking this country in a direction back to what our Founders created and is a threat to the radical left thus the 24/7 attacks that aren't changing any minds. Trump hasn't made anything worse for you for if he has list it? You can't nor can anyone else as the results are the best of any President for the first three years in office. The American people get it, when will the left?

No matter how you slice it it's still baloney.

The thread and topic present Trump, Ukraine, Bolton.

Stop hiding from it and stop running from all three of 'em. Show some courage by standing up and addressing the thread issues directly. Your rightwing ideology and your wild ideations about the "radical left" are of zero interest or relevance to the question of a Senate vote on witnesses. Do you even know Sen. Toomey just engaged the question by making a statement about it? And Cruz? And so on.