• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump thinks the US subsidizes lower drug prices in other countries?

Yes_Minister

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
7,516
Reaction score
2,752
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Seems like Trump thinks the US subsidizes lower drug prices in other countries:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/amp/

Is there evidence to support this belief? What can Trump do to compell people in other countries to pay more for drugs? Is Trump not respecting the sovereignty of these other countries, isn't their drug prices an internal affair? Is Trump blaming other countries for pricing problems created by US drug companies?
 
It has been a common thing to post here on DP

The idea is that with regulated prices in say Canada (parts of) the drug companies can not recoup their investment dollars in R&D. So the drug companies charge more in the US because of little to no regulation.

So After reading the article it appears Trump is going to make other countries pay more, and still keep US prices high. A win for the drug industry.

Except that politically it would be suicide in the UK, and as a response the UK would likely lower the patent protection period for drugs allowing for generics to come on the market sooner
 
Seems like Trump thinks the US subsidizes lower drug prices in other countries:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/amp/

Is there evidence to support this belief? What can Trump do to compell people in other countries to pay more for drugs? Is Trump not respecting the sovereignty of these other countries, isn't their drug prices an internal affair? Is Trump blaming other countries for pricing problems created by US drug companies?

Many countries have price controls, we don't.Drug prices not only pay for the cost of manufacturing.But they pay for the research and development of that drug as well as the research and development of drugs that failed to make it to market. So Trump is partially right. America and other countries are basically paying the difference.
 
Many countries have price controls, we don't.Drug prices not only pay for the cost of manufacturing.But they pay for the research and development of that drug as well as the research and development of drugs that failed to make it to market. So Trump is partially right. America and other countries are basically paying the difference.

Isn't the obvious solution for US to adopt pricing controls itself? Is R&D so expensive for these companies that they have to charge US customers so much that they would go out of business otherwise? If not, why should people in other countries be forced to pay higher drug prices?
 
Seems like Trump thinks the US subsidizes lower drug prices in other countries:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/amp/

Is there evidence to support this belief? What can Trump do to compell people in other countries to pay more for drugs? Is Trump not respecting the sovereignty of these other countries, isn't their drug prices an internal affair? Is Trump blaming other countries for pricing problems created by US drug companies?

In a way, he's right.

How The US Subsidizes Cheap Drugs For Europe
 
It's a bull**** theory floated by the drug companies and the GOP. Fact is R&D costs are often lower than marketing costs.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/

The reason that drugs are so much higher is a combination of the cartel between the insurance companies and health care industry. Drug pricing is set by big pharma and the insurance industry.... it is not set by supply and demand or anything close to that. When hospitals charge 2 bucks for an asprin... then you know that there is a cartel situation.

In Europe we don't have price controls per say. We have price consultation, meaning drug companies can charge what they want but if the regulator finds it problematic, then... companies tend not to provoke the regulators.

Another thing we have in Europe (some countries) that brings prices down is regulation that states the pharmacy has to give you the cheapest brand on prescriptions regardless of what the doctor has written on the prescription (if he has written a brand).


Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 
Not all drugs are developed in the USA, and not all have funding from drug companies alone, Tax breaks are another matter on top.
 
Isn't the obvious solution for US to adopt pricing controls itself? Is R&D so expensive for these companies that they have to charge US customers so much that they would go out of business otherwise? If not, why should people in other countries be forced to pay higher drug prices?
Thr net effect is it would slow down the development of future drugs.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Another thing we have in Europe (some countries) that brings prices down is regulation that states the pharmacy has to give you the cheapest brand on prescriptions regardless of what the doctor has written on the prescription (if he has written a brand).

Medicare and the other insurers have the same restriction, demanding use of the least expensive generic when available, and they can suspend a doctor from coverage privileges for writing name brand prescriptions, without medical justification, when generics are available. There have been moments when patients did not respond well to generics, quality controls were an issue, or slightly different ingredients were the reason, i.e. carrier agents and buffers.

During the past 5 years or so, another problem has developed. Commodity traders buying up local supply of ingredients for medications and then jacking up the prices of those ingredients. I watched one of the minor but necessary medications I take, rise from one of the least expensive generics I take, to the second most expensive, over a period of two months. There is no direct substitute.

Another difference between other venues with the US, is that the US keeps many mendicants subject to prescriptive approvals, both for safety and tracking patient use, and to keep insurers footing the bill. Insurers here do not pay for OTC medications.

Keep in mind, even with the EU, different countries in Europe do have different regulations, customs and traditions which effect local pricing. When we traveled Europe last summer, I found different pricing for the same medications in different countries, and a few that were more expensive than found in the US, one in particular which need to be ordered from the US. It was less expensive and quicker for me to have someone have the prescription fulfilled by my local pharmacy here and then overnight it to me. I found it interesting that no customs agents interfered with FedEx.

One expense here does play a differentiating role, pharma advertising is much more expensive here.
 
Thr net effect is it would slow down the development of future drugs.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Is it? How much of the high prices for drugs go to R&D and how much are just pure profit?

Also what do you suggest instead? Making other countries pay more for drugs? How would you accomplish that and what evidence is there that higher drug prices in other countries would lower prices in the US?
 


That's a bit misleading. The average new drug finds pricing by cause of the FDA approval process to be about 3%. The FDA quality control testing for generics can be as high as 15%. When pharma companies compute approval costs they amortize the R&D and other costs of failed drugs into the costs of those that are approved, raising in their bookkeeping the approval costs at times more than 80%. This can be reversed by IRS regulation, no FDA approval necessary.
 
Medicare and the other insurers have the same restriction, demanding use of the least expensive generic when available, and they can suspend a doctor from coverage privileges for writing name brand prescriptions, without medical justification, when generics are available. There have been moments when patients did not respond well to generics, quality controls were an issue, or slightly different ingredients were the reason, i.e. carrier agents and buffers.

Unless the law has changed, then this does not matter. Why? Medicare/Aid are not allowed negotiate the best price for drugs... the first law Bush Jr put in place.

During the past 5 years or so, another problem has developed. Commodity traders buying up local supply of ingredients for medications and then jacking up the prices of those ingredients. I watched one of the minor but necessary medications I take, rise from one of the least expensive generics I take, to the second most expensive, over a period of two months. There is no direct substitute.

Should be banned and a criminal offence.

Another difference between other venues with the US, is that the US keeps many mendicants subject to prescriptive approvals, both for safety and tracking patient use, and to keep insurers footing the bill. Insurers here do not pay for OTC medications.

It varies by country but for example, in Spain you can buy almost any drug (minus opium and similar) without prescription. The prescription comes into play for those who get their meds paid by the government (anyone older than 65) or reduced rates. In Denmark you need prescription for most things last I looked, but then again Danish drug prices are also some of the highest in Europe.

Keep in mind, even with the EU, different countries in Europe do have different regulations, customs and traditions which effect local pricing. When we traveled Europe last summer, I found different pricing for the same medications in different countries, and a few that were more expensive than found in the US, one in particular which need to be ordered from the US. It was less expensive and quicker for me to have someone have the prescription fulfilled by my local pharmacy here and then overnight it to me. I found it interesting that no customs agents interfered with FedEx.

Correct. Spain has traditionally the lowest prices in western Europe and that is due to local traditions and regulations. As for having to order from the US.. dunno what it was of a drug but was there no substitute in Europe? American doctors have a bad habit of being in the pocket of big pharma, which is why I am sceptical. The prescribe one brand as the only thing that works, when in reality it is not.. but they get paid to sell that brand. In Europe that is illegal.

One expense here does play a differentiating role, pharma advertising is much more expensive here.

Big pharma uses more on advertising by far, than on R&D.
 
What can Trump do to compell people in other countries to pay more for drugs?
I think that’s the main question here. I can’t see what he could legitimately do but he could well engage in one of his trade wars, effectively trying to blackmail other nations in to not negotiating such favourable prices from the drug companies. I’m not convinced even that would work though and it would obviously be disastrous to all involved regardless.

This seems to be a distraction from the fundamental issue that is the private free-market form of the bulk of the US healthcare system. An obvious approach would be to establish some form of group buying there, either backed by government which in turn supplies the clinicians or promoting and supporting the healthcare industry in engaging in larger scale collective bargaining. I expect there’d be all sorts of political backlash from that kind of approach though, not to mention the backlash from all the pharmaceutical industry lobbyists in politicians back pockets.

I don’t see any easy fix and I don’t believe Trump is willing or able to inspire any difficult one.
 
Unless the law has changed, then this does not matter. Why? Medicare/Aid are not allowed negotiate the best price for drugs... the first law Bush Jr put in place.

There is a misunderstanding with medicare's role. Medicare does not pay for medications unless the patient is hospitalized. It is up to the beneficiary to buy and pay a premium for a third party drug plan to obtain coverage. The third party plan does negotiate for pricing, not subject to the law.

Should be banned and a criminal offence.

Very difficult because of other laws guaranteeing free markets for commodities, except during time of war emergency, when rationing can be called into play. Here, this is an issue of conscience, and these players should be identified and publicly shamed, which can lead to further examination ala Martin Shrekel. The authorities didn't get him for his manipulation of drug pricing, but they sure got him for everything else where the book could be thrown at him. He became the momentary most hated man in America. :) Donald has left him in the shadows.

It varies by country but for example, in Spain you can buy almost any drug (minus opium and similar) without prescription. The prescription comes into play for those who get their meds paid by the government (anyone older than 65) or reduced rates. In Denmark you need prescription for most things last I looked, but then again Danish drug prices are also some of the highest in Europe.

This is why universal statements comparing Europe to the US doesn't play well.

Correct. Spain has traditionally the lowest prices in western Europe and that is due to local traditions and regulations. As for having to order from the US.. dunno what it was of a drug but was there no substitute in Europe? American doctors have a bad habit of being in the pocket of big pharma, which is why I am sceptical. The prescribe one brand as the only thing that works, when in reality it is not.. but they get paid to sell that brand. In Europe that is illegal.

Same as in Europe, there are medications fast tracked for approval in one locale, not approved elsewhere, still in process. I take an preventative anti-arhythmatic medication that wasn't only fast tracked, but tailored for me. An experimental therapy. Here it is treated as if it were a controlled substance. Only 18 doctors in NYS are qualified to prescribe it. There are other anti-arhythmatic medications, but none so effective. It doesn't exist in Europe, tho a similar medication is waiting for additional study and approval. The US version can be prescribed in Europe and imported by hospital pharmacies. Ironically, but not really, medicare demanded that it be made approved coverage by 3rd party insurers because it was found that the therapy avoided far more expensive hospital stays and alternative therapies. The drug, and there is a generic version, cost more than $450 for a month's supply. When I started with the name brand, monthly supply cost over $850.

Big pharma uses more on advertising by far, than on R&D.

Same in Europe, but not as severe. Partially because advertising rates are much lower in general. Smaller audiences.

As an aside, in both the US and Europe, aspirin would be a prescriptive drug if it were a recent discovery. It is one of the most powerful medications in the market place, treating headaches, assorted pains from arthritis, blocking certain cancers, a blood thinner, an analgesic that reduces fevers and more, including anti hangover therapies, something I know well. :) More than two drinks and I am in pain the next morning.
 
I think that’s the main question here. I can’t see what he could legitimately do but he could well engage in one of his trade wars, effectively trying to blackmail other nations in to not negotiating such favourable prices from the drug companies. I’m not convinced even that would work though and it would obviously be disastrous to all involved regardless.

This seems to be a distraction from the fundamental issue that is the private free-market form of the bulk of the US healthcare system. An obvious approach would be to establish some form of group buying there, either backed by government which in turn supplies the clinicians or promoting and supporting the healthcare industry in engaging in larger scale collective bargaining. I expect there’d be all sorts of political backlash from that kind of approach though, not to mention the backlash from all the pharmaceutical industry lobbyists in politicians back pockets.

I don’t see any easy fix and I don’t believe Trump is willing or able to inspire any difficult one.


Anyone who believes the US healthcare market is free market is deluding themselves. The market would be less controlled were it in government hands rather than Insurance company hands where it currently lays.
 
As an aside, in both the US and Europe, aspirin would be a prescriptive drug if it were a recent discovery. It is one of the most powerful medications in the market place, treating headaches, assorted pains from arthritis, blocking certain cancers, a blood thinner, an analgesic that reduces fevers and more, including anti hangover therapies, something I know well. :) More than two drinks and I am in pain the next morning.

In Spain you can get aspirin (or basic over the counter painkiller) on prescription, which for retired means .. free (almost).
 

From your link:
“At the very least, there’s not a great solution other than completely upending and gutting the healthcare system that we have today,” Sherkow, of New York Law School, said. It would be all but impossible for the U.S. to haggle with other countries over drug prices, he pointed out, while the option of allowing the U.S. government to negotiate prices with drugmakers was also politically unlikely.

Even if European countries were to raise their prices—as Eli Lilly’s CEO has openly called for—that wouldn’t automatically decrease prices in the U.S. Meanwhile, drug companies have no motive to lower drug prices in the U.S.

“The problem is right now, the system is such that a company that sets a low price is not going to be rewarded for it—it’s going to be punished for it,” Kolassa said, noting that any company that lowered prices would face backlash from investors and stockholders. Instead, he said, “the incentive in the system is to keep going higher and higher until the whole thing falls apart.”

The whole U.S. healthcare system is not sustainable, but because the big players have a lot of lobbying clout nothing will be done about it until the wheels come off completely.
 
In Spain you can get aspirin (or basic over the counter painkiller) on prescription, which for retired means .. free (almost).

You can get an aspirin script here also, but the insurers won't pay for any OTC medication. However, the generic labels couldn't be much cheaper. I paid about $3 for a bottle of buffered 200mg tabs, 150, about a week ago.
 
Back
Top Bottom