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Trump still insists that Mexico will pay for the border wall

I think he was just saying what felt most convenient to say at the moment.

If you set up a question like, "Do you still want Mexico to pay for a border wall?" obviously the answer is going to be "absolutely." If you ask him "Should we turn the poor into mulch?" he's going to answer "Sure, sure, that's a possibility. We've got to keep everything on the table and see what happens."

For someone like Trump, good questions don't create a single opening that he's obviously going to go for. A much better strategy is to ask an open ended question that forces him to explain his understanding of a topic. Then sit back and let the incoherent hilarity ensue.
 
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Yes_Minister said:
Trump still insists that Mexico will pay for the border wall. So is this a concrete policy proposal or is he just stringing his base along? What if Mexico contiues to say no, then what?


https://www.google.ca/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19S1WI
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Trump is not the type of man to admit defeat. He could be losing horribly and it is only because the otherside cheated. So of course them saying no isn't going to stop him from saying they will do it. It won't surprise me that he wil give them the money to pay for the wall (a trade off, give X amount of debt forgiveness for x amount of wall payment)
 
joG said:
He is probably structuring the deal to make it the best thing for Mexico to do. :)
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The happy face makes me think you are kidding, but just to engage in a serious academic exercise, how would one create such deal where paying for this wall is the best thing for Mexico?
 
Yes_Minister said:
The happy face makes me think you are kidding, but just to engage in a serious academic exercise, how would one create such deal where paying for this wall is the best thing for Mexico?
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Nafta is worth far more to Mexico than a quick and dirty wall.
 
joG said:
Nafta is worth far more to Mexico than a quick and dirty wall.
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So the plan would be try to strong arm Mexico into paying for the wall, by threatening trade sanctions against them if they do not comply? Okay, Mexico might just tell Trump to take a hike and pursue other trading relations with other countries instead.

Also the wall would not be quick and dirty, it would be massively expensive and maintenance costs would be a huge factor, it would be a constant drain of money and its naive to assume the US gains nothing from trade with Mexico:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/mexico-nafta-trade/510008/

The wall would be massively unpopular in Mexico without having the Mexican government pay for it, any Mexican President who would agree to such a deal would be committing political suicide and NAFTA in of itself is not enough to make the Mexican public support this.

Its silly to assume that Mexicans do not have as much national pride as Americans do and Mexico paying for this wall would be far too great a wounding of national pride for the Mexican public to support.
 
Yes_Minister said:
Trump still insists that Mexico will pay for the border wall. So is this a concrete policy proposal or is he just stringing his base along?
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Not sure, as there has been very little revealed as to what the plan to get Mexico to pay for the wall would look like.

What if Mexico contiues to say no, then what?
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I would assume some sort of tariff or other financial action targeting Mexico.


Yes_Minister said:
II do wonder (how) long his base will let him get away with saying that, if there is no real action on it?
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His term as well as a second term if he is able to win the next election.

I also wonder if his base have considered the negative consequences of the wall?
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Some. What aspect concerns you most?

how would one create such deal where paying for this wall is the best thing for Mexico?
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That would depend on quite a few things: what we talking about when we say costs? Cost to build or costs to maintain? It would also depend on what Mexico wants from the United States, if anything.

Step one though would be forcing the Mexican government to put their chips on he table by annoceing the best case scenario: Mexico directly pays for the wall, no questions asked. Having a firm position to negotiate is risky move but does create a bargaining position. The reality is Mexico has not been all that helpful on boarder security as to now. So taking a soft approach would be unlikely to change anything from the status quo.

So the plan would be try to strong arm Mexico into paying for the wall, by threatening trade sanctions against them if they do not comply?
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A very simplified look at position the US would take. Again what is Trumps actually objective? It’s quite clear he doesn’t expect Mexico would just roll over. He does however want to renegotiate trade in general. So maybe this is about overstating his position to anchor the deal to his favour. A tactic he is very fond of…

Okay, Mexico might just tell Trump to take a hike and pursue other trading relations with other countries instead.
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One reason, a diplomat doesn’t talk like a mob enforcer.

Yes_Minister said:
Also the wall would not be quick and dirty, it would be massively expensive and maintenance costs would be a huge factor, it would be a constant drain of money and its naive to assume the US gains nothing from trade with Mexico:
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You assume Trump doesn’t know that? Yet he worked successfully in the construction business for how many years? And he has said he views Mexico as having done a pretty good job negotiating their interests. You act like he speaks of other countries as weak players and just expect everyone to hands the US favours.

I not sure we are listening to the same talking points.

You seem to assume Trump should have to reveal his plans and get it vetted by the American people. He made a campaign promise to “Build the Wall and have Mexico pay for it”. Can he do it? Maybe…if he fails he does no worse then the many other who have promised and failed to deliver border security in regard to Mexico. If he succeeds then he will enliven his base and look wonderful. His risk to take.

If you argument is his policy is outlandish. Have you seen the policy points coming out of politicians in which this was said? Just looking what we have, we have a ton of programs that are completely under financed and 30% deficit not to mention the money coming by monetary inflation above the rate of economic growth….Trump is more than welcome to make outlandish promises as that is 90% of what politics is about!

Is it possible? Yes.
Is it needed? Yes.
Is it easy? No.

I wish the president the best of luck on his vision. I'll give him his term at least to prove he’s a doer and not a lame duck. The balls in his court now. So far he's done a great job in my estimate and act more an adult than his critics, which is saying something cause this is trump we are talking about.
 
Mexico will pay for the Wall when pigs fly.
 
Conaeolos said:
Not sure, as there has been very little revealed as to what the plan to get Mexico to pay for the wall would look like.


I would assume some sort of tariff or other financial action targeting Mexico.



His term as well as a second term if he is able to win the next election.


Some. What aspect concerns you most?


That would depend on quite a few things: what we talking about when we say costs? Cost to build or costs to maintain? It would also depend on what Mexico wants from the United States, if anything.

Step one though would be forcing the Mexican government to put their chips on he table by annoceing the best case scenario: Mexico directly pays for the wall, no questions asked. Having a firm position to negotiate is risky move but does create a bargaining position. The reality is Mexico has not been all that helpful on boarder security as to now. So taking a soft approach would be unlikely to change anything from the status quo.


A very simplified look at position the US would take. Again what is Trumps actually objective? It’s quite clear he doesn’t expect Mexico would just roll over. He does however want to renegotiate trade in general. So maybe this is about overstating his position to anchor the deal to his favour. A tactic he is very fond of…


One reason, a diplomat doesn’t talk like a mob enforcer.


You assume Trump doesn’t know that? Yet he worked successfully in the construction business for how many years? And he has said he views Mexico as having done a pretty good job negotiating their interests. You act like he speaks of other countries as weak players and just expect everyone to hands the US favours.

I not sure we are listening to the same talking points.

You seem to assume Trump should have to reveal his plans and get it vetted by the American people. He made a campaign promise to “Build the Wall and have Mexico pay for it”. Can he do it? Maybe…if he fails he does no worse then the many other who have promised and failed to deliver border security in regard to Mexico. If he succeeds then he will enliven his base and look wonderful. His risk to take.

If you argument is his policy is outlandish. Have you seen the policy points coming out of politicians in which this was said? Just looking what we have, we have a ton of programs that are completely under financed and 30% deficit not to mention the money coming by monetary inflation above the rate of economic growth….Trump is more than welcome to make outlandish promises as that is 90% of what politics is about!

Is it possible? Yes.
Is it needed? Yes.
Is it easy? No.

I wish the president the best of luck on his vision. I'll give him his term at least to prove he’s a doer and not a lame duck. The balls in his court now. So far he's done a great job in my estimate and act more an adult than his critics, which is saying something cause this is trump we are talking about.
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I don't want to create a wall of text by addressing all of those points one by one, so I will boil things down.

Whether you believe Trump on anything comes down to whether you think Trump is an honest broker or if you think he is a con artist who's policy platform comes down to empty slogans and promises he has no idea how to keep. I obviously think the later is true and I look at his business record and his habit of ripping off vendors as proof.

I don't think he has any idea about how he will build the wall or make Mexico pay for it, because those were campaign slogans, not thought out policies.

As for concerns about the wall, let's deal with a big one, what about private farms and businesses on the Texas Mexico border, should government seize private land to make the wall? Are you okay with that, as a Libertarian?

And if you do believe in the wall, will you hold Trump accountable if nothing happens with it?
 
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Yes_Minister said:
Whether you believe Trump on anything comes down to whether you think Trump is an honest broker or if you think he is a con artist who's policy platform comes down to empty slogans and promises he has no idea how to keep. I obviously think the later is true
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Fair enough. I think he’s an honest broker relative to the political landscape. I am happy to defend that position. I highlight I am not claiming the most honest broker ever, but relative to the American political landscape he's very honest.

I don't think he has any idea about how he will build the wall or make Mexico pay for it, because those were campaign slogans, not thought out policies.
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Fair. What part do you think makes it most impossible or empty? Cost, construction or timeline…

Let’s be clear. I don’t disagree it was a slogan. I think “universal healthcare” is a slogan. I think “free post secondary education” is a slogan. I think “the rich don’t pay the fair share” is a slogan. I think “the military is in disarray” is a slogan. I think “repeal and replace Obama care” is a slogan.

I think any slogan has the possibility of being empty. Thought out policy is always questionable until it is tabled and enacted. I happen to agree with the idea of border security with Mexico which this slogan addresses and I agree with the idea a wall may be a part of a solution. I also think cost is an issue which is why I approve of the idea of tying this to trade with Mexico.

I think had Trump just launched into construction. He would doing more to prove your point: it was an empty slogan if it can't be explained. He as of now has chosen to hold back due to the complexity of the thoughtful policy, which very much leaves open the possibility he does have a plan, so I remain skeptically optimistic he will come through with a policy before the end of his term.

what about private farms and businesses on the Texas Mexico border, should government seize private land to make the wall?
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I object in principle sure but the reality of eminent domain and limited property rights is a well establish reality. I will not fault a politician who doesn’t believe those principles like Trump for not respecting them when the precedent is in his favour. I am not a single issue voter and any candidate will have policies and principles which I disagree.

The benefits of a wall will help border security with Mexico, the principle I share with Trump. That fact, makes me able to stomach this violation which is a separate issue. If I ran I would not have promised a border wall as my border security strategy, knowing well it violates my principles of returning land-ownership back to the people. Not seeing 100% eye to eye with who I support is politics as normal.

And if you do believe in the wall, will you hold Trump accountable if nothing happens with it?
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Yes, if what you mean by accountable is recognize he was unable to fulfil a campaign promise. I would not stop my support of him however as that was one of many issues and promises that won my support. In fact, if he is able to improve border security with Mexico without a wall — even better!

Now if the next candidate against Trump has a case to make they can do better.I will be happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think not following through will hurt him in that case. Instead though, if things remain as they are, the likelihood his opposition will ignore the issue of border security with Mexico is more likely and his failing to negotiate a wall seems minor in comparison. In fact, we have bene promised a wall before and not freaked out when its not built.
 
Conaeolos said:
Fair enough. I think he’s an honest broker relative to the political landscape. I am happy to defend that position. I highlight I am not claiming the most honest broker ever, but relative to the American political landscape he's very honest.
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Fair enough, we will agree to disagree here.

Conaeolos said:
Fair. What part do you think makes it most impossible or empty? Cost, construction or timeline…

Let’s be clear. I don’t disagree it was a slogan. I think “universal healthcare” is a slogan. I think “free post secondary education” is a slogan. I think “the rich don’t pay the fair share” is a slogan. I think “the military is in disarray” is a slogan. I think “repeal and replace Obama care” is a slogan.

I think any slogan has the possibility of being empty. Thought out policy is always questionable until it is tabled and enacted. I happen to agree with the idea of border security with Mexico which this slogan addresses and I agree with the idea a wall may be a part of a solution. I also think cost is an issue which is why I approve of the idea of tying this to trade with Mexico.

I think had Trump just launched into construction. He would doing more to prove your point: it was an empty slogan if it can't be explained. He as of now has chosen to hold back due to the complexity of the thoughtful policy, which very much leaves open the possibility he does have a plan, so I remain skeptically optimistic he will come through with a policy before the end of his term.
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Regarding whether Trump has plan regarding any of this, I will believe it when I see it. I will not give him the benefit of the doubt.

Conaeolos said:
I object in principle sure but the reality of eminent domain and limited property rights is a well establish reality. I will not fault a politician who doesn’t believe those principles like Trump for not respecting them when the precedent is in his favour. I am not a single issue voter and any candidate will have policies and principles which I disagree.

The benefits of a wall will help border security with Mexico, the principle I share with Trump. That fact, makes me able to stomach this violation which is a separate issue. If I ran I would not have promised a border wall as my border security strategy, knowing well it violates my principles of returning land-ownership back to the people. Not seeing 100% eye to eye with who I support is politics as normal.
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Okay, buy you can understand why people on that border would not be happy about this right?

If you want a run down on the problems with the wall, look at this particular I posted, its actually from a Libertarian blog:

Why the Wall Won't Work - Reason.com

I do wonder if its logic or emotion that drives support for this wall.

No offense, but I do think some right wingers think America is somehow surrounded by enemies and needs to be protected from its neighbors, I have seen some people call for a wall between the US and Canada, including Sean Hannity (which is really stupid).

The US is not Israel or South Korea, its not surrounded by neighbors who want to destroy it, I think people should be more grateful the US is a relatively safe neighborhood.

Canada is likely the best neighbor the US can hope for and Mexico, while having some flaws, is not a dangerous enemy state.

Conaeolos said:
Yes, if what you mean by accountable is recognize he was unable to fulfil a campaign promise. I would not stop my support of him however as that was one of many issues and promises that won my support. In fact, if he is able to improve border security with Mexico without a wall — even better!

Now if the next candidate against Trump has a case to make they can do better.I will be happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think not following through will hurt him in that case. Instead though, if things remain as they are, the likelihood his opposition will ignore the issue of border security with Mexico is more likely and his failing to negotiate a wall seems minor in comparison. In fact, we have bene promised a wall before and not freaked out when its not built.
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Okay, fair enough. But as long as Trump is held accountable for his promises, even if I don't agree with them, is something I guess. I have my doubts we will see a wall though.
 
I’d give the Wall a 75% chance myself considering the plans have been so hush hush; but, I see merit even if just using it as a slogan to bring attention to the problem of border security with Mexico. The reality is boarder security is national defence issue and as such compares to a $598 billion budget.

Yes_Minister said:
Okay, but you can understand why people on that border would not be happy about this right?
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Definitely! There is lots of emotional reasons for locals to protest this wall. It's still in the best interests of the country.

Mexico, while having some flaws, is not a dangerous enemy state.
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You know the taking points:
  • The United States has a illegal population of at least 11 million people many of whom crossed that boarder.
  • Remittances are sending some $70 Billion a year south of the border[Mexico+].
  • The U.S. has spent $136 billion since fiscal year 2005 on border security, according to the Migration Policy Institute.
  • Even will all that investment there is still close to half a million people caught crossing the boarder illegally in 2016
  • The Mexican boarder remains the #1 way drugs are trafficked into the United States [and lower supplies mean higher prices]
  • Estimated 60%-80% of the girls crossing into the United States are raped during their journey
  • According to an annual survey by the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), Mexico in 2016 was more violent than war zones such as Afghanistan or Yemen, with a death toll surpassed only by that of Syria.

And you know the counter points
  • The United States may benefit from its illegal population
  • The U.S. boarder expense is likely already too high
  • We do an okay job at 60% not to mention the numbers crossing are down as people move to visa overstays
  • A wall will not stop drug trafficking and is not practical or easy to build
  • The report was a smear on Mexico, which is comparable to most South American countries and just happen to crack down on a drug war which are isolated in reach.

Based on the balance between those two POV, there is no problem with saying that this is not the solution. To say however this is not a problem or compare this to the border with Canada [with just a few more problems] is a complete non-starter. Mexico is a dangerous country and causing very real problems for the United States as a boarder country.

As for Canada. Considering the latest report shows huge changes in demographic trends and a worsening economic condition compared to the States. Maybe one day we will have to be concerned with the northern boarder. For now, its more like a 51st state.

Why the Wall Won't Work - Reason.com
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I started to reply to snippets of the article but it will take to long. Let me summarize:

The author vigorously disagrees with an easy to build wall done ahead of schedule that any fool could have done years ago. Donald Trump in his view has no idea how economic or politics works, he is basically an uneducated pleb who needs to be quiet and if we were going to build a wall ~ why don’t we at least evaluate the effectiveness of what we already have already constructed.

I respect the author. He has many facts to bring to the discussion but he is very much arguing against a straw man and a very narrow reading of the statements.

Trump makes brands. He does what good CEOs do. He does the things which give him the potential to be a wonderful president.

I would hope if he is serious he'd have people on his team who know 100% what David Bier explores. I would hope he’d be smart enough to trust boarder security to direct and shape his general and purposefully vague points into a practical implementation that could help the situation he is promising to address. If those people come back to him and say, you know what Donald we have to do this without a wall. I think he’d challenge them but ultimately listen to them. I don’t think that is what they are saying. I think Donald is vague because it not his job to argue the details and its counterproductive for him to try.

There is a narrative out there. A vicious, slanderous and toxic voice which is telling us you can’t trust Trump. He is just some egotist. Trump is not a child except their minds. Trump is a salesman and he is selling the country back on a vision of a “great America”. From where I am sitting Trump is showing leadership.
 
Conaeolos said:
I’d give the Wall a 75% chance myself considering the plans have been so hush hush; but, I see merit even if just using it as a slogan to bring attention to the problem of border security with Mexico. The reality is boarder security is national defence issue and as such compares to a $598 billion budget.
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If your a Libertarian, shouldn't you want more responsible spending in all areas of government, including defense?

Assuming the US pays for the wall (because no one has come up with a way Mexico pay for it yet), how is the wall more cost effective then more sensors or guards?

Also immigration from Mexico is down, so what is the urgency in all of this?



Conaeolos said:
Based on the balance between those two POV, there is no problem with saying that this is not the solution. To say however this is not a problem or compare this to the border with Canada [with just a few more problems] is a complete non-starter. Mexico is a dangerous country and causing very real problems for the United States as a boarder country.
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I did say Mexico had flaws, but is the Mexican government planning to destroy the US? Does the Mexican government shoot missiles at the US? Are there raiding parties that go over the border and attack towns? Is there constant threat of war between the US and Mexico?

The answer is no, so the US is not dealing with a hostile neighbor the way Israel, Eastern Europe or South Korea does

I think the issues between Mexico and the US are solvable through diplomacy, let's not treat Mexico like its Syria or North Korea and really the US pretty lucky from a geographic standpoint.

Let's face you can complain about drugs coming in from Mexico, but that occurs because there is a demand for it in the US, same thing with cheap labor, rich people in the US profit off of cheap immigrant labor. You can't blame Mexico solely for these problems.

Conaeolos said:
As for Canada. Considering the latest report shows huge changes in demographic trends and a worsening economic condition compared to the States. Maybe one day we will have to be concerned with the northern boarder. For now, its more like a 51st state.
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Where are you getting this idea that Canada has a worsening economy then the US and his a bigger demographics.

The Canadian economy is smaller then the US due to population size, but there is no evidence that the Canadians are worse off then Americans, Toronto is safest big city in North America.

Geographic isolation from most countries mean Canada's demographics are changing more slowly then the US.

Conaeolos said:
I started to reply to snippets of the article but it will take to long. Let me summarize:

The author vigorously disagrees with an easy to build wall done ahead of schedule that any fool could have done years ago. Donald Trump in his view has no idea how economic or politics works, he is basically an uneducated pleb who needs to be quiet and if we were going to build a wall ~ why don’t we at least evaluate the effectiveness of what we already have already constructed.


Trump makes brands. He does what good CEOs do. He does the things which give him the potential to be a wonderful president.

I would hope if he is serious he'd have people on his team who know 100% what David Bier explores. I would hope he’d be smart enough to trust boarder security to direct and shape his general and purposefully vague points into a practical implementation that could help the situation he is promising to address. If those people come back to him and say, you know what Donald we have to do this without a wall. I think he’d challenge them but ultimately listen to them. I don’t think that is what they are saying. I think Donald is vague because it not his job to argue the details and its counterproductive for him to try.

There is a narrative out there. A vicious, slanderous and toxic voice which is telling us you can’t trust Trump. He is just some egotist. Trump is not a child except their minds. Trump is a salesman and he is selling the country back on a vision of a “great America”. From where I am sitting Trump is showing leadership.
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Why should I trust Trump, look at his business record:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-business-plan-left-a-trail-of-unpaid-bills-1465504454

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/donald-trump-scandals/474726/

Why should I assume he has some great plan and isn't a con artist, when frankly his business record tells a different tale?

Also why is the wall most practical solution to illegal immigration, it seems like there are easier and cheaper to deal with that issue.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/26/trump-can-end-illegal-immigration-without-a-wall-commentary.html

How is the wall not just a big waste of money, the tax payers will likely have to foot the bill for?
 
Conaeolos said:
Not sure, as there has been very little revealed as to what the plan to get Mexico to pay for the wall would look like.


I would assume some sort of tariff or other financial action targeting Mexico.



His term as well as a second term if he is able to win the next election.


Some. What aspect concerns you most?


That would depend on quite a few things: what we talking about when we say costs? Cost to build or costs to maintain? It would also depend on what Mexico wants from the United States, if anything.

Step one though would be forcing the Mexican government to put their chips on he table by annoceing the best case scenario: Mexico directly pays for the wall, no questions asked. Having a firm position to negotiate is risky move but does create a bargaining position. The reality is Mexico has not been all that helpful on boarder security as to now. So taking a soft approach would be unlikely to change anything from the status quo.


A very simplified look at position the US would take. Again what is Trumps actually objective? It’s quite clear he doesn’t expect Mexico would just roll over. He does however want to renegotiate trade in general. So maybe this is about overstating his position to anchor the deal to his favour. A tactic he is very fond of…


One reason, a diplomat doesn’t talk like a mob enforcer.


You assume Trump doesn’t know that? Yet he worked successfully in the construction business for how many years? And he has said he views Mexico as having done a pretty good job negotiating their interests. You act like he speaks of other countries as weak players and just expect everyone to hands the US favours.

I not sure we are listening to the same talking points.

You seem to assume Trump should have to reveal his plans and get it vetted by the American people. He made a campaign promise to “Build the Wall and have Mexico pay for it”. Can he do it? Maybe…if he fails he does no worse then the many other who have promised and failed to deliver border security in regard to Mexico. If he succeeds then he will enliven his base and look wonderful. His risk to take.

If you argument is his policy is outlandish. Have you seen the policy points coming out of politicians in which this was said? Just looking what we have, we have a ton of programs that are completely under financed and 30% deficit not to mention the money coming by monetary inflation above the rate of economic growth….Trump is more than welcome to make outlandish promises as that is 90% of what politics is about!

Is it possible? Yes.
Is it needed? Yes.
Is it easy? No.

I wish the president the best of luck on his vision. I'll give him his term at least to prove he’s a doer and not a lame duck. The balls in his court now. So far he's done a great job in my estimate and act more an adult than his critics, which is saying something cause this is trump we are talking about.
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much of what he has claimed credit for was done by others, you are being snookered.
 
Yes_Minister said:
If your a Libertarian, shouldn't you want more responsible spending in all areas of government, including defense?
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Yes and hence why I continue to fight in the battle of ideas so we can have candidates who believe that. We have not won either party over and don’t have enough popular support for a third. So I have to evaluate available options not ideals in terms of my principles. Currently no party talks about the restructure we need to have responsible defense spending which meets or exceeds our security goals.

how is the wall more cost effective then more sensors or guards?
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The effectiveness of a barrier has been proven. e.g. Israel.

what is the urgency in all of this?
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I wouldn’t make it a priority. It was chosen to build a coalition as it a popular priority for many and a weak area for much of the opposition. I also think it has more do with South/Central America rather than Mexico specifically, Mexico serves as a access point as much as anything.

US is not dealing with a hostile neighbor the way Israel, Eastern Europe or South Korea does
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I agree the answer is no to all of those questions. I do not however agree being hostile is the sole reason for border security. See Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland own deliberations on a border walls and border security.

I think the issues between Mexico and the US are solvable through diplomacy
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I and most supporters would not be opposed to any idea which solves the problems better than a wall. A wall works in obvious ways, if you can get over the technical hurdles. What is going to be different with this diplomatic round that going to make a big impact in this issue?

US pretty lucky from a geographic standpoint.
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I don’t disagree we’re lucky with Canada & Mexico. I do disagree a wall means we are treating Mexico like Syria or North Korea as otherwise this would be a much more militaristic discussion.

demand for it in the US, same thing with cheap labor, rich people in the US profit off of cheap immigrant labor. You can't blame Mexico solely for these problems.
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If you have a solution which addresses these domestically. I happy to hear you out. There is huge resistance to any form of cracking down on those who profit on cheap illegal labor. As a proud a proponent of criminal justice reform, the numbers in jail for drug crimes is already too high. Legalizing drugs isn’t on the table. We can’t afford to have open border immigration. We also have a low-skill labour surplus etc.

Where are you getting this idea that Canada has a worsening economy then the US
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GDP / Capita trends:
https://www.google.com/publicdata/e..._gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:CAN:USA&hl=en&dl=en

...and his a bigger demographics.

Geographic isolation from most countries mean Canada's demographics are changing more slowly then the US.
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Canadian Demographics at a Glance: Population growth in Canada
The Daily — Study: A look at immigration, ethnocultural diversity and languages in Canada up to 2036, 2011 to 2036

Population growth in Canada is driven by immigration in a way different from the united states and that likely means a shifting culture. Maybe in no significant way maybe in a major ways. Culture shapes politics. I am only highlighting that Canada is one of countries that has the fastest changing ethnocultural diversity populations in the world and the untied states is actually on a significantly slower trend. It could impact the future.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-business-plan-left-a-trail-of-unpaid-bills-1465504454
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/donald-trump-scandals/474726/
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I could address why none of those bring red flags for me, but I am not sure what that would prove as you think he has a bad busines record which is fair.

You must admit though, someone could compile a list making anyone look awful if they so choose. It happens to pretty much any famous figure. Trump has been in the spot light much of his life and throughout that his reputation was well in tact and barely challanged till this election.
 
Why should I assume he has some great plan and isn't a con artist?
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I would not expect you to do anything of the kind. I only ask you hold him to the same standard of any public/political figure making a claim and not be so quick to dismiss his team could then act like he’s daft when there are perfectly rational explanations on the table whose nuance may well be lost in a slogan.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/26/trump-can-end-illegal-immigration-without-a-wall-commentary.html
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So open borders with a head tax? You don’t see any downside to that? You don’t see a problem with at least 11 million illegals in the country right now? You think those who ignore the law once care a lot about American laws, responsibilities & values and if we just remove that mean stupid law they’ll be law abiding citizens/guest workers? Sorry, but I remain skeptical.

How is the wall not just a big waste of money, the tax payers will likely have to foot the bill for?
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I can’t promise it will not end up that but addressing illegal immigration and border security will remain an intriguing talking point and I think the scariest thing for open border people is just how possible it actual remains.

katzgar said:
much of what he has claimed credit for was done by others, you are being snookered.
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Snookered into?
 
Yes_Minister said:
So the plan would be try to strong arm Mexico into paying for the wall, by threatening trade sanctions against them if they do not comply? Okay, Mexico might just tell Trump to take a hike and pursue other trading relations with other countries instead.

Also the wall would not be quick and dirty, it would be massively expensive and maintenance costs would be a huge factor, it would be a constant drain of money and its naive to assume the US gains nothing from trade with Mexico:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/mexico-nafta-trade/510008/

The wall would be massively unpopular in Mexico without having the Mexican government pay for it, any Mexican President who would agree to such a deal would be committing political suicide and NAFTA in of itself is not enough to make the Mexican public support this.

Its silly to assume that Mexicans do not have as much national pride as Americans do and Mexico paying for this wall would be far too great a wounding of national pride for the Mexican public to support.
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Ask the Spaniards what the cost benefits of their walls against immigrants seeking entry into the EU are. They're smaller, but the calculations would be useful to verify your account the great wall. ;)
 
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