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Trump Ordered To Pay $364 Million In Civil Fraud Case As Judge Finds Ex-President Knowingly Committed Fraud

Plasmaball said:
Jesus this isn't even in the same timezone of stupid.

Go learn about housing before repeating some stupid shit off Twitter thinking you got people with your amazing point.
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I don't accept legal pronouncements from anonymous posters on a messboard. If Letitia James provides her reasons for not indicting Stewart, that would have a degree of authority behind it. Her legal logic still would not absolve her from accusations of a corrupt motive. But Dems don't have a great track record of accounting for their own actions.
 
hooligan said:
Which of these sorts of acts did Stewart engage in? Should be easy.


Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.
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Pretty detailed. Thanks for posting. No wonder the penalty was assessed at half a billion. Trump always thought he could cheat and never be held accountable. Welcome to the real justice system Trump.
 
Plasmaball said:
House was valued at 1.7 million. He sold it for 17 million.
Somehow that's fraud because we all seem to be that stupid to not understand how selling It for 17 million is fraud.
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Here's a quote from one lawyer for your possible education:

"This was never the intent of the statute, which is designed to protect the public from harm, and it now gives the AG carte blanche to sue anyone for any alleged ill-gotten gains," Massimo D'Angelo, a real-estate lawyer at Blank Rome, told Newsweek. "Under the statute, it is to be shown that these types of overvaluations or alleged misrepresentations in property sizes or valuations like Stewart's adversely impact the public. So, then the question becomes, are the public masses getting worse rates or inferior terms because of such indiscretions? This has not been shown, nor do I believe can it be."
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You might give a listen to Stewart's own rant. He tries to prove that Trump's overvaluation is not "victimless" because if Trump gets a good deal, someone else down the line won't get one from the bank. By that logic, Stewart's overvaluation victimized the buyer, even though that buyer agreed to the terms of the sale.
 
Ouroboros said:
Here's a quote from one lawyer for your possible education:


You might give a listen to Stewart's own rant. He tries to prove that Trump's overvaluation is not "victimless" because if Trump gets a good deal, someone else down the line won't get one from the bank. By that logic, Stewart's overvaluation victimized the buyer, even though that buyer agreed to the terms of the sale.
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No. Houses all the time are appraised at one set of value and sell for another.
The buyer who bought this if the appraisal is lower will have to eat it.

Bidding wars happen all the time. I've been part of them
 
Ouroboros said:
I don't accept legal pronouncements from anonymous posters on a messboard. If Letitia James provides her reasons for not indicting Stewart, that would have a degree of authority behind it. Her legal logic still would not absolve her from accusations of a corrupt motive. But Dems don't have a great track record of accounting for their own actions.
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Sure they do. Just making things up isn't a Good idea.
 
Ouroboros said:
That's right, Stewart shouldn't commit crimes and then pretend to be morally superior. I love that in his routine he dressed down the Shark Tank guy for a routine he did on that show. Hello? That show is a fictional construct, as much as Stewart's Daily Show.

What has "pissing people off" have to do with anything? I'm sure Mad Libs have been fine with Stewart pissing people off over and over.
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Shark tank isn't actually a fictional show. 45 seconds on listening to the sharks would tell you that it's all real. They dramatize it sire but it's very real.

We can just ignore your opinion on the matter from here on out. You don't understand it
 
Ouroboros said:
Why would YOU care about specifics? The constant Mad Lib theme here has been, "The law is the law; everyone is held to the same standard and the NY fraud case is not jury rigged to Get Trump." If Stewart over-valued, he committed fraud, regardless of degree. When's the indictment?
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More non-answers. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

What fraud, specifically, did Stewart commit? "Overvalued" is a nonsense claim - overvalued how and to whom?

You still haven't answered how "overvaluing" your property in NYC yields you lower taxes.
 
The Hairy Fiddler said:
Pretty detailed. Thanks for posting. No wonder the penalty was assessed at half a billion. Trump always thought he could cheat and never be held accountable. Welcome to the real justice system Trump.
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Thanks due to @Visbek - I copy pasta'd that from one of his earlier posts. ;)
 
Plasmaball said:
No. Houses all the time are appraised at one set of value and sell for another.
The buyer who bought this if the appraisal is lower will have to eat it.

Bidding wars happen all the time. I've been part of them
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But that POV clearly goes against Jon Stewart's lofty principles, or the principles he claims to expouse, at least when he's talking about persons on the other side of the political divide.

Here's what Kevin O'Leary correctly said about the singular nature of the Trump fraud case:

“Everything you just listed off is done by every real estate developer everywhere on earth, in every city,” he snapped back. “This has never, ever been prosecuted.”
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To which Stewart replied that regular practice is not an excuse:

Even if everyone’s doing it; try getting a car loan by saying you have 10 times as much money as you really do. Or claim 20 dependents when you have no children. Or say you make slightly less money to qualify for food assistance — I will guarantee you, there are not just financial consequences for those lies, but criminal ones.

“But don’t tell that to the investment community, because in their minds in pursuit of profit, there is no rule that cannot be bent. There is no principle that can not be undercut, as long as you and your friends are making money.”
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So by his own lights, Stewart undercut his own principles by over-valuing his property in order to make money.

We don't know that he committed fraud, but we don't know what the buyer was told. Stewart's few comments have not touched on those details. Will the buyer come forward and claim he was cheated by misrepresentations? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe, like the banks who made loans to Trump on his terms, the buyer is perfectly happy with having paid more money, as long as he got what he wanted.

But the position of the New York prosecutors is that they don't have to be reined in by any "victimless crime." So your claim that the buyer can't be considered a victim is irrelevant to the prosecutors' argument. It doesn't matter if "bidding wars happen all the time," because that's the essence of O'Leary's argument. (And really, some seller markup is appropriate-- but 849 percent? Really?) Jon Stewart pretended to be a paragon of honesty, and, whether or not he can be prosecuted, he stands revealed as a money loving partisan hack.
 
Plasmaball said:
Shark tank isn't actually a fictional show. 45 seconds on listening to the sharks would tell you that it's all real. They dramatize it sire but it's very real.

We can just ignore your opinion on the matter from here on out. You don't understand it
Click to expand...
O'Leary is on the show to piss on grand new inventions. It's a structured setup; not reality. Stewart riffing on the persona O'Leary assumes on a TV show is the comment of a moron.
 
Ouroboros said:
But that POV clearly goes against Jon Stewart's lofty principles, or the principles he claims to expouse, at least when he's talking about persons on the other side of the political divide.

Here's what Kevin O'Leary correctly said about the singular nature of the Trump fraud case:



To which Stewart replied that regular practice is not an excuse:


So by his own lights, Stewart undercut his own principles by over-valuing his property in order to make money.

We don't know that he committed fraud, but we don't know what the buyer was told. Stewart's few comments have not touched on those details. Will the buyer come forward and claim he was cheated by misrepresentations? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe, like the banks who made loans to Trump on his terms, the buyer is perfectly happy with having paid more money, as long as he got what he wanted.

But the position of the New York prosecutors is that they don't have to be reined in by any "victimless crime." So your claim that the buyer can't be considered a victim is irrelevant to the prosecutors' argument. It doesn't matter if "bidding wars happen all the time," because that's the essence of O'Leary's argument. (And really, some seller markup is appropriate-- but 849 percent? Really?) Jon Stewart pretended to be a paragon of honesty, and, whether or not he can be prosecuted, he stands revealed as a money loving partisan hack.
Click to expand...

Did you recently get hired on by The Onion?
 
ElChupacabra said:
That's intentional comedy; for most anyway. Those without a sense of humor might think differently.
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Nope, the only comedy Colbert brings forth, like you, is laughing at him, not with him.
 
Ouroboros said:
Here's what Kevin O'Leary correctly said about the singular nature of the Trump fraud case:
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Ask O'Leary if he triples the square footage and the value of his personal home when he applies for loans.

I dare you.
 
Ouroboros said:
Why, do they have the justifications "Honest" Jon Stewart had for overvaluing his property? Sign me up, then!
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No, they post satire which is pretty much what this whole "Stewart selling home is the same as Trump fraudulently claiming his triplex is 30,000 sq ft when it's 10,000 sq ft to get a better loan" nonsense.

Had this been about someone buying Mar a Lago for $1.5 billion or even 1 trillion, nobody would give a crap. It's not. But I suggest you guys put in a strong effort to convince a judge anywhere in the country the two are the same. We'll wait for the reply.
 
Ouroboros said:
We don't know that he committed fraud, but we don't know what the buyer was told.
Click to expand...


Finally a tiny sliver of honesty and intellectual integrity.

Get back to us all when you do know..... well, something.

Do be sure to tie whatever claims you make about Stewart to these:


Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.
 
hooligan said:
Finally a tiny sliver of honesty and intellectual integrity.

Get back to us all when you do know..... well, something.

Do be sure to tie whatever claims you make about Stewart to these:


Trump Tower Triplex
Actual square footage: 10,000 sq ft
Claimed square footage: 30,000 sq ft
Overvaluation on SCFs: $114 million to $207 million
After Forbes outed him for lying about the size of the apartment, in 2017 he reduced the amount on future SFCs to 10,000 square feet with a value of $116 million.
Excuse: Determinations of square footage are "subjective."
Fraud: 100-200%

Seven Springs
Assessments by entities hired by Trump Org valued it around $30 million to $50 million.
Trump Org claimed on SFCs it was worth $260 million to $290 million.
Fraud: 480%

Trump Park Avenue
12 rent-stabilized units assessed at $750,000 total in 2010. Note, rent stabilization lowers the value, because by law the owner basically can't raise the rent. It's very difficult, by the way, to remove rent stabilization in NY; the rent stabilization can even be inherited by one's children.
A second assessment in 2020 valued the building at $22 million.
TO treated the value of these units as though they were not rent stabilized. They overvalued the building by 700% in 2010, and 64% in 2020.
Excuse: "The rent-stabilized units have the potential at some point in the future to be converted into unencumbered units." (Note: SCFs required current value, not a theoretical future value based on different conditions.)
Fraud: 64% to 700%, depending on the year

40 Wall Street
TO has the ground lease to this building.
Appraised by Cushman & Wakefield in 2011 at $220 million; TO claimed on SCFs that it was worth $527 million.
Appraised in 2015 at $540 million; TO claimed on SCFs it was worth $735 million.
Fraud: 35% to 100%

Mar-A-Lago
MAL is a historic site, meaning that it basically needs to be permanently maintained in its current state. E.g. it can't be knocked down, only employees are supposed to reside there etc.
Palm Beach County assessor valued it at $18 million (2011) to $27 million (2021).
TO valued it at $426 million (2011) and then $612 million (2021) -- a 2,300% overstatement. Also far beyond residential comps (let alone highly restricted commercial, which is lower).
Excuse: They claimed they could just ignore the restrictions. See above re: current/hypotheticals.
Fraud: 2,300%

Aberdeen Golf Course
TO got permission to build 1,486 rental units on the site. They later reduced this to 500 units.
TO claimed in SFCs that it had approval to build 2,500 homes, and used that to create an inflated value on the SFCs.
Fraud: 100-300%

More Golf
TO simultaneously claimed that the Trump brand increased the value of 7 golf courses by 15-30%, while denying they applied a brand premium.
Fraud: 15-30%

More Golf: Briarcliff
Appraised at $14 million.
TO listed it as $74 million in SCFs.
Excuse: TO claimed they could value it based on what it cost to purchase and maintain the property, not fair market value.
Fraud: 428%

Membership Liabilities
When he bought some golf courses, he assumed millions in liabilities for membership deposits. TO listed the liabilities as $0.

Vornado
TO has a 30% stake in Vornado, but he can't use or withdraw funds. Despite this, TO listed it as a liquid/cash asset.

Licensing Deals
TO fraudulently included intra-organizational deals as assets.
Fraud: $100 million - $200 million per year.
Click to expand...

One might buy the idea that the Trump Org was completely inept and entirely incompetent, except that ALL of their "mistakes" benefitted THEM. So no, we know that they knew exactly was they were doing.
It is crystal clear that TrumpCo was engaged in a decades long deliberate fleecing of customers, investors, financial institutions, partners, and taxpayers.

Lock Him Up.
 
BabaVoss said:
One might buy the idea that the Trump Org was completely inept and entirely incompetent, except that ALL of their "mistakes" benefitted THEM. So no, we know that they knew exactly was they were doing.
It is crystal clear that TrumpCo was engaged in a decades long deliberate fleecing of customers, investors, financial institutions, partners, and taxpayers.

Lock Him Up.
Click to expand...

Claiming that you can build 5x the true number of homes in a development than you're actually allowed goes well beyond incompetence.

Claiming internal licensing deals as assets goes well beyond ineptitude.

Failing to claim obvious liabilities goes well beyond naiveté.

The people who claim they don't see the fraud are either morons who probably shouldn't be trusted to look after themselves, or they're lying. I know which my money is on.
 
hooligan said:
Claiming that you can build 5x the true number of homes in a development than you're actually allowed goes well beyond incompetence.

Claiming internal licensing deals as assets goes well beyond ineptitude.

Failing to claim obvious liabilities goes well beyond naiveté.

The people who claim they don't see the fraud are either morons who probably shouldn't be trusted to look after themselves, or they're lying. I know which my money is on.
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I'll take lying as well. It is what they do. It is why they like trump. He's a liars liar, the best liar ever. And everybody knows it.
 
Ouroboros said:
Nope, the only comedy Colbert brings forth, like you, is laughing at him, not with him.
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Ooh, that's almost emo-edgy. I not surprised that your attempts at sick burns are as bad as much of what you've posited in this thread. So anyway, are you going to provide more insight into your comically absurd equivocation of what Jon Stewart did and what Trump did? That had a lot more comedic value than your attempts at insults.
 
hooligan said:
What fraud do you propose that Stewart engaged in? Be specific.

You still haven't answered how overvaluing a piece of property in NY results in lower taxes. Enquiring minds want to know!
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I didn't say Stewart's overvaluing "resulted" in lower taxes. But JS paid property taxes based on the government's assessment values, and then turned around and said that the property had far greater value on the open market than the government said it did. His critique of Trump was never purely about the charge of fraud, as you have falsely represented. He critiqued the O'Leary circle simply for being willing to do anything to make money, but it's clear that he was willing to wildly inflate his property's value to make money. JS can claim that he didn't lie in his justifications of that inflation, but his bald assertion is not enough.
 
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