Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Revisited

[jaeger19]

Nice attempt at a strawman, I never stated that the commission ranked by bodyfat they don't need to, people with high body fat have lower cardio, endurance, etc on average and do not perform well. Even the exceptions like Mark Hunt or Big Country have considerable muscle mass under their fat. But keep up with the straw man if it makes you happy. In a court of law, your arguments would fail. Or any moderated debate for that matter. [emoji849]


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Yeah.. I doubt my argument will fail in a court of law. You are the one trying to backpedal but but but.. fat weight...

Besides the fact that you forget that Zimmerman trained diligently for 3 days a week for a year. A person who trains that regularly will have a better cardio, better endurance and better strength than a person with a much lower body fat percentage that does no regular fitness training or say sits around smoking marijuana........

 

[Salsassin]

Yeah.. I doubt my argument will fail in a court of law. You are the one trying to backpedal but but but.. fat weight...

Nice try. No backpedaling. The point is still the same physical fitness matters and bodyfat levels matter. In MMA or any other athletic sport. And yes, it would fail, because any medical expert would testify that an obese person is still out of shape even if they trained for a year and lost weight from grossly obese.

Besides the fact that you forget that Zimmerman trained diligently for 3 days a week for a year. A person who trains that regularly will have a better cardio, better endurance and better strength than a person with a much lower body fat percentage that does no regular fitness training or say sits around smoking marijuana........

Keep dreaming. Zimmerman was a grossly obese person the year before. He is more fit than himself a year ago, but nowhere close to having the endurance of a 17 year old who played football. When Zimmerman encountered Martin, as his trainee said, he was still unfit, soft.


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[Fenton Lum]

Ever since this story first broke I have had a burning question. What I remember hearing was that GZ called 911 and the police dispatcher told him not to pursue 'the subject'. There were other parts to the story and if I am mistaken please correct me. My question has to do with the authority of the police dispatcher. I would think that there would be a trained/evaluated person on the other end of the 911 hotline. Why wouldn't their direction carry LEO authority. I would think that if a police dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue the subject and he failed to heed that there would be ramifications, legally. By the way GZ, a real classy individual!

As with everything in our legal system, it depends upon how the law can be twisted, and who the law is dealing with. Different stokes for different folks has always been at play in american jurisprudence.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Nice try. No backpedaling. The point is still the same physical fitness matters and bodyfat levels matter. In MMA or any other athletic sport. And yes, it would fail, because any medical expert would testify that an obese person is still out of shape even if they trained for a year and lost weight from grossly obese.



Keep dreaming. Zimmerman was a grossly obese person the year before. He is more fit than himself a year ago, but nowhere close to having the endurance of a 17 year old who played football. When Zimmerman encountered Martin, as his trainee said, he was still unfit, soft.


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I agree Zimmerman is a *****.

 

[Salsassin]

I agree Zimmerman is a *****.

If being fat and out of shape is being a ***** to you, so be it. Matter of opinion. For me a person who is trying to improve himself and is in better shape than he was before, even if he still isn't in optimal shape, shows me a person with more will than someone who just goes around calling fat people ******s.


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[Fenton Lum]

If being fat and out of shape is being a ***** to you, so be it. Matter of opinion. For me a person who is trying to improve himself and is in better shape than he was before, even if he still isn't in optimal shape, shows me a person with more will than someone who just goes around calling fat people ******s.


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A grownass "man", who was part of something like this is a *****, regardless of BMI.

 

[jaeger19]

Nice try. No backpedaling. The point is still the same physical fitness matters and bodyfat levels matter. In MMA or any other athletic sport. And yes, it would fail, because any medical expert would testify that an obese person is still out of shape even if they trained for a year and lost weight from grossly obese.

And so does weight, yep.. just weight. that's why they have weightclasses in sports like wrestling and judo, and boxing and MMA.

I was a college level wrestler.. I was about 3% bodyfat.. at 150 pounds.

I wasn't going to beat on the mat a guy weighing 215 with 10% bodyfat.

You can keep claiming that its the case and weight doesn't matter.. but you are wrong.

Keep dreaming. Zimmerman was a grossly obese person the year before.

A YEAR ago.. perhaps. A year of training 3 x week diligently.. is a different story.

 

[Salsassin]

First.. there is no evidence that Zimmermans head was "slammed to the ground".. None.. zilch. the evidence shows that he suffered insignificant injuries. He did not suffer a concussion.. he did not have facial edema, fractures of the zygomatic arch or any indication of actual force capable of even a concussion.

Your claim that the woulds were insignificant were addressed in cross examination as well as the much higher qualified ME Vincent Di Maio. Furthermore, while the head wounds indicate impact, no wounds are necessary. Fear of wounds is enough and considering the testimony of John Good, he was mounted, getting pummeled and in fear for his life.

Funny. Well.. except for Zimmerman stated that "now he is running".. which prompts the " these a holes are always getting away"..

Usual misinformation. These assholes always get away was stated before Martin ran. The rest of your regurgitated gaga isn't even worth my time.


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[sear]

"For me a person who is trying to improve himself and is in better shape than he was before, even if he still isn't in optimal shape, shows me a person with more will than someone who just goes around calling fat people ******s." S #630

For me a potty-mouthed, rule-breaking maniac that gets a gun, and chases down an unarmed school boy and blocks his path from candy store to refuge, forces a confrontation, and shoots him dead doesn't deserve such flattery.

Calling Z a p is an insult to felines around the world, and possibly an insult to catfish as well.

 

[Salsassin]

View attachment 67218620
How naïve!
We know that the armed choir boy you call "Zimmerman" can be trusted verbatim, simply because he said so?

Zimmerman can be trusted because the recording shows lack of sounds of wind, heavy breathing or labored talking. Which contradicts your BS claim he went around the block and cur him off.

In psychology your approach is called "bias confirmation", though it does also include elements of conclusion first "reasoning".

It's confirmation bias nitwit, and don't confuse your googling for actual studies in psychology or law. You show more confirmation bias than he does.[/QUOTE]
"ANY TRAINED FIGHTER"? Even sumo-wrestlers?[/QUOTE]

Sumo wrestlers have not done well in MMA for a reason. They can stick to their very limited traditional art. And even Sumo wrestlers have significant muscle mass under that fat. To compare, bodybuilders have approximately 45 lbs. more fat-free mass than non athletes, while sumo wrestlers have more than 65 lbs. more fat-free mass than untrained people of the same height. So even if they have a body fat percentage of 30% they also have much more muscle mass. Obviously not the case with Zimmerman. You are so predictable.

The more conventional standard I'm familiar with is "BMI" (body mass index).

But for an accurate assessment of muscle mass to fat, density would be the obvious standard of quantification, as we know the density differential between muscle and fat.

The more reliable gauge would be to contrast the naked dry weight of a human body, in contrast with the accurately measured volume.
The latter might be done with laser interferometry. But the more obvious method would be simple water displacement.

The formula for density is mass / volume. Without accurate values for both parameters, your standard is by scientific standards, bull
ogna.

LMAO. How long did it take you to google that BS to try to sound knowledgeable. We know what the trainer said and that is more than enough to tell us he had body fat at around 15 to 20% while athletes are 6 to 13% pushing it. And at 5'7 and between 190 and 200 lbs Zimmerman was walking around at a BMI of 30 which is obese.

Go back and Google up another storm and entertain is some more.



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[Salsassin]

A grownass "man", who was part of something like this is a *****, regardless of BMI.

What, defending himself from a thug who thought he was a tough badass? I'll take someone you qualify as a ***** who tries to help his community over a thug who is only a parasite to the community.


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[Salsassin]

For me a potty-mouthed, rule-breaking maniac that gets a gun, and chases down an unarmed school boy and blocks his path from candy store to refuge, forces a confrontation, and shoots him dead doesn't deserve such flattery.

Calling Z a p is an insult to felines around the world, and possibly an insult to catfish as well.

Oh ouch the pottymouthedness of calling burglars assholes. The rest of your post is just a continuation of your psychotropic delusion.


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[Fenton Lum]

What, defending himself from a thug who thought he was a tough badass? I'll take someone you qualify as a ***** who tries to help his community over a thug who is only a parasite to the community.


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This thug/parasite who thought he was a tough badass murdered an unarmed kid.

 

[sear]

"the recording shows lack of sounds of wind, heavy breathing or labored talking. Which contradicts your BS claim he went around the block and cur him off." S #635

Excellent!

Then why did Spd specifically inquire AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok

SOMEthing tipped the dispatcher off.

No need for me to speculate, as you have all the answers. So you please tell us. How did the Spd dispatcher know that that specific question at that specific time was appropriate?

"Which contradicts your BS claim he went around the block and cur him off." S #635

This is not my graphic.

View attachment 67218493

I didn't draw it.
My drone didn't photograph it.
I've never been to Sanford.
I've never been to Florida (though I've been invited).

"Which contradicts your BS claim he went around the block and cur him off." S #635

It actually contradicts YOUR BS claim that he didn't. I can easily understand why you'd play the potty-mouth card in that circumstance.

"If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em w/ B.S."

Clearly you have chosen the latter.

BTW I downloaded the graphic at the same time I downloaded the transcript I've been quoting for years.
I know of no forensic evidence that BOTH are not accurate. If you do, please post it. If not, please stop cussing in vain. Your vulgar vocabulary is an inadequate substitute for forceful self-expression.

 

[Salsassin]

And so does weight, yep.. just weight. that's why they have weightclasses in sports like wrestling and judo, and boxing and MMA.

Weight only serves as a proxy for size. On average,the higher weight classes were bigger men.

I was a college level wrestler.. I was about 3% bodyfat.. at 150 pounds.

I wasn't going to beat on the mat a guy weighing 215 with 10% bodyfat.

I see you failed to mention your relative sizes. How tall waa he compared to you?

You can keep claiming that its the case and weight doesn't matter.. but you are wrong.

I see you conveniently fail to mention that both your body fat measurements were within the athletic parameters and for such a difference in weight he has to be larger than you weight or no weight.

A YEAR ago.. perhaps. A year of training 3 x week diligently.. is a different story.

Nope. Zimmerman was still obese and still no wheee close to an athlete like a young football player who liked to fight.


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[Salsassin]

As with everything in our legal system, it depends upon how the law can be twisted, and who the law is dealing with. Different stokes for different folks has always been at play in american jurisprudence.

Considering Zimmerman was a person of color who had been harassed by police before. Your victimism rings hollow.


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[Salsassin]

This thug/parasite who thought he was a tough badass murdered an unarmed kid.

Self defense is not murder and neighborhood watch is not thig. Only in your confuzed world is it.

 

[sear]

"Considering Zimmerman was a person of color who had been harassed by police before. Your victimism rings hollow." S #641

piffle

It is profoundly naïve to presume minority status in the U.S. is a simple binary. Know it or not, believe it or not, like it or not, admit it or not; there are social status rivalries even within what your standard would class "minorities".

"Self defense is not murder and neighborhood watch is not thig." S #642

And thus it was not self-defense.

And Z was not Neighborhood Watch that night, for he violated too many of their standards to qualify.

And though NW may not be a "thig" what is?

 

[jaeger19]

Your claim that the woulds were insignificant were addressed in cross examination as well as the much higher qualified ME Vincent Di Maio.

No they weren't.

Fear of wounds is not enough under the law.. you have to have a reasonable fear of being in imminent danger of death or grave injury. There is no evidence of that here.

the eye witness testimony is spotty and inconclusive. At some point Martin was likely on top. "mounted" .. no evidence of such, and in fear of his life? Mr Goode certainly could not be testifying that he knew Zimmermans state of mind. Unless you think he is psychic?

Usual misinformation. These assholes always get away was stated before Martin ran

He was directly referring to Martin.

 

[jaeger19]

Weight only serves as a proxy for size. On average,the higher weight classes were bigger men.

Nope.. I was the about the same height as our heavyweight.

I see you conveniently fail to mention that both your body fat measurements were within the athletic parameters and for such a difference in weight he has to be larger than you weight or no weight.

Umm no.

Nope. Zimmerman was still obese and still no wheee close to an athlete like a young football player who liked to fight.

Nope.. sorry but thats just not the case.

 

[Salsassin]

Nope.. I was the about the same height as our heavyweight.

Sorry, but I find your coloquial credibility shot by this point. Post a picture of both of you. And as I said with before, both were active athletes within the confines of normal athlete bodyfat. Actually, you were 1% below by your account.

Umm no.
Nope.. sorry but thats just not the case.

Denial is not an argument. No because is.

 

[Salsassin]

piffle

It is profoundly naïve to presume minority status in the U.S. is a simple binary. Know it or not, believe it or not, like it or not, admit it or not; there are social status rivalries even within what your standard would class "minorities".

Piffle sniffle wiffel
I am well aware of the multiple levels of social hierarchies in this nation. With Native Americans being on the bottom with the lowest levels of poverty, homicides by Other and death by cop. So don't even attempt your whitesplaining of minority experiences in this country. Zimmerman's mom was half Native American and Half Afrodescent, in your colloquial wording, Black. She didn't have a lick of White in her. So Zimmerman was as White as Obama, and his other side was based on the two most historically victimized groups in this continent, Black and Indian for your parlance. Furthermore, George was raised identifying with that AfroPeruvian ancestry and was highly involved in the African American community since childhood. So your claim of racism is a bunch of piffle paffle bullshyte batshyte.

And thus it was not self-defense.

Only in your delusional mind is being mounted and pounded on not a reason for self-defense.

Z was not Neighborhood Watch that night, for he violated too many of their standards to qualify.

Your fantasy regulations for neighborhood watch not relevant to the neighborhood watch in Sanford Florida mean jackshyte. In Z's neighborhood watch program see and report was the norm, and he followed that to a T. Literally.

And though NW may not be a "thig" what is?

Only a moron would not know that I was trying to type thug, and only a pitiful grammarian would focus on it.

Nitpick compensates for his general weakness as a debater by pouncing on errors, however irrelevant to the discussion, and using them to discredit the enemy.

Grammarian usually has little to contribute to a discussion and possesses few effective weapons. To compensate, he will point out minor errors in spelling and grammar.

Furthermore, Trayvon Martin, With his drug usage, vandalism, fights, stolen goods,and attempts at purchasing illegal guns, was well on his way to becoming a thug. Go ahead and check spelling to show how much of a wienie you are.

 

[Salsassin]

No they weren't. Fear of wounds is not enough under the law.. you have to have a reasonable fear of being in imminent danger of death or grave injury. There is no evidence of that here.

Not my fault that you can't understand a simple tenet of self-defense. The "Superficial wounds" On the back of the head were enough to indicate that he was impacting the back of the head, and that made his fear of passing out due to them credible. Furthermore, the uncontested claim that Martin was reaching for his gun, creates a reasonable doubt for self-defense enough to be acquitted.

The eye witness testimony is spotty and inconclusive. At some point Martin was likely on top. "mounted" .. no evidence of such, and in fear of his life? Mr Goode certainly could not be testifying that he knew Zimmermans state of mind. Unless you think he is psychic?

John Good's testimony is only spotty and inconclusive in the mind of a person with clear confirmation bias. John testified that during the whole time that he was out there, Martin was on top, and he described him as mounted. He also clearly describes Zimmerman on the bottom and screaming. High-pitched screams that were recorded on the 911 calls. Enough to presume a reasonable belief of fear for his life.

He was directly referring to Martin.

That is an unproven assumption. At the time Martin wasn't running yet, and Zimmerman could've been talking about the situation in general.

 

[Excon]

First.. there is no evidence that Zimmermans head was "slammed to the ground".. None.. zilch.

This is you deliberately lying.
Zimmerman's testimony supported by two impact lacerations, multiple impact abrasions, bruising and swelling and is evidence of having your head slammed.
And in this case, it is undisputed evidence.
So stop lying.

the evidence shows that he suffered insignificant injuries.

1. And again. Does not matter to the fact that the act of having your head slammed is one that can result in great bodily injury or loss of life.
2. That is not what the evidence shows, that is a ME's opinion. An opinion that was shown to be incredible on cross and and opinion that was destroyed by rebuttal of an actual expert.
That you continue to spout your nonsense in light of what the actual expert said, just shows your thoughts on this are as convoluted as they are wrong.

He did not suffer a concussion.. he did not have facial edema, fractures of the zygomatic arch or any indication of actual force capable of even a concussion.

You are arguing nonsense to the facts of the case.
You do not know if he actually had a concussion.
You do not know if he had facial edema or not even though his eyes were raccooned.
He does not have to have a fracture of the zygomatic arch either.
You are arguing nonsense that you want to believe instead of the relevant facts of this case.

None of that is required for him to use deadly self-defense. Period. Getting your head slammed is sufficient reason to use deadly force.

Second.. a bag of radios constitutes a deadly weapon. So its not "the same".

You are ignoring reality again.
The judge made it clear that the act of having it swung at your head is an act that can be cause to use deadly force in return.
It is an act that can cause great bodily injury or loss of life. The same as getting your head slammed.

It is the act.

You can not sit there and argue that having your head slammed into the ground is not one that can not cause great bodily injury or loss of life.
If you think you can, that is delusional thinking.

Well.. I never said it did.. I said it constituted a THREAT which it does.

1. JFC! You do not even know what you have argued.
Yes you do say that. But glad to see you admit you are wrong.
2. No. Being followed at a distance for the very short duration and distance does not constitute an actual threat. It takes mote than that.

It was dark.. and you have no idea on either account.

More deliberate dishonesty.
He was not followed down a dark ally.
That is your made up bs. The lighting conditions does not matter to your false statement.
And yes we do know what I stated. Trayvon did not Zimmerman was armed as he did not tell Rachel he was, nor is it likely that he would have approached Zimmerman or came out of hiding if he knew he was armed. So stop with the made up nonsense.

Nope.. this is me understanding the evidence.

iLOL Hilarious.
No it is not.
You never have understood the evidence.
That is why you complain the prosecutor and jury didn't get it right.

Funny. Well.. except for Zimmerman stated that "now he is running".. which prompts the " these a holes are always getting away".. I mean certainly when you are pissed and angry at someone and want to "attack" them.. what you do is run away from them and try to "get away"..

Sir.. your absurdity knows no bounds.

Funny is right. Absurd is right. Your take on this is as hilariously funny as it is absurd.
You are conflating two separate things that happened at different times.

His skipping off had nothing to do with what Zimmerman said to the call-taker.
And his skipping off shows he is not frightened or threatened.

You then ignore the fact that Trayvon later did in fact return and attack showing he was not frightened or threatened.
Again, pissed is the only thing we know Trayvon was by the evidence. And being pissed coincides with his returning and attacking.

Zimmerman stated he was running.

And later clarified that it was in a skipping like fashion.

Actually circling would indicate trying to avoid the person while keeping tabs on where the threat is.

iLOL Wrong as usual.





Continued below.

 

[Excon]

Conjecture on your part. "Lying in wait" was more likley "hiding".. as the evidence indicates.

Your version is not what the evidence indicates.
There are only two possible options given the evidence.
One is lying in wait (which includes hiding). Duh!
The other is returning.

Rachel testified that he confronted Zimmerman first that he turned around to do so.
She also made it clear he was at the back of his house.
We know the attack happened at the T where Zimmerman said it did and this is confirmed by the lost the items in his hand when he was attacked.

You trying to spin that and make it something else that does not conform to the known evidence is hilarious.

Well other than the evidence of him running away.. that Zimmerman states happened. and his knowledge that he was being followed down a dark street by a stranger.

There you go ignoring the evidence again.
In a skipping like fashion. That shows he was not frightened.
What he was was pissed and we know that from what he told Rachel.
His returning and attacking also confirms that he was not frightened and just confirms he was pissed.


All you ever have is convoluted nonsense.

Nope. We have been over this. The evidence is that Zimmerman pursued him.. Heck.. he states he is pursuing him.

A reply that is as wrong and dishonest as it is wrong headed.
There was no pursuit.
He did not say he pursued him.

He agreed he was following, and that was only for a very short distance and duration.

And yes, we have already been through this. You are wrong on all counts. Period, you can not change that or thee fact that Zimmerman was found not guilty.

You mean other than the fact that Zimmerman was not at his car or in his car when the altercation happened.

Another reply that is as stupid as it is dishonest and has absolutely nothing to do with what you are replying to.
You are apparently arguing for arguments sake and nothing more.
As every one can see you are replying to the a statement made about his following which was done outside of his vehicle. Duh!
And there was no intent to capture Trayvon so you have no pursuit as you absurdly argue.
It was following for a very short duration and distance that was stopped almost as soon as it began.
That is when Zimmerman went isn't a different direction than the one Trayvon went and you have no evidence that says other wise.

Correction.. Zimmermans personal trainer as a defense witness.. testified.. that.. in one year of training three times a week diligently.. in an MMA gym.. with a professional. boxing and jiu jitsu.. Zimmerman "didn;t know how to punch or grapple"..

:lamo That is not a correction.
iLOL
Diligence does not speak to the extent that training took or what he actually learned. Not proficient does.

That he was diligent in attendance does not mean any training took or that he actually learned anything. The statements about not being proficient are indications of his level of training.
He was not proficient at these things. Period.
All you have its that Zimmerman showed up and was relegated to shadow boxing because he couldn't do much of anything else.

Hmmm.. if you believe that one.. I got some ocean front property in Utah to sell you.

Based on all your proffered beliefs it is you who would buy such property. Must be why you think other people are stupid enough to fall for the same thing you did.

Of course he could.. he was trying to save his life from a person with a deadly weapon.. who ultimately killed him with it. He has every right to claim self defense..

Wrong as usual. No he couldn't and no he wasn't.
The gun did not come into play until the very last seconds of the incident. That is the evidence. Learn it and stop making ridiculous arguments that not even a prosecutor would make.

Absurd.. he referred to martin as an A hole that was always getting away. He positively was referring to Martin..

Yes your comment is as absurd as it is stupid. "These/they" is not a specific. "These/they" is a generalization to the situation.
He was not referring to Trayvon. He made a statement of resignation to the situation as a whole. Nothing more.
Arguing otherwise is nothing but foolishness and desperation.

Most assuredly they do. he has no duty to retreat.. none. He was pursued.. no matter how you try to twist it. Down a dark street in the rain by an unknown man.. that constitutes a threat.. and ultimately it was a deadly threat.

Wrong on all counts and totally ignorant of what the law says.
And no, there was no pursuit as proven by the definition, no matter how you try to twist it. There was a following for a very short duration and distance.




Continued below.