Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Revisited

[PIPEWRENCH]

Calling 911 does not make one a slave obliged to do what the call center person says.

:shrug:

No they are not. They usually give good advice that should be followed if unsure about something. However they are not on the scene and sound advice from miles away may not be good advice for the situation at hand. It is still the person on the scene that has to weigh the advice and decide.

I know as MP we had procedure that should be followed in most situations. However if procedure will cause harm to someone or the officer then it is the officers discretion to decide what action other than procedure is needed in each particular situation. It would be nice if we had days or even weeks as well as panel of experts to advice us on every move we make out there in the real world. Unfortunately what takes them months to decide what was or wasn't the right choice is usually a split second decision for the person on the scene. Plus on the scene you are not sitting at a table analyzing the situation. On the scene there could be smoke, fire, people injured and screaming, your adrenaline is pumped, potential good guys and bad guys can be anywhere or every where forcing you to make hundreds of snap decisions with little or no information available. It is only a matter of time before anyone makes a mistake. Then it is time to crucify that person by the armchair know it all.

 

[jaeger19]

Well, no. You're the one who set the "walking down the street" scenario. It is simply a statistical fact that any individual black is more likely to be a criminal than any individual white.

And statistically, I have way more to fear being victimized by a white person.

 

[sear]

"The statistical pools are strictly US African Americans and US whites. It's not a matter of racism" JH #400

When it's a distinction of race, it's racism, by definition *.
Affirmative Action is racist, even if liberals approve it.

"it's simply a statistical fact that a higher percentage of blacks are convicted of crimes." JH

Holy Frick in %$#@ !!!

Even if true, that does not PROVE Blacks are intrinsically more criminally disposed.
It may merely mean Blacks are intrinsically more prone to CONVICTION.

The challenge was about the risk that a "Black" was more of a risk than a "White". Conviction rates & ratios may, or may not be relevant to that.

* racism
[rey-siz-uh m]
Examples
Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

 

[Salsassin]

Yeah.. sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. Under the law.. he is required to provide evidence or proof that he was reasonably justified in using deadly force. THATS the law..

No, it is not. In Florida, for an immunity hearing the standard of proof for the defendant is preponderance of the evidence. If it goes to court and he claims self defense the standard is reasonable doubt.
http://www.4dca.org/Sept 2006/09-13-06/4D05-3691.op.pdf

Simply "articulating what happened" is not sufficient proof.

It is if it creates a reasonable doubt in the jury.
The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt for the prosecutor and reasonable doubt for the defendant that self defense was cause.

Zimmerman was tried for murder in the 2nd degree and the lesser offense of manslaughter. The prosecutors failed to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt on both charges.

As Zimmerman did not invoke the immunity clause, Martin's family has the option of suing Zimmerman for tort in civil court with a preponderance of evidence standard for the plaintiff. And Zimmerman can similarly invoke the immunity clause and have a preponderance of the evidence standard for himself. It is quite telling that the Martin family and Crump have not sued. They believe they would loose in both cases. For them it was about the money they could make in settlements with the HOA and in the court of public opinion, book deals, presentations, etc.

This court case has made Crump and the Martin family wealthy indeed. They don't want to go to court and loose under a preponderance of the evidence standard and loose all that income.

Your premise that one simply has to articulate to the court what happened and that's good enough is absurd.

If that were true.. Self defense would be the main defense that all assaults, murders cases wo"why did you kill your wife?"

"She came at me with a knife and tried to stab me"

Well then... you are free to go....

No

Are we talking about the immunity clause or police letting a person go?

For the police, usually the standard is that the evidence at hand seems to corroborate the self defense claims of the killer, and there is no available evidence ar hand to contradict the suspect's claims. An arrest starts the speedy trial right clause and gives police limited time to investigate. Police will not arrest unless there is significant evidence to contradict self defense claim of suspect or lack of evidence to corroborate the suspect's statement. Not arresting prematurely gives law enforcement time to investigate thoroughly.

In Zimmerman's case he had wounds that showed he was attacked, he had a present state statment that he was screaming corroborated by 911 calls and by the statement of an eyewitness who stated that Martin was the one on top beating up Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was screaming for help. It was the corroborating evidence that caused Zimmerman not to be arrested.

If you are talking immunity, yes, it is the defendant's burden of proof to show self defense by preponderance of the evidence.

Why.. talk about trying to "spin".. so he didn't follow him because as he walked.. he drove his car to keep observing him.. but according to you that's not following... :roll:

Zimmerman definitely followed in his car and on foot for about 30 seconds until the dispatcher suggested it wasn't necessary. Perfectly legal and what is asked of neighborhood watch, to report anything suspicious or out of place. An unknown Person staring into the window of a house of a known neighbor is enough to be suspicious or out of place.

If there were two men in a bar.. and one leaves and the other says to bartender... "that A hole.. the always get away"... then gets up and purposely follows the fellow out of the bar..

And they end up in a scrap?... the statements of the person following would certainly establish intent.

Correct, because it is singular and specific. 'THAT Ahole.' But a generic statement of 'These AHoles' is not enough, as it is a statement that applies to a larger group not particular to a specific individual.

In Zimmerman's case he was talking about repeated burglaries where people got away.

 

[Vox]

Actually.. when exposed to the light.. you scurry.

Statistically, you are far far far more likely to be a victim of a white person. That's just statistical fact.

I get that you want to distract from that fact.. but that's the case.


Your fear of young black men is completely unjustified statistically.

But it certainly furthers racist attitudes however.

LOL!

LOL and LOL! You really should resign before you look even more ridiculous.

With facts like yours, you should be scurrying.

Your logic is as false as it is foolish.

You make as much sense as the people who say the average person has almost zero chance of being attacked by a shark.

True......until that average person swims in shark-infested waters.

So let the average white guy wander into the black ghetto and watch his chances rise.

Let him live anywhere NEAR the black ghetto and watch his chances rise.

Sharks and young black men are NEVER dangerous.......until you're around them.

:ind:

 

[sear]

"what is asked of neighborhood watch" S #404

Please do not elevate Zimmerman to a status he has not earned in this case.

Neighborhood Watch.org has specific written / published standards.

Adhere to them all, and one may qualify as "Neighborhood Watch".

http://www.usaonwatch.org/

But Zimmerman violated multiple Neighborhood Watch.org standards,
as well as Sanford police dispatch guidance.

a) Therefore referring to Zimmerman that night as Neighborhood Watch is inaccurate.
That night Zimmerman was an armed thug, a vigilante.

b) Had Z adhered to the standards set by Neighborhood Watch, and the Sanford police,
TM would almost certainly have lived to see another sunrise,
or died in his sleep of a marijuana overdose.

 

[Jack Hays]

When it's a distinction of race, it's racism, by definition *.
Affirmative Action is racist, even if liberals approve it.

Holy Frick in %$#@ !!!

Even if true, that does not PROVE Blacks are intrinsically more criminally disposed.
It may merely mean Blacks are intrinsically more prone to CONVICTION.

The challenge was about the risk that a "Black" was more of a risk than a "White". Conviction rates & ratios may, or may not be relevant to that.

* racism
[rey-siz-uh m]
Examples
Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

I never said blacks are more disposed to crime.

 

[Jack Hays]

And statistically, I have way more to fear being victimized by a white person.

That was not the scenario you posited.

 

[Salsassin]

Right...:roll:
Dude.. come on. Martin "referenced fighting in texts"

which amounts to a confession of illegal activity. Asd trying to purchase a gun illegally on two occasions in the prior month to the incident.

Zimmerman trained for a year in MMA 3 x week.

No evidence of that. He trained when he could around a full time job. No one has claimed he had a consistent routine. What has been said is that he did some cardio boxing and didn't know how to throw a punch and that he worked in the ju-jitsu classes when he could.

Zimmerman had two prior charges of VIOLENCE.. one with a POLICE OFFICER.

Not true. He had one charge of violence which was dropped as eye witnesses stated that he only pushed the hands of an undercover officer away. He was downgraded to resisting arrest without violence and then the charges were dropped fully.

In the domestic violence scenario there were no charges and there were mutual restraining orders. Suazo, the ex claimed her dog jumped up and bit Zimmerman in the face, Zimmerman said it was her nails. Four parrallel wounds down Zimmerman's cheek corroborrated his version of the events. Both these incidents were in 2005, over 8 years before the Martin incident and this not a pattern of relevancy. Martin, on the other hand had various troubling activities documented by the school and his own phone within months of the incident.

The evidence points to racism being involved.

actually, it doesn't as the FDLE, DOJ and the FBI couldn't find anything that might corroborate claims of racism.

 

[Salsassin]

Please do not elevate Zimmerman to a status he has not earned in this case.

Neighborhood Watch.org has specific written / published standards.

Adhere to them all, and one may qualify as "Neighborhood Watch".

You are aware that there are multiple neighborhood watch programs, right?

http://www.usaonwatch.org/

But Zimmerman violated multiple Neighborhood Watch.org standards,
as well as Sanford police dispatch guidance.

a) Therefore referring to Zimmerman that night as Neighborhood Watch is inaccurate.
That night Zimmerman was an armed thug, a vigilante.

Wrong. He followed the instuctions given to him by the Neighborhood Watch program run by the Samford police to a tee and followed instructions of the dispatcher as well.

b) Had Z adhered to the standards set by Neighborhood Watch, and the Sanford police,
TM would almost certainly have lived to see another sunrise,
or died in his sleep of a marijuana overdose.

Not really. Once he chose to leave the safety of going into hos house and chose to assault someone, he put his life at risk.

 

[Salsassin]

As far as risk of death by strangers, I'll just go by the FBI records.

Easy Access to the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports: 1980-2014

Go back to previous page

Selecting:
Race of victim
White, Black
Victim-Offender relationship
Stranger
Race of oldest offender
White, Black

Race of victim by Race of oldest offender for United States

Count White Offender Black Offender Total
White Victim 28,462 13,301 41,763
Black Victim 3,795 25,506 29,301
Total 32,256 38,807 71,064
Suggested citation: Puzzanchera, C., Chamberlin, G., and Kang, W. (2016). "Easy Access to the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports: 1980-2014." Online. Available: Easy Access to the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports

Data source: Federal Bureau of Investigation. Supplementary Homicide Reports 1980-2014 [machine-readable data files].

 

[jaeger19]

No, it is not. In Florida, for an immunity hearing the standard of proof for the defendant is preponderance of the evidence. If it goes to court and he claims self defense the standard is reasonable doubt.
http://www.4dca.org/Sept 2006/09-13-06/4D05-3691.op.pdf

Yes he does. As I stated though.. he does not have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Read what you linked to.

It is if it creates a reasonable doubt in the jury.
The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt for the prosecutor and reasonable doubt for the defendant that self defense was cause.

Wrong. if that were the case.. then there would be NO burden on the defendant. Simply verbalizing.. I had to do it.. doesn't cut it.

This court case has made Crump and the Martin family wealthy indeed. They don't want to go to court and loose under a preponderance of the evidence standard and loose all that income.

Or more likely.. they know that they aren't going to convince a jury that Zimmerman was guilty and martin not a "thug" or "wannabe thug".. not matter the evidence.

Are we talking about the immunity clause or police letting a person go?

Neither.. we are talking about whether you go to trial and be convicted.

Zimmerman definitely followed in his car and on foot for about 30 seconds until the dispatcher suggested it wasn't necessary

Supposition on your part.

Correct, because it is singular and specific. 'THAT Ahole.' But a generic statement of 'These AHoles' is not enough, as it is a statement that applies to a larger group not particular to a specific individual.

Except he used in direct reference to martin in context.. he was not using it as a non specific. We know exactly who he was labeling an A hole.

It was not a random comment. it was in direct connection with Martin.

 

[jaeger19]

LOL!

LOL and LOL! You really should resign before you look even more ridiculous.

With facts like yours, you should be scurrying.

Your logic is as false as it is foolish.

You make as much sense as the people who say the average person has almost zero chance of being attacked by a shark.

True......until that average person swims in shark-infested waters.

So let the average white guy wander into the black ghetto and watch his chances rise.

Let him live anywhere NEAR the black ghetto and watch his chances rise.

Sharks and young black men are NEVER dangerous.......until you're around them.

:ind:

Sure.. and let a black person or any person live near a white trailer park and watch his chances arise. In fact ... in the vast vast vast part of America.. your chances of being victimized by a white person are far more likely.

 

[jaeger19]

That was not the scenario you posited.

Yes it was.

 

[Jack Hays]

Yes it was.

From your #350:

Walking down the street.. I have more to fear from a white person than I do from a black person.

Statistically invalid.

 

[jaeger19]

which amounts to a confession of illegal activity. Asd trying to purchase a gun illegally on two occasions in the prior month to the incident.
.

Was he convicted of any charges.. heck.. were any charges brought. And fighting is not illegal. Zimmerman fought in practice in MMA.

No evidence of that. He trained when he could around a full time job. No one has claimed he had a consistent routine. What has been said is that he did some cardio boxing and didn't know how to throw a punch and that he worked in the ju-jitsu classes when he could.

Actually.. there is evidence of that.. in fact.. A physician that treated him testified.

Folgate said she had treated Zimmerman for previous injuries before. She first encountered him in August 2011, and Zimmerman indicated that he had "difficulty with falling asleep and exercising with MMA, but that has not helped."

She said she also treated Zimmerman in September 2011, and at that time he indicated he was involoved in mixed martial arts three days a week.

 

[Cigar]

Sure.. and let a black person or any person live near a white trailer park and watch his chances arise. In fact ... in the vast vast vast part of America.. your chances of being victimized by a white person are far more likely.

In my eyes, there's not a big different between Ghettos and Trailer Parks, but are people just trying to survive. Both have Good and Bad People who live there, just like any other neighborhood.

 

[Vox]

Sure.. and let a black person or any person live near a white trailer park and watch his chances arise. In fact ... in the vast vast vast part of America.. your chances of being victimized by a white person are far more likely.

Just like in the vast, vast, vast part of America.......your chances of being eaten by a shark are zero.

Sharks and black men are never dangerous.......until you're around them.

Statistically, young black men are the most dangerous humans in America.

:ind:

 

[Vox]

In my eyes, there's not a big different between Ghettos and Trailer Parks, but are people just trying to survive. Both have Good and Bad People who live there, just like any other neighborhood.

How often do you hear of drive-by shootings in a trailer park?

How often in the black ghetto?

I thought so.

Reason: Young black men.

:ind:

 

[Cigar]

How often do you hear of drive-by shootings in a trailer park?

How often in the black ghetto?

I thought so.

Reason: Young black men.

:ind:

How often are they reported, almost never. How often are their arrest, everyday. How do I know? I have plenty of LEOs in my family and we all know what goes down. I remeber a time, Crack wasn't a big concern for White People, but now Meth is somehow a big deal.

Why? Young and Old White People

 

[jaeger19]

Not true. He had one charge of violence which was dropped as eye witnesses stated that he only pushed the hands of an undercover officer away. He was downgraded to resisting arrest without violence and then the charges were dropped fully.

In the domestic violence scenario there were no charges and there were mutual restraining orders. Suazo, the ex claimed her dog jumped up and bit Zimmerman in the face, Zimmerman said it was her nails. Four parrallel wounds down Zimmerman's cheek corroborrated his version of the events. Both these incidents were in 2005, over 8 years before the Martin incident and this not a pattern of relevancy. Martin, on the other hand had various troubling activities documented by the school and his own phone within months of the incident.
.

Actually there was enough that the judge issued a restraining order on him. And it certainly is a pattern of violence. Which by the way he has continued.

Martin had little to indicate any "pattern of violence".. no arrest records.. no violent arrest records or criminal charges.

actually, it doesn't as the FDLE, DOJ and the FBI couldn't find anything that might corroborate claims of racism.

sure it does.. racism was involved from the very first when they treated Martin like a thug and failed to investigate Zimmerman and then failed to charge him.

 

[Vox]

How often are they reported, almost never. How often are their arrest, everyday.

That's contradictory.

If almost never reported there wouldn't be arrests every day.

What do you mean?

 

[Cigar]

Someone has the need to feel superior today, :lamo

 

[sear]

"I never said blacks are more disposed to crime." JH #407

But the notion I was refuting was the notion that when being followed,
the statistical risk is different, depending on the race of the follower.

"He trained when he could around a full time job. No one has claimed he had a consistent routine. What has been said is that he did some cardio boxing and didn't know how to throw a punch and that he worked in the ju-jitsu classes when he could." S #409

And yet even when armed with a deadly weapon, Zimmerman STILL got beat up by a school boy!
What a complete $#@!-up Zimmerman is!!

"You are aware that there are multiple neighborhood watch programs, right?" S #410

Right, perhaps one for every town in the U.S., though candidly I've never counted them.
It's part of the reason I posted the SPECIFIC URL for ONE specific NW; though I will confess,
the one I cited does seem to be above the median in professional organization.

But in any case, so what?
I'm not aware of any legitimate Neighborhood Watch organization anywhere in the U.S. that endorses:
- patrolling alone
- patrolling alone while armed with a loaded gun
- forcing a confrontation, particularly in the dark, and particularly in plain (civilian) clothes
- approaching subjects without performing proper police protocols, including identifying ones self.

If you have a URL to any legitimate Neighborhood Watch in the U.S. that endorses any or all of that, please post it.

But the URL I posted has standards written as they are for a reason; they're to help promote a safe, and effective patrol.
I'd be ASTOUNDED if there's an NW anywhere in the U.S. that applies substantially different, meaning more dangerous protocols.

The evidence points to racism being involved.
"actually, it doesn't as the FDLE, DOJ and the FBI couldn't find anything that might corroborate claims of racism." S #409

What else could POSSIBLY have aroused Z's initial, & continuing suspicion of TM?
There's been burglaries in the area. EXCELLENT!!
What else?
Z told Sanford police dispatch TM looked Black, and was wearing a dark hoodie.
In addition, in Z's own words:

This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about. ...
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got
something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is. ...
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away.

Transcript of George Zimmerman's Call to the Police

Based on these comments Z made to Sanford police dispatch about TM, how would you characterize Z's attitude toward TM?

And what were the grounds for suspicion? That there'd been burglaries in the area?
That alone wouldn't prefer TM as a suspect over any other pedestrian in the neighborhood.
And I know of no evidence that TM was ever accused of, or suspected of any criminal conduct
or probable cause at that point that night.

None of that seemed to matter to Zimmerman.

"Wrong. He followed the instuctions given to him by the Neighborhood Watch program run by the Samford police to a tee and followed instructions of the dispatcher as well." S #410

There's no attribute here. So you're not claiming to have read this opinion, and are merely passing it along.
You're asserting it as a certitude on your own authority.

BUT !!

You could not POSSIBLY know this as a certitude unless you'd read those "instructions" (your word) fully, completely, verbatim.

And if you've done that, then it should be no problem for you to post them here, so that we can verify the validity of your claim.

And when you don't, I'll accept it as your confession that your claim is pure fabrication on your part.

And in any case, your reference was NW as run by Samford (sic) police.

BUT !!

We already know Z disregarded the Sanford police dispatch guidance about pursuit, night-stalking if you prefer, of the school boy trying to reach his father.

"Not really. Once he chose to leave the safety of going into hos house and chose to assault someone, he put his life at risk."

Your scenario is completely absurd. There is not one shred of evidence for it.

To the contrary. There's substantial evidence TM tried to AVOID any contact with Z, including Z's own report to Sanford police dispatch.

If you were right, I'd agree. But you're not, and I don't.

 

[Jack Hays]

But the notion I was refuting was the notion that when being followed,
the statistical risk is different, depending on the race of the follower.

You are illustrating the pitfall of jumping in late and uninformed. Please refer to my #415.