Thoughts on God and Gays! [W: 472]

[Daisy]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

ya murder and torture endlessly dosent seem just if god wold show up and not e such a petty vicious **** id want to be around him more

like you guys love something out of lovecraft

That is because it is not just...a person lives 70-80 years on average to perform whatever evil acts he wishes, but yet God tortures him forever? The punishment does not fit the crime now, does it?

 

[Daisy]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Moderator's Warning:

Okay, this thread is meant to be about God and gays, not about the existence or otherwise of Hell. Get back to the topic in hand. If we remain in this thread-jacking mode we may have to move the thread and or issue consequences to those who cannot stick to the topic.

Oops sorry, didn't see this until I already posted...:3oops:

 

[Anarchon]

I have heard so often that God hates Gays from the religious right. My thought is this, God made people Gay. No matter what people tell you it is not a choice. If it was, no one would be gay. So if God made people gay, and if God does not make mistakes, then how can God hate someone who is as God made him or her. Only if you think God can make mistakes, and so many of them, can you believe God hates Gay people. And if God made Gays the way they are, how can you as a religious person hate someone God made Gay.

You are touching on a bigger problem within Christian theology...the possibility that God could be both omnibenevolent and omnicient. It's not possible. It's a moot point, however, since God doesn't exist.

 

[joko104]

I have heard so often that God hates Gays from the religious right. My thought is this, God made people Gay. No matter what people tell you it is not a choice. If it was, no one would be gay. So if God made people gay, and if God does not make mistakes, then how can God hate someone who is as God made him or her. Only if you think God can make mistakes, and so many of them, can you believe God hates Gay people. And if God made Gays the way they are, how can you as a religious person hate someone God made Gay.

While I've seen video of the Westboro Baptist Church - which definitely is NOT the religious-right, I've never heard any Christian say "God hates gays." What I have heard some say is the homosexual sex is sinful and a couple say homosexuals are going to hell claiming the Bible says so. But never that "God hates gays." Ever.

 

[blarg]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

That is because it is not just...a person lives 70-80 years on average to perform whatever evil acts he wishes, but yet God tortures him forever? The punishment does not fit the crime now, does it?

im including your version of chrinty and those with endless hells ( which people who dont renounce homosexul activity can end up facing according to many peoples faith so i think that's topical) thats why i said murder

killing some one and having them be dead forever only seem to fit for peel who have killed and if you can make unkillable souls then even killing one's body is not doing permanent harm and so being killed endlessly yourself doesn't fit any crime

so i'm not seeing how the wages of sin being death are a fitting punishment and don't try to tell me its not punishment unless you also say your god is powerless to stop it

 

[roguenuke]

While I've seen video of the Westboro Baptist Church - which definitely is NOT the religious-right, I've never heard any Christian say "God hates gays." What I have heard some say is the homosexual sex is sinful and a couple say homosexuals are going to hell claiming the Bible says so. But never that "God hates gays." Ever.

Just because you've never heard it said, doesn't mean that others, besides Westboro Baptist Church doesn't say this. In fact, there were a number of preachers not so long ago who had controversies dealing with them saying things such as "you need to slap a boy's wrist if he lets it get limp (a reference to the slur that gay men are limp wristed" or the preacher who said we need to put all the gays behind fences and feed them by dropping in food so that they died out. There are several Christians who blame gays/gay marriage for natural disasters, as God's wrath. Another Christian sent up a petition to get an Amendment on the ballot in California that would make being gay itself illegal with life in prison/death as the punishment, and even included punishment for anyone who expressed support for gays, against that amendment. He did get tens of thousands of signatures for his petition (a judge had to kick out the bill as unconstitutional in its very nature).

 

[blarg]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Honestly, I'm fine with that.

Now, I also have talked to Mormons who believe that basically everyone can go to a certain level of Heaven, and you can move higher by listening to what the teachers there have to say about Jesus and God and accepting him. But you simply can't get to the higher levels without having accepted Jesus (and really the teachings of Joseph Smith) on Earth. Even if you do that, the highest levels of Heaven are reserved just for the best Mormons, who were Mormons from birth and basically elders within the church. Not sure if this is what all Mormons believe, only what the ones who lived in my apartment building in Hawaii believed. They were young missionaries.

there's no requirement in the lds church to be lds from birth to get to the top of the celestial kingdom but you do have to do everything to be a member good standing and get married in the temple while alive and i think you can still do that and get in after your dead if you don't get the chance while alive with the exception for someone who marries outside of the temple and dies before the yearlong penalty for that is up

everyone who was never offered lds teachings in life gets a shot at it if they behaved honorably enough not sure how much you have to live in line with lds values to qualify for that though

progression between the 3 kingdoms and perdition is right out not sure about moving up in the lower kingdoms but pretty sure you can't move up within the degrees of the celestial kingdom though those that qualify for the top will have to learn a lot to progress to god hood

 

[Davey]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Not true. You do not have to have sex to make a baby. Ever hear of IVF, surrogacy, or sperm donations? All those could be used to make babies.

Really? So you're saying you don't need a man and a woman to procreate? You think using test tubes is not using man and woman? Your argument is flawed big time, sorry.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Really? So you're saying you don't need a man and a woman to procreate? You think using test tubes is not using man and woman? Your argument is flawed big time, sorry.

If everyone is gay, you would still have gay men and gay women. You still have men and women, eggs and sperm still exist. So then you still can make a baby with a test tube, but have the parents all be gay (you would likely have two sets of parents but that would depend on the arrangement). My argument is not flawed. You could still make babies. In fact, if they really wanted to, they could make babies through sex, but still be gay. Ever see the movie "Almost Pregnant"? Same basic premise.

 

[Excon]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Like a kid with a magnifying glass, I tell ya what!

As usual, you have said nothing valid in reply.

If you would like to discuss the relevance of what I said in regards to what I quoted, great, if not, there is no reason to make a nonsensical reply like you did.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Wrong. They are still in the hell they created for themselves.

You do these atheists an injustice, telling them what they want to hear when you say there is no hell.

You know, an atheist wouldn't believe either of you.. so what's the big deal.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

You know, an atheist wouldn't believe either of you.. so what's the big deal.

Well, there is that, but would you want it known that you were in agreement with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Kidding aside, whether you believe me or not, mixed messages do not bring the clarity some non believers are looking for.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Well, there is that, but would you want it known that you were in agreement with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Kidding aside, whether you believe me or not, mixed messages do not bring the clarity some non believers are looking for.

In this specific incidence, the JW perspective is closer to the Jewish on than yours., in specific on the interpretation of what 'sheol' is. There are many places where the JW's tried to adopt a more Jewish perspective, and many more that they are even further from the Jewish perspective than mainstream Christianity.

However, the JW perspective, or the mainstream Christian perspective won't alter the Jewish perspective... except for the inevitable cultural interchange. If the JW's agree with either the Jewish perspective or the atheist perspective, or the hindu perspective, or whatever, it doesn't stop the other perspective from being part of the original religion.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

In this specific incidence, the JW perspective is closer to the Jewish on than yours., in specific on the interpretation of what 'sheol' is. There are many places where the JW's tried to adopt a more Jewish perspective, and many more that they are even further from the Jewish perspective than mainstream Christianity.

However, the JW perspective, or the mainstream Christian perspective won't alter the Jewish perspective... except for the inevitable cultural interchange. If the JW's agree with either the Jewish perspective or the atheist perspective, or the hindu perspective, or whatever, it doesn't stop the other perspective from being part of the original religion.

I've started another thread on this in the theology forum since we've been warned about staying on topic but I will say this: if the JWs want to be Jews then let them be Jews, at least they'd be on more solid theological ground, but since they want to call themselves Christian while ignoring (and even badmouthing) the historic creeds and teachings of the Church, they are already disqualified from being Christian, no matter who they agree with about what hell is.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

there's no requirement in the lds church to be lds from birth to get to the top of the celestial kingdom but you do have to do everything to be a member good standing and get married in the temple while alive and i think you can still do that and get in after your dead if you don't get the chance while alive with the exception for someone who marries outside of the temple and dies before the yearlong penalty for that is up

everyone who was never offered lds teachings in life gets a shot at it if they behaved honorably enough not sure how much you have to live in line with lds values to qualify for that though

progression between the 3 kingdoms and perdition is right out not sure about moving up in the lower kingdoms but pretty sure you can't move up within the degrees of the celestial kingdom though those that qualify for the top will have to learn a lot to progress to god hood

You do understand that different people within the same religion can have different beliefs on such things, correct? My mother and grandmother had differing beliefs on Purgatory. From what I've seen checking up on it, many people seem to have differing beliefs on it, regardless of what the Church's official stance on it is.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

I've started another thread on this in the theology forum since we've been warned about staying on topic but I will say this: if the JWs want to be Jews then let them be Jews, at least they'd be on more solid theological ground, but since they want to call themselves Christian while ignoring (and even badmouthing) the historic creeds and teachings of the Church, they are already disqualified from being Christian, no matter who they agree with about what hell is.

They aren't.. nor do they want to be. IF they wanted to be Jews, they can give up their belief about Jesus, and discard the New Testament.. but as long as they use the New Testament, and any kind of belief in Jesus, they are not Jews.. nor do they want to be. They have a lot of nutty beliefs.. but a lot of groups do. Their main annoyance is going door to door and annoying people, and their no transfusion belief is self destructive.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

They aren't.. nor do they want to be. IF they wanted to be Jews, they can give up their belief about Jesus, and discard the New Testament.. but as long as they use the New Testament, and any kind of belief in Jesus, they are not Jews.. nor do they want to be. They have a lot of nutty beliefs.. but a lot of groups do. Their main annoyance is going door to door and annoying people, and their no transfusion belief is self destructive.

You know what happened to the Shakers...

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

You know what happened to the Shakers...

They lived a full life, and then their cult went away. You know what happened to heaven's gate.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

They lived a full life, and then their cult went away. You know what happened to heaven's gate.

Not exactly the same thing. Besides, there were a couple of Shakers still around the last I heard.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Not exactly the same thing. Besides, there were a couple of Shakers still around the last I heard.

You are right..there are exactly 2 left... one is 60 the other is 78. Somehow, I don't see them being able to recruit people.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

You are right..there are exactly 2 left... one is 60 the other is 78. Somehow, I don't see them being able to recruit people.

As an aside, I was pretty heavily involved in photography when the Hale Bopp comet appeared in the sky, but where I lived there was so much light pollution that I had to use the fastest film I could get my hands on and push process it two stops. It turned out great and I took one to work to show it off and I got so many requests for prints I had to charge for them just to cover my costs. I'll bet I still have the negative.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

As an aside, I was pretty heavily involved in photography when the Hale Bopp comet appeared in the sky, but where I lived there was so much light pollution that I had to use the fastest film I could get my hands on and push process it two stops. It turned out great and I took one to work to show it off and I got so many requests for prints I had to charge for them just to cover my costs. I'll bet I still have the negative.

Now, that actually is pretty interesting. If you have a scan of that photo, it would actually be a pretty nifty thing to look at. I thought Hale Bopp was impressive to see, and getting some good space shots is always fun.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Now, that actually is pretty interesting. If you have a scan of that photo, it would actually be a pretty nifty thing to look at. I thought Hale Bopp was impressive to see, and getting some good space shots is always fun.

Now you've done it, I have been putting off getting a negative scanner forever. Stay tuned.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

Now you've done it, I have been putting off getting a negative scanner forever. Stay tuned.

It's a good excuse!!! I will admit, I am a space nerd, and have been ever since the apollo missions. My parents let me be up late at night to watch Neil Armstrong step on the moon.

 

[blarg]

Re: Thoughts on God and Gays!

You do understand that different people within the same religion can have different beliefs on such things, correct? My mother and grandmother had differing beliefs on Purgatory. From what I've seen checking up on it, many people seem to have differing beliefs on it, regardless of what the Church's official stance on it is.

if there in a splinter group or hiding their dissenting ideas but the lds church has official doctrines and sets up its leadership as being prophets in communication with god and will excommunicate any one found knowingly challenging that doctrine

plenty of folk beliefs persist though

was raised lds you have to tow the line as far as you know it