Thomas Sowell on the Problems for Blacks Created by the White Liberal Agenda.

[Captain Adverse]

Again, I quoted you, rebutted, and clearly asked you a follow up question.
I do not see the answer in your source material, you can feel free to quote the direct rebuttal from it, or use your own words.
Feel free to read my tagline too, it includes all the details about how much I care about your tagline.

1. You quoted a response I made to another member, not a post responding to you.

2. You did not refute anything.

3. You posed a question about out of wedlock childbirth in comparable racial groups.

#3 is the only question, and it is an aspect of victimhood ideology.

Mr. Sowell identifies "Black Redneck," also called "Ghetto" Culture. It is an internal cultural issue of avoidance of personal responsibility for sexual promiscuity, and family without marriage for profit.

Correction: This is a condition of the Victimhood process which makes it profitable to have children without spousal support, each kid without a live-in father adds to the amount of welfare the mother can collect.

It is something the specific segment of the Black Community needs to recognize as self-destructive behavior, reject, take moral responsibility for and self-correct.

 

[devildavid]

If I wasn't convinced before, I am now. :roll:

No, seriously, could you expand on that? Why and/or how is he wrong?

Blacks were not influenced by white southern redneck culture. White liberal agendas, whatever those are, have not harmed blacks.

 

[calamity]

Blacks were not influenced by white southern redneck culture.

No. They were terrorized by it.

White liberal agendas, whatever those are, have not harmed blacks.

They certainly never hung any Blacks with a rope from the nearest tree.

 

[vesper]

Thomas Sowell is one of my favorite commentators. I read his columns for years. He has written much on this subject.

"The current problems facing blacks in America owe more to the Great Society than to slavery. "---Thomas Sowell.

It comes from an article posted on NR and in newspapers across the country, Nov., 2014 titled "A Legacy of Liberalism".

During the 60's and 70's black families were migrating to the North as there were more opportunities for them. The South, the Dixiecrats, were racists and kept black folks down. But even then the black family unit was strong. There was a mama, daddy and kids. After Johnson's Great Society, the black family unit began to decay. Prior to the Great Society out of wedlock births for blacks was less than 10%. Today they are over 70%. And that is with abortion which takes more black lives than any other race. By government welfare through the Great Society, it destroyed the black family because the female can get more from all the federal programs than the father of her child could get working 40 hours a week.

But what is the outcome of not having a father part of the family unit? The price is great. A girl's first encounter of a male is with her dad. If he is worth his grain in salt, he will be the one to teach her her self-worth. He will also be an example to his sons the responsibility upon his shoulders to provide for his family.

I know this post isn't going to be popular with the feminists nor the liberals. That's alright. Truth is what it is.......

| National Review

 

[Gimmesometruth]

No, YOU wake up if you are Black and think it's anyone else's fault but your own for how you succeed or fail in life.

Goal post move, the point you are suppose to defend is that "Blacks have full access to opportunity", the vast majority DO NOT, which is not a flaw but a feature of (white) America. You are not disputing the counterpoint that economic mobility has declined (especially for Blacks), and since you are avoiding the counter, you lost the point.

There is literally no place on the planet today that can demonstrate as much freedom and opportunity as we can here in the USA.

Jingoistic rhetoric, not a counterpoint.

There are plenty of examples of successful people of color outside of sports and entertainment.

That is not a point either, I never made any sort of absolute claim that some* Blacks do not succeed. This is a non-sequitur.

If you aren't Black, then stop pushing your victimhood ideology onto Black Americans, based in guilt for the past. You aren't helping, you are just poisoning us.

weird and ironic, whining about victimizing.....while claiming to be...."poisoned".

Get over it.

 

[radcen]

Thomas Sowell is one of my favorite commentators. I read his columns for years. He has written much on this subject.

"The current problems facing blacks in America owe more to the Great Society than to slavery. "---Thomas Sowell.

It comes from an article posted on NR and in newspapers across the country, Nov., 2014 titled "A Legacy of Liberalism".

During the 60's and 70's black families were migrating to the North as there were more opportunities for them. The South, the Dixiecrats, were racists and kept black folks down. But even then the black family unit was strong. There was a mama, daddy and kids. After Johnson's Great Society, the black family unit began to decay. Prior to the Great Society out of wedlock births for blacks was less than 10%. Today they are over 70%. And that is with abortion which takes more black lives than any other race. By government welfare through the Great Society, it destroyed the black family because the female can get more from all the federal programs than the father of her child could get working 40 hours a week.

But what is the outcome of not having a father part of the family unit? The price is great. A girl's first encounter of a male is with her dad. If he is worth his grain in salt, he will be the one to teach her her self-worth. He will also be an example to his sons the responsibility upon his shoulders to provide for his family.

I know this post isn't going to be popular with the feminists nor the liberals. That's alright. Truth is what it is.......

| National Review

I'm sure the intent was to discourage laziness, but that's exactly what the policy ended up doing.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I'm sure the intent was to discourage laziness, but that's exactly what the policy ended up doing.

See, there you are again, spoutin' that good old boys BS....."why they ain't nuthin but shiftless Negros".

 

[Captain Adverse]

Goal post move, the point you are suppose to defend is that "Blacks have full access to opportunity", the vast majority DO NOT, which is not a flaw but a feature of (white) America. You are not disputing the counterpoint that economic mobility has declined (especially for Blacks), and since you are avoiding the counter, you lost the point.

(Sigh) Talk about moving the goal posts. :roll:

There is no reason to defend the statement that Black American's have access to all the opportunities any other American citizen has. It is a self-evident fact, exemplified by every individual success, most recently by the election of a Black American as President. :yes:

It is YOU who claim that Black's don't. Therefore, it is YOUR burden to show exactly which opportunities every other American has that Black Americans don't, not vice versa.

All the rest of your response was word games and self-declarations of victory, typical of the Alt-Left virtue-signaling you are so proud of.

Now feel free to read my tagline.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

(Sigh) Talk about moving the goal posts. :roll:

There is no reason to defend the statement that Black American's have access to all the opportunities any other American citizen has. It is a self-evident fact, exemplified by every individual success, most recently by the election of a Black American as President. :yes:

I have seen a slew of stupid arguments, that the election of Obama indicated the US is now "post-racial", and i usually attribute such stupidity to the need for any excuse that can be applied to cover a persons own racism.

But yer still not supporting yer argument, that blacks, ALL BLACKS, have full access to every and ANY opportunity available in the US. It is an utterly unsupportable position....but don't let that get in yer way, keep on pushing those tropes, i'm sure you got more of em in yer bag....I can tell youve been doin' this fer a long time...

It is YOU who claim that Black's don't. Therefore, it is YOUR burden to show exactly which opportunities every other American has that Black Americans don't, not vice versa.

I already did prove that negative, I cited the decline in economic mobility, it wasn't a thing you countered.....you ignored it....probably because either you know its true.....or you don't know what it means.

All the rest of your response was word games and self-declarations of victory, typical of the Alt-Left virtue-signaling you are so proud of.Now feel free to read my tagline.

Uh....you might have made "a point", but it didn't withstand the slightest scrutiny nor was there any further debate, and as a matter of fact....you FORGOT what the counterpoint was.

But take all the time you need to polish up yer thoughts, I imagine re-writes are a way of life for you.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Success is NEVER guaranteed. But always blaming personal failure on someone else is no solution. Own your life, accept the results of your own choices.

Well, you kind of did using Sowell's victim mentality against white liberals.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Well, you kind of did using Sowell's victim mentality against white liberals.

Not really. The issue is primarily enabling. If I cry "you owe me" when you really don't but you agree anyway, then you have encouraged me in my bad behavior.

If you take up the cry that you owe me and will continue to owe me, then it is simpler for me to get something free from you by merely demanding it and there is no reason for me to stop.

On the other hand if I cry "you owe me" and you insist that you don't, then I am left to my own devices to seek my fortune otherwise.

If I am then presented with routes to achieve my goals through my own efforts then I will do that, or simply do without. My choice, my consequences.

That's the gist of the argument. There are opportunities available for Black Americans to achieve any goal within their individual capabilities; but some realize they don't have to work for it because there are also options to get something without all the effort. Moreover, they feel justified because they've been told it is owed to them simply because of who they are.

 

[D_NATURED]

Wrong. Completely wrong, and a complete absorption of the victimhood lie.

Yes, there were problems in our society from it's inception. Problems that lasted in one form or another right up to the final gasps of the separate but equal efforts in the 60's and early 70's.

But our society is nothing if not highly adaptable; and we've come a long way in the last 50 years. There have been two full generations after mine who were born and grew up in this new society, who have never experienced institutional racism on either the giving or receiving side.

There are also many, many examples of success stories. The failures are existing in the Ghetto culture Mr. Sowell is talking about. The culture that contains problems caused by rejecting marriage and family, seeks the get-rich-quick and die-young Gangsta lifestyle of drugs, guns, and song; that rejects education as a waste of time, that harasses and denigrates any Black who tries to work and advance in the system set up for that purpose.

IMO this has been an outgrowth of White Guilt, and Victimhood Ideology. IMO this is exacerbated by opportunists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who don't represent the ideals of real leaders like Mr. King and Malcolm X. IMO, this has to stop if Black Americans want to succeed and assimilate.

Everyone knows it takes longer to build something up than to tear it down. Objectively, four hundred years were spent tearing down the identities and culture of slaves. What on earth makes you think they can build it up, even with help, in fifty?

I hope you are naïve and not in denial, that you are ignorant and not apathetic. So you guys think you can flip the assimilation switch, after all of this time of forced division, and black people are supposed to forgive and forget? A lot was taken from them but their memories weren't one of them. As each generation learned the way their relatives were treated, the resentment is renewed to some degree and I, being a moral human, acknowledge that more time is needed for these changes to occur.

I'm glad that you and yours have generously forgiven yourselves for your lapses of compassion. Please forgive black people if they don't.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Not really. The issue is primarily enabling. If I cry "you owe me" when you really don't but you agree anyway, then you have encouraged me in my bad behavior.

If you take up the cry that you owe me and will continue to owe me, then it is simpler for me to get something free from you by merely demanding it and there is no reason for me to stop.

On the other hand if I cry "you owe me" and you insist that you don't, then I am left to my own devices to seek my fortune otherwise.

If I am then presented with routes to achieve my goals through my own efforts then I will do that, or simply do without. My choice, my consequences.

That's the gist of the argument. There are opportunities available for Black Americans to achieve any goal within their individual capabilities; but some realize they don't have to work for it because there are also options to get something without all the effort. Moreover, they feel justified because they've been told it is owed to them simply because of who they are.

Sowell makes it look like these so called hand outs are all these people want to acquire in life which is the bare minimum. Talk about lumping a group of people as lazy. It is more complicated then "all we want is bare minimum hand outs in life" and wanting to strive for more and better be damned.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I brought this up in another thread. Funny how EVERY problem in this country is the 'liberals' fault. You Cons got to turn the AM radio OFF. BTW I don't know a single 'liberal' who condones and glorifies 'lawless thug life'.

Well then you don't know that many. "people will use illegal drugs anyway so decriminalize them" "three strikes laws are unfair to the criminals" "why did the police have to shoot that guy/why didn't they taze the guy/shoot him in the leg"

 

[Puigb]

Not a day goes by when some successful black person isn't called an N-word or some other racial epitaph in any comment section across America, be he or she President, first lady, a nationally known physisist or a star athlete.

The problem isn't liberals. The problem is racism.

Yeah, this.

Just read any comment section of an article that involves black people, and compare it to any comment section on an article written about white people. Heck, even if you compare articles on white criminals to articles on black criminals the vitriol directed at black criminals compared to white criminals is vastly different in the comments section. It's MUCH worse, filled with blatant racism aimed towards black people as a group.

Racism is still there, and racists use the anonymity of the internet to spout their drivel.

 

[calamity]

Yeah, this.

Just read any comment section of an article that involves black people, and compare it to any comment section on an article written about white people. Heck, even if you compare articles on white criminals to articles on black criminals the vitriol directed at black criminals compared to white criminals is vastly different in the comments section. It's MUCH worse, filled with blatant racism aimed towards black people as a group.

Racism is still there, and racists use the anonymity of the internet to spout their drivel.

Hell, they don't even have to be criminals. Just read the comments of any article which discusses a black person. Extra points when said black person makes a political statement, stars in a controversial movie, achieves an award, reaches a milestone, has a baby, etc.

 

[Port & Starboard]

Hell, they don't even have to be criminals. Just read the comments of any article which discusses a black person. Extra points when said black person makes a political statement, stars in a controversial movie, achieves an award, reaches a milestone, has a baby, etc.

Any any black person that describes what he see's what is going on within his community must obviously be a "Uncle Tom" in your eyes.........we get it!

But we both know this thread was more about the same old Calamity shtick that is meant to incite and accuse, rather than exchange ideas the issue.

Sowell knows more about black issues than you ever will.

 

[Absentglare]

What resources will actually solve the problem? If you define the problem as the lack of ability to earn an income then adding cash does nothing at all to solve the problem.

Irrelevant.

I went to a public school. It was paid for entirely by taxes, so it was given away by the government. My high school was one of the top 10 high schools in California, minority enrollment neared 90%, yet there were almost no black students.

You tell me money can't solve the problem, but until we actually widen the scope of educational opportunity to include them, we're not even offering them a fair chance to succeed. This wasn't some private school, it's a public school. This country should have a high minimum educational obligation, and many of these problem areas need additional resources, not fewer resources.

 

[Absentglare]

The "model minority" for Asians was never intended to be a "one size fits all" point. Of course there are going to people who don't exceed. But, percentage-wise, it is/was disproportionate to other minorities who didn't have such large physical barriers such as language, particularly blacks, but other minorities as well. It is honest evidence that solutions *can be* internal, which brings to one of your other points...

...culture. In many black neighborhoods it is uncool to be successful. Any black person that has ever called another black person an "Uncle Tom" or an "Oreo" is part of the problem of keeping their own culture down by actively discouraging success. Success is portrayed by them as a 'white' thing, when it's not. Then, to take it further, said cultural issues are passed off as being racially motivated by outsiders. Blaming race is easy. Racial reasons are somebody else holding us down. Cultural reasons are us holding ourselves back. Hence, it must be race.

Asians immigrate under completely different conditions than how Africans immigrated. You were looking for a cultural explanation but you may have found a partially individual one. The Asians who immigrated to the US were cherry picked from a population exceeding 2 billion. They are some of the hardest working, most ambitious, and best educated immigrants before they even set a foot on our soil. Asian Americans chose to come here.

Africans, on the other hand, didn't necessarily choose to immigrate here. Many were dragged here under restraints to work menial jobs. You can say "slavery was a really, really long time ago," but that doesn't change the reality for black Americans. They internalized their social struggles into their culture. They didn't make it up in a vacuum, they speak English differently because we didn't educate them, and then they embraced their station. I consider that noble, in a sense. The culture of black Americans isn't African culture, it's the culture WE, the people in power, helped to shape. Pawning that off on them is an excuse to shirk a meaningful social obligation.

 

[radcen]

Asians immigrate under completely different conditions than how Africans immigrated. You were looking for a cultural explanation but you may have found a partially individual one. The Asians who immigrated to the US were cherry picked from a population exceeding 2 billion. They are some of the hardest working, most ambitious, and best educated immigrants before they even set a foot on our soil. Asian Americans chose to come here.

Africans, on the other hand, didn't necessarily choose to immigrate here. Many were dragged here under restraints to work menial jobs. You can say "slavery was a really, really long time ago," but that doesn't change the reality for black Americans. They internalized their social struggles into their culture. They didn't make it up in a vacuum, they speak English differently because we didn't educate them, and then they embraced their station. I consider that noble, in a sense. The culture of black Americans isn't African culture, it's the culture WE, the people in power, helped to shape. Pawning that off on them is an excuse to shirk a meaningful social obligation.

Not sure where you got the African immigrants and slavery angle. I'm pretty sure that I said blacks who were born here and who speak the language naturally as their first language (in modern society).

Yes, here it is...

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s it was not uncommon for southeast Asian "boat people" to come to the US in their early teens, not speaking a word of English or understanding the society and culture, then graduating high school (on time!) in the top of their class, sometimes Valedictorian. And they weren't in the Beverly Hills school district, either. Why could they do it and blacks, who were born and raised here and did not have those language and similar barriers, not?

Basically, more money needs to be thrown at it, right? That's how your post comes off.

And the "boat people" weren't cherry-picked from the best and the brightest, they fought and/or paid their way onto questionable rafts and small boats. They were primarily from countries like Vietnam and Cambodia, hardly 2 billion in numbers.

You seem to have completely ignored the people I mentioned and grossly expanded the topic to include all Asians and black slaves Those are not the people and/or cultures I specified from the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Irrelevant.

I went to a public school. It was paid for entirely by taxes, so it was given away by the government. My high school was one of the top 10 high schools in California, minority enrollment neared 90%, yet there were almost no black students.

You tell me money can't solve the problem, but until we actually widen the scope of educational opportunity to include them, we're not even offering them a fair chance to succeed. This wasn't some private school, it's a public school. This country should have a high minimum educational obligation, and many of these problem areas need additional resources, not fewer resources.

OK, but that still does not explain why public funds (and laws) that should be used to improve public schools are instead being used to support (reward?) those lacking a decent public education. Often, it is not the lack of funding (defined as per pupil spending) which makes certain public schools suck - it is how those funds are used to continue to pay folks that do not get the expected results.

The "job for life" and equal pay mentality that exists in the public sector is very much a part of the problem and in no way part of the solution. Let's face the fact that a good teacher/administrator is far more apt to prefer to work in a good school in a good location yet somebody will (must?) be hired to teach in the bad schools that are in bad locations - either good teachers must be assigned less desirable duty stations (like the military does) or we will continue to get what we have today - any warm bodies with teaching certificates getting paid to teach and/or adminstrate in the least desirable school systems.

 

[Absentglare]

NO! :no:

There should be no victimhood narrative. Blacks are NOT victims...PERIOD!

Black citizens have full access to the same educational opportunities, the same employment opportunities, the same social services, etc., as any other citizen. Many Black Americans already know this and via education and hard work become respected doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, skilled vocational workers...you name it as the sky is the limit.

...

Now you're contradicting yourself. Are blacks victims of "White Liberals" or not?

Blacks don't have the same opportunities. They have different opportunities, opportunities that are not as good. That's why the outcomes are different.

Let's say you have two manufacturing lines that bake cakes. On one line, the cakes turn out pretty good most all of the time. On the other line, they come out pretty poorly most of the time. Now; you claim "the original, intended design specs on those two manufacturing lines was identical therefore those physical production lines are perfectly equal to one another and there cannot possibly be any issue with the failing production line ," and you don't see a problem with that? This is a systematic problem.

NO! That is YOUR attempt at a straw man.

Black Americans as a class don't NEED welfare; no more nor less than any other American. Black American's are intelligent, adaptable, and strong people; fully capable of achieving anything within each person's ability to achieve.

They don't need to be treated as "special needs" citizens. They should not WANT to be treated as "special needs" citizens.

...

I didn't say that black people should get special cash deposits just for being black, so ironically this is your attempt at a strawman.

What major liberal social net policies, seriously please answer this time, actually select only black people for special, privileged treatment? I honestly don't know of any off the top of my head.

My impression is that they accept the same welfare that's offered to poor white families. If you want to take welfare from them, you should look them in the eyes and do it in person. Try to see their humanity before you chip away at what little remains for pennies.

Cry me a river! The resources are there. Student loans, grants, many scholarships (cultural, academic, athletic). ...

They don't have the same opportunities. They're often concentrated in poorer neighborhoods that have consistently poorer outcomes. Segregation, separate but equal- we still have these problems. The liberals were all high and mighty about taking away segregation by law, but the liberals neglected to address segregation in practice. I guess they weren't as happy sending their kids to school alongside poor black kids.

But that's the extent of liberal issues here that i see. It's not unique to liberals in any meaningful way, left and right both want the best for their own children at the expense of others. It's selfish; society should be less selfish and more fair.

The Utopia of America that seemingly attracts all those Illegal Immigrants, Migrants, and Refugees from just about every nation on this planet...

... but they do have problems achieving the same measures of success, that's why we're having this conversation.

Let's say you have two obstacle courses; one easy one hard. If a handful of guys can succeed at the hard one, that doesn't suddenly make the two equivalent. No one has ever been able to explain to me why we should let black people have ****tier opportunities in our public schools.

Yes, there is a society wide problem...caused by Black Victimhood. It is a fantasy, it is not real. People need to take personal responsibility for their lives.

Yes, there are many issues that need to be dealt with, including but not limited to Black on Black crime, drug abuse, breakup of the nuclear family, developing a work ethic, taking care of one's business including raising and schooling the kids you breed. Those and other issues must be addressed by Black American's themselves, working as a community as opposed to acting against their own interests.

Most important of all? Stop thinking of oneself as a victim...

"Black on Black crime, drug abuse, breakup of the nuclear family, developing a work ethic, taking care of one's business" these all reek of the drug war. Organized crime is perceived as a viable path to success in many communities, and that's partially our doing.

I feel like you refuse to acknowledge that the people who are in control of the system are responsible for their own systematic problems.

 

[Absentglare]

The argument is that it takes away incentive.

The argument is never if a safety net should exist( Ok maybe I should never say never, there are probably some lunatics who might argue for none---maybe.00000000001 % of the populace) ,its the size and scope of it. Right wingers think it's ultimately destructive to have if be too big. For lw'ers ,it doesn't ever seem to be enough.

What incentive does it take away? The incentive to desperately accept any job no matter how degrading or underpaid?

It doesn't make sense to employ someone who doesn't want to be there. Those people make the worst employees. Employment should be voluntary, otherwise market forces will not operate.

You're right that the argument is "how big should we make the safety net?" And my argument is big enough for equal opportunity, a milestone we fall far short of. And part of that is because the rich parents find a way to give their kid an advantage. They don't want a level playing field because they don't want their offspring to genuinely compete.

 

[KLATTU]

What incentive does it take away? The incentive to desperately accept any job no matter how degrading or underpaid?
te.

YEs. Precisely . Exactly
Exactly as I did when I was young.

 

[KLATTU]

It doesn't make sense to employ someone who doesn't want to be there. Those people make the worst employees. Employment should be voluntary, otherwise market forces will not operate.te.

What a crock. I tool a lot of crap jobs when I was young. I complained and I got the lecture from my parents. My kids took crap jobs and they complained. They got the lecture from me.

" Unless you're Chelsea Clinton or one of the Obama girls, you aren't going to get a good high paying job on your name. You're going to have to earn it ."