This gun banning stupidity... has to end. It wasn't the gun, it was the system to blame.

[Bucky]

Generally later is too late when property, liberty and freedoms are gone. How about stopping these people before they go off the deep end instead of going after the least effective solution?

Well, RENAE, a gun owner had his gun and couldn't stop the shooter.

 

[Renae]

So just to see if we are on the same page here...

You are of the opinion that if a kid assaults another kid and someone in social services considers them to be obviously troubled, that this should begin the process of taking away any firearms in his possession and barring him from future purchases? Or are you saying that we should arrest and throw in jail kids that get into fights at school?

You guys are SOO Transparent. You're trying to get me to step into the "Yes, remove his access to guns" so you can swoop and say "So it is the gun, why wait"? Please, stop it. That's juvenile. What I want is the authorities to act when these red flags are raised, so these kids/people get the help they need, be that mental health, mental health hospital stays or even incarceration if that is what is warranted. If their actions meet the level of raising them on to the do not buy lists for guns, then so be it. That's part of the solution, but that list doesn't stop the kid from killing his mother and taking her guns... Adam Lanza anyone?

All the gun ban crap would do is reduce an avenue for mayhem, and it would be a minor roadblock to a dedicated individual. I want to stop the crazies BEFORE they act.

 

[Renae]

Well, RENAE, a gun owner had his gun and couldn't stop the shooter.

I'm aware that law enforcement officers were derelict in their duties. They were merely the latest in a long string of failures.

 

[bestwords76]

It was a response to this: "to want to run into the school and kill as many people as I can. . ." You do not need a gun to do such and gasoline is much easier for a student to get than guns.
That's the problem with people who want gun bans, it never stops. Just ban the next item, right? You're a perfect example of what Renae points out.

As to other places outside of USA, irrelevant.

I didn't mean banning other items as the other part of the problem, I meant changing the system as in proving psychological help, educating teachers to better recognize abnormal behaviour and red flags etc. And the same statement can be applied to people who want to keep guns. They never stop demanding that either.

Why are other countries irrelevant? If we have the possibility to see how others handle a situation and be able to learn from that, why would we choose not to do that? Just so we can stay in our 'USA The Greatest' mentality? I think it is a gift that societies can learn from each other, from the negatives and the positives. The world is globalized, let's take a look beyond our own nose.

 

[Bucky]

Generally later is too late when property, liberty and freedoms are gone. How about stopping these people before they go off the deep end instead of going after the least effective solution?

I find it ironic you support a segment/group of people that want to take away many liberties and freedom aways from people.

 

[Bucky]

you are on record wanting to ban all firearms

so you support any movement towards that complete ban

I don't want to ban all firearms.

I want to make it a lot harder for anyone to obtain a firearm. Even a law-abiding citizen.

We see it in airports. The TSA agents will now physically grope you when traveling. You are not allowed to carry many items when flying.

Make it harder to obtain a firearm. Beef up the current laws.

 

[roughdraft274]

You guys are SOO Transparent. You're trying to get me to step into the "Yes, remove his access to guns" so you can swoop and say "So it is the gun, why wait"? Please, stop it. That's juvenile. What I want is the authorities to act when these red flags are raised, so these kids/people get the help they need, be that mental health, mental health hospital stays or even incarceration if that is what is warranted. If their actions meet the level of raising them on to the do not buy lists for guns, then so be it. That's part of the solution, but that list doesn't stop the kid from killing his mother and taking her guns... Adam Lanza anyone?

All the gun ban crap would do is reduce an avenue for mayhem, and it would be a minor roadblock to a dedicated individual. I want to stop the crazies BEFORE they act.

That wasn't my intent at all. I'm really trying to pull out of you the exact actions that should have been taken in this case that you feel would have stopped this incident. You seem to be saying that the police screwed the pooch because they were alerted about all the red flags, but that just begs the question what actions are we willing to allow by the police on someone that raises such flags.

You're histrionics don't allow for an intelligent discussion, I'll spend my time elsewhere. Thanks for the (sort-of) response.

 

[MACS-24]

I didn't mean banning other items as the other part of the problem, I meant changing the system as in proving psychological help, educating teachers to better recognize abnormal behaviour and red flags etc. And the same statement can be applied to people who want to keep guns. They never stop demanding that either.

This should be the first choice. We've been blaming guns since at least early 60's, if not longer. How's that been working out.

Why are other countries irrelevant? If we have the possibility to see how others handle a situation and be able to learn from that, why would we choose not to do that? Just so we can stay in our 'USA The Greatest' mentality? I think it is a gift that societies can learn from each other, from the negatives and the positives. The world is globalized, let's take a look beyond our own nose.

It's been discussed ad nauseum on this sub forum - look it up. just a touch of it; between our culture and our Constitution, you cannot compare this subject with every one else.

 

[Renae]

I find it ironic you support a segment/group of people that want to take away many liberties and freedom aways from people.

What are you on about?

 

[TurtleDude]

I don't want to ban all firearms.

I want to make it a lot harder for anyone to obtain a firearm. Even a law-abiding citizen.

We see it in airports. The TSA agents will now physically grope you when traveling. You are not allowed to carry many items when flying.

Make it harder to obtain a firearm. Beef up the current laws.

you're lying Bucky-on various polls you have stated guns should be banned

 

[Renae]

That wasn't my intent at all. I'm really trying to pull out of you the exact actions that should have been taken in this case that you feel would have stopped this incident. You seem to be saying that the police screwed the pooch because they were alerted about all the red flags, but that just begs the question what actions are we willing to allow by the police on someone that raises such flags.

You're histrionics don't allow for an intelligent discussion, I'll spend my time elsewhere. Thanks for the (sort-of) response.

WE should probably just ban all guns iunstead of having the police able to act on people that are mentally unstable, violent and make it clear they intend to inflict harm on others. That's the ticket. /RME

 

[Lursa]

Imagine if this, instead of a crazed kid with a long history of violence and mental health issues, was instead a repeat drunk driver, that was never arrested, never had his licence pulled. Imagine that same drunk driver plowing into a school bus killing a bunch of kids. Would we be demanding Alcohol be banned? Would Wal-Mart pull beer from the shelves? Would the https://www.nbwa.org be getting calls for boycotts? Would the manufacture of the vehicle he drove be called out for not installing a breathalyzer standard in all it's vehicles?

Of course not, all the out-rage would be at the police for failing, at the bar he drank at and at him for driving drunk.

I like this ^^. But it just highlights the fact that as much as people like to claim there is a 'gun culture' and millions of gun fanatics in the US, there are just as many people that illogically hate guns...fear guns.

These same people put themselves and their kids in vehicles everyday, and thus at much higher risk of death and injury, without a 2nd thought. Because America loves its cars and loves that convenience. As if 'convenience' was enough of an excuse. Apparently it's not for gun carriers.

And it's on the news right now...pedestrians are dying...getting hit by cars. It's up 22% this year from last.

I have asked...since it would save many more lives, why dont we change all speed limits, nationally, to no more than 35 mph? Why not? You cant leave earlier? You cant plan ahead? You cant alter your schedule? It would save thousands of lives.

 

[Lursa]

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but you haven't actually offered any solutions to "fix" the system you allege is to blame.

What could (and should) have occurred to prevent this particular incident?

THere arent total solutions to some problems. There are often trade-offs and compromises.

"Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

 

[Lursa]

If the drunk driver from your example had hit a school bus and killed the same number of students, this would have been an equally tragic event. However, how many comparable cases like this have you heard of? A permanent ban of alcohol would likely not be demanded nor enforced if one drunk driver had caused such a tragic event. If suddenly though, people all over the country started getting drunk and hitting school busses (deliberately, mind you, with the intention of killing people), because they cannot be trusted with alcohol due to mental problems, I'm pretty sure the debate would come up.

It's a matter of perception, like I wrote. Here are actual numbers and they are very shocking...but we dont see them all at once like we do for mass shootings.

How big is the problem? In 2015, 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (29%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. Of the 1, 1,132 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2015, 209 (16%) involved an alcohol-impaired driver.Jun 16, 2017

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

 

[Lursa]

you're lying Bucky-on various polls you have stated guns should be banned

Full-on blatantly.

 

[Lursa]

Okay so let's say I'm a mentally ill kid who is unstable enough to want to run into the school and kill as many people as I can. I can only do so if the system grants me easy access to a shooting weapon.

If I was the same mentally ill kid in a different country with the same desire to kill, I couldn't do so, for the simple reason of not getting my hnads on a gun.

This is basic logic and only a small part of the solution, but would you not agree that this would prevent at least a considerable number of mass shootings?

What different laws would you recommend? Let's start there.

 

[Goshin]

Look I get it, the FL shooting was terrible, horrible and tragic. But the reality is the system had HOW many opportunities to stop this? From people reporting him, the school not reporting him to the police (that's a side issue of National Direction on school discipline failing... ) the police not following up, the FBI dropped the ball, hell this kid was raising huge red flags and no one acted.

Imagine if this, instead of a crazed kid with a long history of violence and mental health issues, was instead a repeat drunk driver, that was never arrested, never had his licence pulled. Imagine that same drunk driver plowing into a school bus killing a bunch of kids. Would we be demanding Alcohol be banned? Would Wal-Mart pull beer from the shelves? Would the https://www.nbwa.org be getting calls for boycotts? Would the manufacture of the vehicle he drove be called out for not installing a breathalyzer standard in all it's vehicles?

Of course not, all the out-rage would be at the police for failing, at the bar he drank at and at him for driving drunk.

I get it, a shooter is a different animal, but in a way both are pre-mediated acts of carnage and tragedy.

Instead of banning guns and attacking the NRA (seriously, that's the most asinine thing I've ever seen) let's fix the system that should have, would have stopped this kid had the system not been broken.

Let's have a serious look at what went wrong, why it went wrong and fix it across the board.

While we're at it, the conversation needs to include deterring these lunatics, gun free zones are just too dangerous.

 

[roughdraft274]

WE should probably just ban all guns iunstead of having the police able to act on people that are mentally unstable, violent and make it clear they intend to inflict harm on others. That's the ticket. /RME

All I was trying to do was to get an idea from you of exactly what the limit was to where we as a society should say "this person shouldn't have access to guns" or "this person needs to be in a mental institution" or "this person should be locked up". My argument was never headed to "we need to ban certain guns.

If you can't handle a very simple debate with a person who calmly asked a simple question then I'd suggest another hobby.

 

[Lursa]

In which way would banning guns make it any easier to fire bomb a school? It would not be any easier to access chamicals or dynamite or whatever than it is now.

Plus, I did mention, banning guns would only be a start to tackling the problem. If the system did keep a closer eye on mentally ill kids and provided enough help for them and did more in the regard of preventing any kind of violence resulting from that, than that would be the wholesome solution.

Gun abuse is happening nowhere as much as it is in the US, the country which happens to be the only one where guns are freely allowed in civilian hands.

So you believe in repealing the 2A then? Banning guns?

Which will work as well as the failed "War on Drugs" and then truly only leave guns in the hands of those that will use them against those without.

 

[Goshin]

Okay so let's say I'm a mentally ill kid who is unstable enough to want to run into the school and kill as many people as I can. I can only do so if the system grants me easy access to a shooting weapon.

If I was the same mentally ill kid in a different country with the same desire to kill, I couldn't do so, for the simple reason of not getting my hnads on a gun.

This is basic logic and only a small part of the solution, but would you not agree that this would prevent at least a considerable number of mass shootings?

Well in Europe they use bombs, drive vehicles into crowds... and yes, they get guns. See Charlie Hebdo and the Norway Massacre, among others.

 

[Lursa]

Well, RENAE, a gun owner had his gun and couldn't stop the shooter.

No...he refused to get involved.

 

[Renae]

All I was trying to do was to get an idea from you of exactly what the limit was to where we as a society should say "this person shouldn't have access to guns" or "this person needs to be in a mental institution" or "this person should be locked up". My argument was never headed to "we need to ban certain guns.

If you can't handle a very simple debate with a person who calmly asked a simple question then I'd suggest another hobby.

RD, I gave my rationale answer in the OP. We need to look at all the failures, asses what when wrong and why and formulate a solid response from there. Here, the original quote:

Instead of banning guns and attacking the NRA (seriously, that's the most asinine thing I've ever seen) let's fix the system that should have, would have stopped this kid had the system not been broken.

Let's have a serious look at what went wrong, why it went wrong and fix it across the board.

I gave you the answer you CLAIM you want, but either you ignored the OP or you read it and had no answers so you're playing word games.

What do I think should be done? I told you, clearly, I'm not the one that needs a new hobby.

 

[bestwords76]

What different laws would you recommend? Let's start there.

I will be honest and say I don't exactly know how they need to be changed exactly to effectively change the system, but I can see that the way it's been handled hasn't been working out too well (seeing as the gun debate has been going on since the 60's). I'm with the user who said guns and any kind of firearms at least need to be made much harder to access. There need to be stricter regulations and check-ups.

But my opinion is still that firearms do not belong in the hands of civilians. This is what we have the police and military for. Freedom and liberty must not be obtained at all costs , those being the countless lives of kids.

 

[Rucker61]

I will be honest and say I don't exactly know how they need to be changed exactly to effectively change the system, but I can see that the way it's been handled hasn't been working out too well (seeing as the gun debate has been going on since the 60's). I'm with the user who said guns and any kind of firearms at least need to be made much harder to access. There need to be stricter regulations and check-ups.

But my opinion is still that firearms do not belong in the hands of civilians. This is what we have the police and military for. Freedom and liberty must not be obtained at all costs , those being the countless lives of kids.

I saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called "Schindlers's List".

 

[Renae]

I will be honest and say I don't exactly know how they need to be changed exactly to effectively change the system, but I can see that the way it's been handled hasn't been working out too well (seeing as the gun debate has been going on since the 60's). I'm with the user who said guns and any kind of firearms at least need to be made much harder to access. There need to be stricter regulations and check-ups.

But my opinion is still that firearms do not belong in the hands of civilians. This is what we have the police and military for. Freedom and liberty must not be obtained at all costs , those being the countless lives of kids.

History tells us what happens when you have guns only in the hands of the Government and the criminals. No thank you.