The US Military on the cheap. How would you do it?

[PirateMk1]

Ok, a thought exercise for today and however long people are interested.

Pretend that we have to cut our military budget drastically for the foreseeable future. By one quarter, by one half, and by three quarters. In each of these three scenarios, how would you do it? Would there be priority differences between the three different size cuts in budget, or would you maintain similar priorities regardless the size of cut?

As the Iron Chef says "Begin!!!"

 

[Oozlefinch]

Ok, a thought exercise for today and however long people are interested.

Pretend that we have to cut our military budget drastically for the foreseeable future. By one quarter, by one half, and by three quarters. In each of these three scenarios, how would you do it? Would there be priority differences between the three different size cuts in budget, or would you maintain similar priorities regardless the size of cut?

As the Iron Chef says "Begin!!!"

Simple, it's impossible.

But if you insist, fire 90% of the contractors and civilians working in the DoD. Fire all the civilian doctors and nurses and use the draft capability of the PHSCC to fill those roles at a lower cost.

Forbid all first term enlistees from either being married, or having children.

And it really is impossible. The largest single expenditure in the DoD budget is manpower. Salary, medical, housing expenses, training costs, and the like. This is well over 1/3, and at times almost 1/2 of the annual budget. It is impossible really to cut it by the amount you want unless we do like China and Russia, and pay our personnel like $100 a month.

 

[Rexedgar]

Wasn’t all that long ago..........

1958-1962 Military Pay Chart

 

[vegas giants]

Ok, a thought exercise for today and however long people are interested.

Pretend that we have to cut our military budget drastically for the foreseeable future. By one quarter, by one half, and by three quarters. In each of these three scenarios, how would you do it? Would there be priority differences between the three different size cuts in budget, or would you maintain similar priorities regardless the size of cut?

As the Iron Chef says "Begin!!!"

Close almost all overseas bases. Mothball half the carrier groups.

It all starts with changing the mission.

Protect the homeland....and just the homeland

 

[ecofarm]

Simple, it's impossible.

But if you insist, fire 90% of the contractors and civilians working in the DoD. Fire all the civilian doctors and nurses and use the draft capability of the PHSCC to fill those roles at a lower cost.

Forbid all first term enlistees from either being married, or having children.

And it really is impossible. The largest single expenditure in the DoD budget is manpower. Salary, medical, housing expenses, training costs, and the like. This is well over 1/3, and at times almost 1/2 of the annual budget. It is impossible really to cut it by the amount you want unless we do like China and Russia, and pay our personnel like $100 a month.

I was gonna begin with cutting personnel in half. Shift to drones and bots.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Stop paying the troops.

Boom. Huge chunk of the budget gone.

 

[PirateMk1]

Stop paying the troops.

Boom. Huge chunk of the budget gone.

That would definitely be cheaper, but I would venture to ask how would you defend the country then? Troops wont work for free.

 

[PirateMk1]

Simple, it's impossible.

But if you insist, fire 90% of the contractors and civilians working in the DoD. Fire all the civilian doctors and nurses and use the draft capability of the PHSCC to fill those roles at a lower cost.

Forbid all first term enlistees from either being married, or having children.

And it really is impossible. The largest single expenditure in the DoD budget is manpower. Salary, medical, housing expenses, training costs, and the like. This is well over 1/3, and at times almost 1/2 of the annual budget. It is impossible really to cut it by the amount you want unless we do like China and Russia, and pay our personnel like $100 a month.

Lets pretend we have no choice in this matter. We cant borrow money or some other such thing. We are stuck with the miserable job of reworking the military that is viable at a lower cost. How would you go about doing it? How would you change the mission if at all and to what if so. What would be your priorities? For instance the ability to fight 2 wars at once, does that change to something more modest?

 

[PirateMk1]

I was gonna begin with cutting personnel in half. Shift to drones and bots.

Will the shift to drones and bots really lower costs?

 

[ecofarm]

Will the shift to drones and bots really lower costs?

As Ooze noted, personnel is the largest cost. And they're already employing expensive machinery.

 

[PirateMk1]

Close almost all overseas bases. Mothball half the carrier groups.

It all starts with changing the mission.

Protect the homeland....and just the homeland

Ok you would adjust the mission. So would train more at home what would you emphasis and what would you set aside.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I was gonna begin with cutting personnel in half. Shift to drones and bots.

Not hardly!

Just look at the cost of a drone, and the number of man hours it requires to keep it flying. In fact, hour per hour a Drone is really not much cheaper than the rest of the aircraft we use.

How expensive?

Well, according to this report, a Predator costs around $3.234 per flight hour to operate.

Are UAS More Cost Effective than Manned Flights? | Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International

I wish I could find the breakdown I used a year or so back, but drones are actually one of the most expensive forms of airborne platforms putting weapons on target that there are. When you compare the cost and maintenance requirements and compare it to the amount of ordinance they can deliver, they are horribly inefficient.

And to compare, a UH-60 Blackhawk costs around $5,687 per hour. But unlike a drone with a crew of 1, it has a crew of 4.

And the Predator is also the cheapest of all of our combat drones to operate. The RQ-4 Global Hawk is close to $50k per hour to operate.

Drones are not as cheap as most people seem to believe, not by a long shot. A modern military drone is almost as expensive as a fighter jet like an F-16, and requires as many if not more man hours to keep it running.

 

[Jredbaron96]

That would definitely be cheaper, but I would venture to ask how would you defend the country then? Troops wont work for free.

Ah, well you only said to tighten the budget, not retain a combat effective force : P

But to answer your question, to meet the demands you placed forward would require significant scale back of our current size and deployments.

You could slim down the budget in a number of ways:

Merge the services

Close down unneeded bases.

Deactivate a squadron of B-52s and a squadron of B-1s.

Get everybody onto the same logistics train; same uniforms with as few variations as feasible, etc. Allow for an extended 'wear out period' to allow for initial adjustment costs to be absorbed more easily.

Shift roughly 30% of the active duty land component brigades to Reserve status over the course of several years

Sell off the surplus obsolete weapon systems to various entities depending on what the items are;.

Streamline the order of the F-35s to the F-35C and a slightly reduced number of F-35As.

Put the bomber force into Reserve status except for a single B-2 squadron that can remain on active duty in the event that an emergency should arise and a well trained crew is needed for a high priority mission.

Slice into the BMD budget until the tech matures

Demand some ****ing transparency for the black projects and other secret squirrel ****.

Cut down on MWR funding in CONUS.

If the South Koreans are up for it, US forces should vacate the camp nearest the DMZ.

15% reduction of personnel within military staff bureaucracies and 20% reduction of personnel within DoD civilian staff bureaucracies.

Major, MAJOR, MAJOR procurement reform.

 

[ecofarm]

Not hardly!

Just look at the cost of a drone, and the number of man hours it requires to keep it flying. In fact, hour per hour a Drone is really not much cheaper than the rest of the aircraft we use.

How expensive?

Well, according to this report, a Predator costs around $3.234 per flight hour to operate.

Are UAS More Cost Effective than Manned Flights? | Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International

I wish I could find the breakdown I used a year or so back, but drones are actually one of the most expensive forms of airborne platforms putting weapons on target that there are. When you compare the cost and maintenance requirements and compare it to the amount of ordinance they can deliver, they are horribly inefficient.

And to compare, a UH-60 Blackhawk costs around $5,687 per hour. But unlike a drone with a crew of 1, it has a crew of 4.

And the Predator is also the cheapest of all of our combat drones to operate. The RQ-4 Global Hawk is close to $50k per hour to operate.

Drones are not as cheap as most people seem to believe, not by a long shot. A modern military drone is almost as expensive as a fighter jet like an F-16, and requires as many if not more man hours to keep it running.

Whether Tows or tanks or planes, personnel operate expensive machinery.

The cost of going drones and bots is a piece of our humanity.

 

[KevinKohler]

I would break the goal up.

Army, navy, air force. Each would have to reduce operating budget by 30%. Let their leadership sort out how.

 

[vegas giants]

Ok you would adjust the mission. So would train more at home what would you emphasis and what would you set aside.

Train to defend the homeland. That means our shores. No more wars in foreign lands unless they attack us.

That should save a few trillion

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Ok, a thought exercise for today and however long people are interested.

Pretend that we have to cut our military budget drastically for the foreseeable future. By one quarter, by one half, and by three quarters. In each of these three scenarios, how would you do it? Would there be priority differences between the three different size cuts in budget, or would you maintain similar priorities regardless the size of cut?

As the Iron Chef says "Begin!!!"

First I would make a distinction between combat soldiers and non combat soldiers and change the pay and benefit structure. If you are sitting behind a desk in complete safety I don't think you should get the same benefits as the person out their getting shot at. No 20 year full retirement for those in non combat roles. I would close most of our bases in other countries. We could still commit to being their ally and coming to their aid if attacked. But we don't need to be securing other countries borders when we can't secure our own. I would assist in coalitions but not take on the role of fighting other countries battles. Nation building needs to end and we can supply and train them to fight for their freedom but not do it for them. But the number 1 priority would be not let the rich and powerful use our military for their profit and exploitation of people and resources all over the world.

 

[BahamaBob]

Simple, mothball all conventional weapons. Inform the world that we will be enforcing our foreign policy with nukes.

 

[vegas giants]

First I would make a distinction between combat soldiers and non combat soldiers and change the pay and benefit structure. If you are sitting behind a desk in complete safety I don't think you should get the same benefits as the person out their getting shot at. No 20 year full retirement for those in non combat roles. I would close most of our bases in other countries. We could still commit to being their ally and coming to their aid if attacked. But we don't need to be securing other countries borders when we can't secure our own. I would assist in coalitions but not take on the role of fighting other countries battles. Nation building needs to end and we can supply and train them to fight for their freedom but not do it for them. But the number 1 priority would be not let the rich and powerful use our military for their profit and exploitation of people and resources all over the world.

You would lose the best and brightest. Some non combat troops go to school for over a year to do their job.

 

[PirateMk1]

As Ooze noted, personnel is the largest cost. And they're employing expensive machinery.

A thought I had if I was President and faced with a 3/4s reduction and no choice in the matter, would be to adjust the priority to a MAD type of posture. Whereas offensive capability in conventional sense is limited severely and minimal personal is utilized to the maximum extent possible, and the same time upgrading and maximizing my unconventional offensive capability. Basically almost all tactical war fighting elements would be reduced to a small very flexible special operations group for reprisal and very limited conventional warfare. All the heavy conventional war fighting equipment given to the National Guard or Reserves, or sold to allied nations or mothballed. The strategic nuclear war fighting elements would be upgraded and made highest priority. The nuclear triad would have maximum priority over all other possible units and nuclear testing renewed. The emphasis in the triad would be on ICBMs upgrading and expansion, then the Air Force strategic bombers outfitted with nuclear armed missiles with supersonic capability. Just enough capability to punch through most air defense relatively inexpensively. The navy's ballistic missile and cruise missile submarines would be upgraded an added to on as needed basis. The cruise missile subs would have amongst their missiles nuclear armed variants as the case would warrant at the time up to a full load. New boats would be added slowly on an as fully funded basis as needed, alternating SSGN and SSBN as they come. The idea is to maximize the military punch weight to dollar such that even at vastly reduced money the country is well defended in case of all out war.

 

[ecofarm]

A thought I had if I was President and faced with a 3/4s reduction and no choice in the matter, would be to adjust the priority to a MAD type of posture. Whereas offensive capability in conventional sense is limited severely and minimal personal is utilized to the maximum extent possible, and the same time upgrading and maximizing my unconventional offensive capability. Basically almost all tactical war fighting elements would be reduced to a small very flexible special operations group for reprisal and very limited conventional warfare. All the heavy conventional war fighting equipment given to the National Guard or Reserves, or sold to allied nations or mothballed. The strategic nuclear war fighting elements would be upgraded and made highest priority. The nuclear triad would have maximum priority over all other possible units and nuclear testing renewed. The emphasis in the triad would be on ICBMs upgrading and expansion, then the Air Force strategic bombers outfitted with nuclear armed missiles with supersonic capability. Just enough capability to punch through most air defense relatively inexpensively. The navy's ballistic missile and cruise missile submarines would be upgraded an added to on as needed basis. The cruise missile subs would have amongst their missiles nuclear armed variants as the case would warrant at the time up to a full load. New boats would be added slowly on an as fully funded basis as needed, alternating SSGN and SSBN as they come. The idea is to maximize the military punch weight to dollar such that even at vastly reduced money the country is well defended in case of all out war.

Changing power projection and posture is also a piece of our humanity.

 

[PirateMk1]

Not hardly!

Just look at the cost of a drone, and the number of man hours it requires to keep it flying. In fact, hour per hour a Drone is really not much cheaper than the rest of the aircraft we use.

How expensive?

Well, according to this report, a Predator costs around $3.234 per flight hour to operate.

Are UAS More Cost Effective than Manned Flights? | Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International

I wish I could find the breakdown I used a year or so back, but drones are actually one of the most expensive forms of airborne platforms putting weapons on target that there are. When you compare the cost and maintenance requirements and compare it to the amount of ordinance they can deliver, they are horribly inefficient.

And to compare, a UH-60 Blackhawk costs around $5,687 per hour. But unlike a drone with a crew of 1, it has a crew of 4.

And the Predator is also the cheapest of all of our combat drones to operate. The RQ-4 Global Hawk is close to $50k per hour to operate.

Drones are not as cheap as most people seem to believe, not by a long shot. A modern military drone is almost as expensive as a fighter jet like an F-16, and requires as many if not more man hours to keep it running.

All of what you write is very true, IF we stick to the current way we procure and operate them.

You would think a drone would be the perfect thing to test in combat conditions at home by running them through live fire gauntlets, I have yet to hear of a program do that.

Drones or bot should be cheap and disposable almost as disposable as a missile or other munitions. A drone should also be a set it and forget it machine such that it requires minimal personnel to use effectively. They should require very minimal maintenance and repairs should be exceedingly simple if they are bothered with at all. Drones should be manufactured, stored in boxes and used when needed until they are destroyed or recycled. Practice with drones should be in hostile live fire environments constantly exposing them to the extremes of combat to expose and learn and cope with and eventually remove weaknesses of the designs constantly testing limits and improving them.

Our military does the exact opposite in their drone programs. A combat machine is by its very nature meant to be expendable if necessary. Yet we build boondoggles that put substantial resources into a few very expensive machines that are very good and cant afford to be lost. How do you use those effectively?

 

[PirateMk1]

Changing power projection and posture is also a piece of our humanity.

Unfortunately such is life, we are constrained by resources and must try to do our best with what we have.

 

[ecofarm]

Unfortunately such is life, we are constrained by resources and must try to do our best with what we have.

I'd rather give up humanity in mechanization than liberation (see user title).

 

[Rexedgar]

All of what you write is very true, IF we stick to the current way we procure and operate them.

You would think a drone would be the perfect thing to test in combat conditions at home by running them through live fire gauntlets, I have yet to hear of a program do that.

Drones or bot should be cheap and disposable almost as disposable as a missile or other munitions. A drone should also be a set it and forget it machine such that it requires minimal personnel to use effectively. They should require very minimal maintenance and repairs should be exceedingly simple if they are bothered with at all. Drones should be manufactured, stored in boxes and used when needed until they are destroyed or recycled. Practice with drones should be in hostile live fire environments constantly exposing them to the extremes of combat to expose and learn and cope with and eventually remove weaknesses of the designs constantly testing limits and improving them.

Our military does the exact opposite in their drone programs. A combat machine is by its very nature meant to be expendable if necessary. Yet we build boondoggles that put substantial resources into a few very expensive machines that are very good and cant afford to be lost. How do you use those effectively?

I served in the ADA battalion attached to the 82nd ABN division in the early 1970’s. We had a shop that built and flew RC airplanes for target acquisition. Every year the division put on a show for the brass/Congress. The two years I was there, it was called “Brass Key.”

There was all the division had to offer displayed on one of the impact areas. Artillery, anti armor weapons, everything but troops. Just before the final display of fighters from Pope AFB dropping napalm and going to after-burners, we flew the RC plane across the front of the viewing area. There were half a dozen M-60 set up on stands where the gunners were firing from standing positions. My job was setting up the commo. One time, after the third pass without any damage, the controller screamed into the microphone and said “Crash the God-damned plane on the next pass!”