The right wing lie about trickle down. by chart

[jbander]

Don't even try. No one in their right mind expects equal outcomes. And don't imply that equal opportunity exists in the age of SCOTUS rulings like yesterday's. Elites who furiously saw off the rungs on ladders of opportunity are fond of bootstrap arguments in the face of gutted social contracts which function as an investment in future generations and bulwarks of stability and security.

Poverty need only be bad enough to act as a prime motivator to reach for opportunities for self advancement. Eliminating access to those opportunities is every bit as much a factor in generational poverty as an oversized welfare state.

You mentioned NFL heroes. I grew up in a time where there were just as many intellectual heroes as there were football heroes.
It wasn't uncommon to see the two together on the same bedroom wall.

And persons who lack the talent to climb to the top should still be able to create a secure living for their family by putting in their forty hours a week.
Single income families in today's America are almost exclusively the province of the top 5 percent and above, whereas they used to be the standard.
Blue collar today means two, three or even four jobs split amongst a working couple, deep debt and negative assets, and the knowledge that a family is always one medical or financial catastrophe away from losing everything.

The only requirement for a just free society is that steady work alone should be its own reward, enough of which to simply make two ends meet.
Things like education, health care and some kind of lodging are basics.
Not everyone gets to live in a mansion, but a nation with Hoovervilles scattered from coast to coast needs no explanation.
Millions of working families did not just decide to become BUMS because they thought it might be fun, and pretending that poverty doesn't exist because someone has a fridge and a microwave reeks of Dickensian contempt for reality.

Simple logic , you take the incentive of the possibility of the potensial to get ahead and capitalism dies , they have achieved this and more. How does a party that only exist for the transfer of all the wealth to the top exist, how dumb are their supporters.

 

[jbander]

I responded to this already.

No you didn't because you can't support a premise that is totally false . Come on now, you have the golden answer, share it with us.

 

[jbander]

You're a douche

Love it, I told he wouldn't be able to support his crap.

 

[Bullseye]

You might of considered that the sights name was bull**** lies from the right wing liars/

It was the states themselves making the reports, I'd hardly call New York or Michigan "right wing liars".

 

[jbander]

It was the states themselves making the reports, I'd hardly call New York or Michigan "right wing liars".

First the map says nothing about Michigan falling behind in the first place and second it shows that new york only fell behind in 2018 which is a fact , so how in the hell does Michigan and New york support you supposed facts.

 

[Bullseye]

First the map says nothing about Michigan falling behind in the first place and second it shows that new york only fell behind in 2018 which is a fact , so how in the hell does Michigan and New york support you supposed facts.

All my link is reporting is INCREASED INCOME your map is talking about deficits - the combination of spending and revenue. Two different things. There's no telling how old the data from the map is, my link is reporting CURRENT data from the states themselves.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

All my link is reporting is INCREASED INCOME your map is talking about deficits - the combination of spending and revenue. Two different things. There's no telling how old the data from the map is, my link is reporting CURRENT data from the states themselves.

uh you were informed yesterday:

Im not sure which is worse, yer supposition that revenue increases in NY are the result of "people" making "more".....or still after all of these years relying on IBD editorials.

NY's Comptroller cites increased CORPORATE tax revenue change, from the Drumpf cuts, as the cause of increases in state revenue. Corps profit increases are the cause, not "people", individuals, making more.

https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports...york-citys-fy-2018-preliminary-budget-report/

 

[Gimmesometruth]

uh you were informed yesterday:

Im not sure which is worse, yer supposition that revenue increases in NY are the result of "people" making "more".....or still after all of these years relying on IBD editorials.

NY's Comptroller cites increased CORPORATE tax revenue change, from the Drumpf cuts, as the cause of increases in state revenue. Corps profit increases are the cause, not "people", individuals, making more.

https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports...york-citys-fy-2018-preliminary-budget-report/

Note: These are projections, not realized yet

 

[vanceen]

No you didn't because you can't support a premise that is totally false . Come on now, you have the golden answer, share it with us.

Yes, I responded to this earlier.

decrease in top tax rates does not explain why middle class and poor incomes stopped growing. In reply to your message below, your charts do not "say it all". You haven't made a case for your assertion that income disparity is due to tax laws.

No, I don't have an answer as to why this has happened (I mentioned devaluation of labor by information technology, but I'm not sure that's a complete explanation). I'm just pointing out that your answer doesn't work.

If we can figure out what has happened, we have a much better chance of fixing it.

As I said in my first post on this thread, you have not explained how tax law is the source of income disparity. You still haven't. And because I point out that your answer doesn't work doesn't mean that I know the answer. I know my grandson's bicycle is not made of cheddar cheese because it would collapse under his weight and soften in the sun. That doesn't mean that I know exactly what it's made of.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Simple logic , you take the incentive of the possibility of the potensial to get ahead and capitalism dies , they have achieved this and more. How does a party that only exist for the transfer of all the wealth to the top exist, how dumb are their supporters.

The geese haven't quite stopped laying the golden eggs yet, but I can see the event horizon from where I'm sitting right now.
I'm suspecting the next move is to try to kill off as many geese as possible however, whether for punishment or the value of their "meat".

After all, isn't that what massive recessions and outright crashes and economic depressions are? They're a huge fire sale where the folks at the top get to reacquire everything they sold at deep discount, so it can all be sold again.
Crashes and Great Depressions are a bonanza for people at the top, they couldn't be happier, just as long as they have all their ducks in a row and are prepared to do the big buyouts.

The New Deal rejiggered the wheels and gears so that the cycles rewarded the middle class instead. It was still very much a capitalist system, only it was built as a tool to even out the flow of money and filter it through the smaller hands first.
As Will Rogers pointed out, eventually the money filtered up to the top anyway but at least the little people got to get their hands on it for a while first.

"The money was all appropriated for the top in the hopes that it would trickle down to the needy. Mr. Hoover didn’t know that money trickled up. Give it to the people at the bottom and the people at the top will have it before night, anyhow. But it will at least have passed through the poor fellows hands."

Will Rogers in the St. Petersburg Times - Nov 26, 1932

 

[jbander]

All my link is reporting is INCREASED INCOME your map is talking about deficits - the combination of spending and revenue. Two different things. There's no telling how old the data from the map is, my link is reporting CURRENT data from the states themselves.

One map is to rate tax friendly environment and the others show the level of the economy's compared to the rest of the country. What it shows clearly is if there is any point at all is would be that to produce the best state economies higher taxes are the answer.

 

[jbander]

Yes, I responded to this earlier.





As I said in my first post on this thread, you have not explained how tax law is the source of income disparity. You still haven't. And because I point out that your answer doesn't work doesn't mean that I know the answer. I know my grandson's bicycle is not made of cheddar cheese because it would collapse under his weight and soften in the sun. That doesn't mean that I know exactly what it's made of.

Yup and you said you had the answer , well so what is the answer. You can't prove what it is by what you think it isn't/ I showed you a prime example of the how tax structure influence distribution of wealth, Reagan the pig with his trickle down lie moved the top tier from 70% to 28%.

 

[jbander]

Yes, I responded to this earlier.





As I said in my first post on this thread, you have not explained how tax law is the source of income disparity. You still haven't. And because I point out that your answer doesn't work doesn't mean that I know the answer. I know my grandson's bicycle is not made of cheddar cheese because it would collapse under his weight and soften in the sun. That doesn't mean that I know exactly what it's made of.

You better check up on the rules of logic, saying something isn't the reason says that you know the reason, otherwise how in the hell can you say what isn't the reason. All your doing is throwing around the same bull**** that without , your party couldn't or wouldn't exist.

 

[jbander]

The geese haven't quite stopped laying the golden eggs yet, but I can see the event horizon from where I'm sitting right now.
I'm suspecting the next move is to try to kill off as many geese as possible however, whether for punishment or the value of their "meat".

After all, isn't that what massive recessions and outright crashes and economic depressions are? They're a huge fire sale where the folks at the top get to reacquire everything they sold at deep discount, so it can all be sold again.
Crashes and Great Depressions are a bonanza for people at the top, they couldn't be happier, just as long as they have all their ducks in a row and are prepared to do the big buyouts.

The New Deal rejiggered the wheels and gears so that the cycles rewarded the middle class instead. It was still very much a capitalist system, only it was built as a tool to even out the flow of money and filter it through the smaller hands first.
As Will Rogers pointed out, eventually the money filtered up to the top anyway but at least the little people got to get their hands on it for a while first.



Will Rogers in the St. Petersburg Times - Nov 26, 1932

I always get a kick out of the George Soros remark that is at the bottom of the page. He didn't But Koch did
the Nazi's and Hitler after he was thrown out of this country for using a drilling technique that wasn't his and was patented, , at the same time he collaborated with Lenin in Russia. Till even Russia threw him out for being a criminal there also . The beginning of his sons attacking anything to the left of Genghis Khan

 

[ultmd]

So, you counter the "right wing" Tax foundation with the LW CBPP. You do understand my link is merely repeating what the states are reporting

Obviously, you don't understand what you don't understand.

What I'm telling you is that your link is misleading (to put it kindly). For example, here is what the ACTUAL Preliminary Report from the state of NY ACTUALLY said about the Trump Tax Cut:

This new federal law will have a disproportionate impact on the tax system and economy of the State of New York – a state that already sends $48 billion more each year to Washington than it receives in federal dollars. In fact, the law appears to target those “donor” states that must raise state and local taxes to make up for this deficit in federal financial support for critical programs and services. Absent changes to New York’s tax code, the law’s limitations on the deductibility of state and local taxes will cost New York’s taxpayers an additional $14.3 billion per year and risk undermining the progressivity of New York’s tax system, the investments and services that the State provides for its residents, and the competitiveness of New York’s economy over the long term. The elimination of full state and local deductibility rolls back a basic tenet of federal tax law that has been part of the modern federal income tax since it was created in 1913, more than a century ago. States like New York have designed their tax systems according to this principle, which takes state taxes into account before federal taxes. With the transformation of the federal tax system, it is incumbent on New York to consider adjusting its own tax structure accordingly

No signs of a $1 Billion state surplus in the ACTUAL report.

And I'm also telling you that I posted FACTS (i.e. DOCUMENTED REVENUE SHORTFALLS from 30 states), while you posted claims of state PREDICTIONS by the right wing Tax Foundation, many of which are deceptive (if not just flat-out wrong).

So, let's be clear. You're not repeating what the states are reporting. You're repeating what your right wing source is telling you the states are reporting. Big difference. What most of those states are ACTUALLY reporting is much different.

Now, if you want to focus on PROJECTIONS, I suggest you consider that virtually EVERY professional analyses.....even Conservative think tanks (i.e. Tax Foundation) and/or REPUBLICAN analyses (i.e. the GOP-constrolled Senate Committee on Taxation).....agree that the Trump Tax Cuts are blowing a HUGE hole in the deficit, to the tune of $1.5 to $2.3 TRILLION. (depending on the source).

 

[vanceen]

Yup and you said you had the answer ,...

No, I did not. Feel free to correct me with a direct quote from one of my posts, if you can.

... well so what is the answer. You can't prove what it is by what you think it isn't/ I showed you a prime example of the how tax structure influence distribution of wealth, Reagan the pig with his trickle down lie moved the top tier from 70% to 28%.

Obviously going from a highly progressive rate structure to a less progressive rate structure will make the distribution of after-tax income worse.

But making the rate structure less progressive will not make pre-tax income disparity worse. Lowering taxes on the wealthiest will not reduce the incomes of the middle class and poor, because the tax isn't applied until income is a fait accompli.

And it is clear that there is a growing disparity in pre-tax income in the US. This will not be solved by more progressive tax rates. There are one or more structural problems at the bottom of the phenomenon, and the sooner we figure it out, the better chance we have to fix it.

For the third time, one candidate is the very rapid growth in information technology, which has made many jobs obsolete. Another factor is probably US companies investing in production overseas to capture low labor costs. I can't prove that either of these are (or aren't) the main cause. There may be others.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44705.pdf

 

[jbander]

No, I did not. Feel free to correct me with a direct quote from one of my posts, if you can.



Obviously going from a highly progressive rate structure to a less progressive rate structure will make the distribution of after-tax income worse.

But making the rate structure less progressive will not make pre-tax income disparity worse. Lowering taxes on the wealthiest will not reduce the incomes of the middle class and poor, because the tax isn't applied until income is a fait accompli.

And it is clear that there is a growing disparity in pre-tax income in the US. This will not be solved by more progressive tax rates. There are one or more structural problems at the bottom of the phenomenon, and the sooner we figure it out, the better chance we have to fix it.

For the third time, one candidate is the very rapid growth in information technology, which has made many jobs obsolete. Another factor is probably US companies investing in production overseas to capture low labor costs. I can't prove that either of these are (or aren't) the main cause. There may be others.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44705.pdf

View attachment 67233373

Follow closely, there are two ways that the distribution of wealth moves to the top , one is by tax structure, the other which is actually worse is debt. You move more of the wealth and the drivers of our economy into the hands of the wealthy. When that happens the debt which of course is transfer of wealth between the debtor and the debtee .In basic simple terms every dollar that is moved to the top becomes the structure that all debt is owned to. They invest it, increasing their share of everything. Example at the beginning of the trickle down lie 1981 it took 37% of the average worker income to service his debt , now it takes 160% of their income to service their debt. While wages have gone sideways or down. Except guess which group. Maybe you would like to tell me about this countries promise of the potential to get ahead. Which has totally been taken from the worker in this country.

 

[Bullseye]

Obviously, you don't understand what you don't understand.

What I'm telling you is that your link is misleading (to put it kindly). For example, here is what the ACTUAL Preliminary Report from the state of NY ACTUALLY said about the Trump Tax Cut:



No signs of a $1 Billion state surplus in the ACTUAL report.

LOL, that "report" came out three weeks after the cuts went into effect.

And I'm also telling you that I posted FACTS (i.e. DOCUMENTED REVENUE SHORTFALLS from 30 states), while you posted claims of state PREDICTIONS by the right wing Tax Foundation, many of which are deceptive (if not just flat-out wrong).

Uh, no.

So, let's be clear. You're not repeating what the states are reporting. You're repeating what your right wing source is telling you the states are reporting. Big difference. What most of those states are ACTUALLY reporting is much different.

Big difference between estimates in a preliminary report and actual reported revenue.

Now, if you want to focus on PROJECTIONS, I suggest you consider that virtually EVERY professional analyses.....even Conservative think tanks (i.e. Tax Foundation) and/or REPUBLICAN analyses (i.e. the GOP-constrolled Senate Committee on Taxation).....agree that the Trump Tax Cuts are blowing a HUGE hole in the deficit, to the tune of $1.5 to $2.3 TRILLION. (depending on the source).

Nonsense.

 

[jbander]

LOL, that "report" came out three weeks after the cuts went into effect.

Uh, no.

Big difference between estimates in a preliminary report and actual reported revenue.
Nonsense.

When someone says that to a fact that is totally easy to verify,doing it just for the sake of argument , what your saying is I don't have the mental capacity to understand the world around me.

 

[Bullseye]

When someone says that to a fact that is totally easy to verify,doing it just for the sake of argument , what your saying is I don't have the mental capacity to understand the world around me.

Back atcha, big guy.

 

[jbander]

Back atcha, big guy.

Your coming in here and trying to tell us that increased debt doesn't go along with scum bags and the hate party's tax cut. Won't work. We know it is just wacko right wing bull****.

 

[Mach]

And it is clear that there is a growing disparity in pre-tax income in the US. This will not be solved by more progressive tax rates. There are one or more structural problems at the bottom of the phenomenon, and the sooner we figure it out, the better chance we have to fix it.

What strong evidence do you have that suggests something other than progressive taxes or labor organization, can change that ongoing shift? And that they don't work?

I suspect we can find a number of examples of other countries that don't have that issue, and yet have thriving, modern economies that include technology. Do you not think we can?

 

[Bullseye]

Your coming in here and trying to tell us that increased debt doesn't go along with scum bags and the hate party's tax cut. Won't work. We know it is just wacko right wing bull****.

Dude, increased debt was already baked in. Trillion dollar deficits in the next few years were projected by CBO years ago. Now they predict around $4 trillion in addition revenue over the next decade. Spending is the problem. Increased revenues softens that. Sorry that conflicts with our wacko left wing bull****

 

[trixare4kids]

Dude, increased debt was already baked in. Trillion dollar deficits in the next few years were projected by CBO years ago. Now they predict around $4 trillion in addition revenue over the next decade. Spending is the problem. Increased revenues softens that. Sorry that conflicts with our wacko left wing bull****

You have really upset the apple cart by "coming in here."
Good work straightening out the sycophants who obviously get their anti-Trump tained economic news of the day from Media Mutters or Crap News Network.

 

[Bullseye]

You have really upset the apple cart by "coming in here."
Good work straightening out the sycophants who obviously get their anti-Trump tained economic news of the day from Media Mutters or Crap News Network.

If these thing had been happening under anyone but Trump these guys would be singing that person's praises. Trump Derangement Syndrome in full bloom. And not the silly alternate definition I've seen in one poster's signature - the fully bloom, slobber-slinging, mental overload kind.