The officers are innocent of all charges

[vegas giants]

I was talking about his reasoning of why the cop was basically in the right.

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Well hes wrong there too.


9 minutes with his knee on his neck

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

It changes things for me. The video all by itself is a good case for murder three. But it’s not so clear cut when the autopsy and toxicology reports are considered. The medical examiner concluded that the officer’s actions were a contributing factor in the context of an active heart attack and respiratory distress and both are indicative of a fatal overdose. The man had more than 5 times the level of fentanyl considered potentially fatal in his system - something the hired medical examiner didn’t even look for.

It’s doubtful to me that Floyd would have survived the encounter even if the police had rolled out the red carpet and treated him like a star. The fact the police called for paramedics within a minute of restraining him suggests they suspected something was medically wrong with him at the outset. But now I have to ask whether his death was a foreseeable consequence of the officer’s actions or if it would have happened at all if not for Floyd’s fatal overdose of fentanyl. It’s looking less like murder and more like manslaughter.

Floyd did not "fatally overdose" on fentanyl - and nothing in his tox screen mitigates Murder 3.

 

[mike2810]

I believe it did conclude that but thats somewhat misleading because what the defenses coroner is arguing is that it was caused by the hold on his neck.

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Bottom line both reports classified the death a homicide.

"Both autopsies called Floyd’s death a homicide. That performed by the Hennepin County medical examiner cites “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” The private autopsy states the cause of death was “mechanical asphyxia.”

Read: George Floyd autopsy report, with cause of death

 

[joko104]

I believe it did conclude that but thats somewhat misleading because what the defenses coroner is arguing is that it was caused by the hold on his neck.

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Yes, and the County prosecutor said that was a contributing factor. But a contributing factor isn't the cause. I'll try to find the link again, but even the defense team autopsy doctor said he had a heart attack.

It is known there are at least 4 other contributing factors:
1. He had a bad heart
2. He had covid-19, which affects the heart and blood vessels
3. He was on meth. Meth can kill someone including heart.
4. He was on fentanyl, which kills lots and lots of people.

Now, is was the pressure on his neck also a contributing factor? Probably so. So was the stress of being under arrest. So was ... (add more possibilities.)

"Contributing factor" is not the basis for a conviction. The cause of death was a heart attack. Was the blood to his brain cut off at any time by pressure on his neck? Possibly it was. But in a MURDER case, the question is what killed the person and what killed Floyd was a heart attack having a bad heart and 3 contributing factors already on top of that too.

Did the officer know he had a bad heart? That he had covid-19? That he was on meth and fentanyl? No. The did know he was a violent criminal, though. And a huge, tough man.

"Murder" (as opposed to manslaughter) has to PROVE the person did something known to be lethal. Nothing shows that. That also is the reason I think this is deliberate overcharging: 1. To satisfy the mob. 2.) to try to force a plea bargain down to such as manslaughter and 3.) to get a not-guilty verdict for at least 3 of them if they are willing to take the risk of a 40 year sentence and to sit in jail (facing terrible risks being cops) for a long as a year or longer.

 

[dairyair]

Thats ridiculous to say what led up to those 9 min is irrelevant without knowing what happened.

Me personally Im having a hard time getting past pulling him out of the car but I do see where joko is coming from as well

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Read again, I didn't say it was irrelevant.

I said it loses irrelevancy. The penalty for said crime was way worse than the crime.

At some point they need to realize the man is no longer capable of doing much. Maybe at the point he became unconscious? Even before that.

And this whole thread is opinion. Not a single thread of evidence that near 9 minutes of decreased blood flow to the brain was warranted.

Police today have body cams. Where's the cams of the 4 officers involved?

 

[trouble13]

Yes, and the County prosecutor said that was a contributing factor. But a contributing factor isn't the cause. I'll try to find the link again, but even the defense team autopsy doctor said he had a heart attack.

It is known there are at least 4 other contributing factors:
1. He had a bad heart
2. He had covid-19, which affects the heart and blood vessels
3. He was on meth. Meth can kill someone including heart.
4. He was on fentanyl, which kills lots and lots of people.

Now, is was the pressure on his neck also a contributing factor? Probably so. So was the stress of being under arrest. So was ... (add more possibilities.)

"Contributing factor" is not the basis for a conviction. The cause of death was a heart attack. Was the blood to his brain cut off at any time by pressure on his neck? Possibly it was. But in a MURDER case, the question is what killed the person and what killed Floyd was a heart attack having a bad heart and 3 contributing factors already on top of that too.

Did the officer know he had a bad heart? That he had covid-19? That he was on meth and fentanyl? No. The did know he was a violent criminal, though. And a huge, tough man.

"Murder" (as opposed to manslaughter) has to PROVE the person did something known to be lethal. Nothing shows that. That also is the reason I think this is deliberate overcharging: 1. To satisfy the mob. 2.) to try to force a plea bargain down to such as manslaughter and 3.) to get a not-guilty verdict for at least 3 of them if they are willing to take the risk of a 40 year sentence and to sit in jail (facing terrible risks being cops) for a long as a year or longer.

I get it and agree that its very questionable to charge the 2 rookies. Where I get stuck os why did they remove him from the back of the car where he was contained

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[trouble13]

Read again, I didn't say it was irrelevant.

I said it loses irrelevancy. The penalty for said crime was way worse than the crime.

At some point they need to realize the man is no longer capable of doing much. Maybe at the point he became unconscious? Even before that.

And this whole thread is opinion. Not a single thread of evidence that near 9 minutes of decreased blood flow to the brain was warranted.

Police today have body cams. Where's the cams of the 4 officers involved?

I agree that the amount force used was excessive

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[Napoleon]

Floyd did not "fatally overdose" on fentanyl - and nothing in his tox screen mitigates Murder 3.

Yes, he did and it does. The man was foaming at the mouth when police got there and his heart attack and respiratory distress was likely caused by fentanyl toxicity. That’s what happens when you have over 5 times the medically recognized lethal dose in your system. It only takes 2 milligrams to kill a man. Floyd had 11.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Yes, he did and it does. The man was foaming at the mouth when police got there and his heart attack and respiratory distress was likely caused by fentanyl toxicity. That’s what happens when you have over 5 times the medically recognized lethal dose in your system.

None of this is true. I watched the videos. That's not how opiate overdoses work.

If Floyd had "overdosed", he'd be in a coma within 5-10 minutes of taking the dose, at the latest. Overdoses don't cause "heart attacks".

The amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system was not "5 times the medically recognized lethal dose", either - because (again), that's not how overdoses work. The dosage levels that will cause an overdose vary wildly from one person to the next, depending on many factors including body weight, opiate tolerance, and others.

 

[Napoleon]

None of this is true. I watched the videos. That's not how opiate overdoses work.

If Floyd had "overdosed", he'd be in a coma within 5-10 minutes of taking the dose. Overdoses don't cause "heart attacks".

The amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system was not "5 times the medically recognized lethal dose", either - because (again), that's not how overdoses work. The dosage levels that will cause an overdose vary wildly from one person to the next, depending on many factors including body weight, opiate tolerance, and others.

It is 100% true. Here’s the medical examiner’s autopsy and toxicology reports.



2 milligrams is considered a fatal dose for most people. Floyd had 11.

 

[mike2810]

Yes, he did and it does. The man was foaming at the mouth when police got there and his heart attack and respiratory distress was likely caused by fentanyl toxicity. That’s what happens when you have over 5 times the medically recognized lethal dose in your system.

Reliability of Postmortem Fentanyl Concentrations in Determining the Cause of Death

"The substance abuse deaths had a mean fentanyl blood concentration (26.4 ng/ml or μg/L) that was over twice that of the natural group (11.8 ng/ml). "

"The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration. This does not, however, render the medical examiner/coroner unable to determine the cause and manner of death because the toxicology results are only one datum point among several that are considered. Although there was a weakly positive relationship between body mass index and fentanyl concentration, further research is needed to determine whether adipose tissue represents a significant depot for postmortem release of fentanyl."

Not sure how meaningful the dosage found in Floyd is meaningful.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

It is 100% true. Here’s the medical examiner’s autopsy and toxicology reports.

View attachment 67282796

2 milligrams is considered a fatal dose for most people. Floyd had 11.

Neither the Medical examiner's report, nor the toxicology report make the claim that Floyd had "overdosed" on fentanyl. You just made that up yourself.

As for fatal doses - first of all, that measurement is in micrograms, not milligrams - and again, dosage depends on many additional factors, particularly on tolerance.

 

[trouble13]

Some of the questions I have:
1. I would like to know more about the $20 dollar bill incident that set everything into motion.
Is it normal to arrest someone for passing a bad bill or is there more to the story?
Im nt in law enforcement but what would seem normal to me is that the bill gets confiscated. Your checked for any more fake money. You are questioned on where it came from and an investigation is started or possibly the info is passed along to the treasury dept. It does not seem like it would be normal to arrest someone for being in possession of a phoney $20.
2. Once they got him into the backseat whether he was cooperative or not, why remove him?
And...
If you are gonna remove him, rookies or not theres 4 of you there. Did they discuss how they were gonna do it. Was there a plan?
If the senior officer had concerns that the rookies were not caoable enough to do whatever they were doing why wasnt back up called?
3. What was the purpose of keeping him pinned to the ground the way he was

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[Nickyjo]

Lying is the #1 Democratic tactic and one you use on the forum.

An autopsy released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Wednesday showed that George Floyd officially died from a heart attack. The medical examiner, Dr. Andrew Baker, concluded in Wednesday's report that Floyd died of a heart attack complicated by restrained and compressed by the neck.

While the autopsy indicated several blunt-force injuries, the examiner said that there were no life-threatening injuries identified.

The report noted that Floyd had hypertensive heart disease.

The autopsy showed that Floyd had tested positive for the coronavirus on April 3. The report said that the autopsy result likely reflects an asymptomatic but persistent infection from the virus. (Despite knowing this, Floyd wore no mask.)


It also indicated that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamines in his system at the time of death.

Medical examiner releases autopsy report on George Floyd, differs from family’s independent autopsy

Floyd had a bad heart. He had covid-19, which can damage the heart. Fentanyl and meth can cause heart attacks. He died of a heart attack.

So Floyd would be dead today even if no one had called the cops? It seems that you're reasoning from the Trumpian School of Logic, e.g., that today is a great day for George Floyd.

 

[Napoleon]

Neither the Medical examiner's report, nor the toxicology report make the claim that Floyd had "overdosed" on fentanyl. You just made that up yourself.

As for fatal doses - first of all, that measurement is in micrograms, not milligrams - and again, dosage depends on many additional factors, particularly on tolerance.

“Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL.”

Floyd, a man with severe heart disease (also noted by the medical examiner), had 11 ng/mL of fentanyl and 5.6 ng/mL of norfentanyl in his system.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

“Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL.”

Floyd, a man with severe heart disease (also noted by the medical examiner), had 11 ng/mL of fentanyl and 5.6 ng/mL of norfentanyl in his system.

I believe you are not fully grasping what you've posted here.

 

[Lord of Planar]

There is no link to a full video or audio. THere can't be as it exposes the lie. But edited portions still show the truth.

If find those again would you watch? I don't think so.

You must be involved with law enforcement somehow and corrupt as them.

There are three different videos I have seen. The officers actions in my view should get a 1st degree murder hanging over his head, and the other three accessory to murder.

There is no justification for their action. Past crimes with a person of interest gives them no right to torture and kill.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Are you claiming the 3 day experience trainee who told the officer he shouldn't have his knee on Floyd's neck is guilt of murder for not shooting his supervisor in the head to stop him?

You don't give a damn if any of the 4 are guilty of anything. You love the riots, looting, burning and otherwise destroying the minority area of your city hoping to run off as many non-white people as possible. We know where white man you was. Hiding in your home.

He is guilty of not calling in a report than an officer is committing illegal action, and asking for help. He is an accessory to the crime.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I get it and agree that its very questionable to charge the 2 rookies. Where I get stuck os why did they remove him from the back of the car where he was contained

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They can be cleared of charges after being charged. Charging them in the aftermath would be the mistake. Still, I maintain they should have contacted someone higher up.

 

[trouble13]

They can be cleared of charges after being charged. Charging them in the aftermath would be the mistake. Still, I maintain they should have contacted someone higher up.

Why should they of contacted their boss?

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[Lord of Planar]

Why should they of contacted their boss?

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Because it's the right thing to do if they are too much of a ***** to pull the criminal cop off.

 

[joko104]

Read again, I didn't say it was irrelevant.

I said it loses irrelevancy. The penalty for said crime was way worse than the crime.

At some point they need to realize the man is no longer capable of doing much. Maybe at the point he became unconscious? Even before that.

And this whole thread is opinion. Not a single thread of evidence that near 9 minutes of decreased blood flow to the brain was warranted.

Police today have body cams. Where's the cams of the 4 officers involved?

The prosecuting DA and police will not allow anyone to see them without editing out nearly all of what they even will allow. Since none of this involved national security secrets, the question should be why is the prosecution and police hiding and blocking the videos? If they clearly showed guilt they would splash them all over the Internet.

 

[joko104]

Because it's the right thing to do if they are too much of a ***** to pull the criminal cop off.

That officer was their boss. :roll:

The people taking the videos all should be charged with assisting murder too as they did nothing to stop him either, did they? If we are going to throw out federal and even Supreme Court rulings to convict someone, then convict everyone who didn't act to stop the one officer.

 

[joko104]

They can be cleared of charges after being charged. Charging them in the aftermath would be the mistake. Still, I maintain they should have contacted someone higher up.

Who? How? Contact you?

They could have radioed police dispatch - which has absolutely not authority whatsoever. Each of the trainee's superior (boss) was the veteran officer they were with.

So now we have the new basis of a murder conviction of "you didn't contact the boss above your boss by mental telepathy?"

 

[ttwtt78640]

The prosecuting DA and police will not allow anyone to see them without editing out nearly all of what they even will allow. Since none of this involved national security secrets, the question should be why is the prosecution and police hiding and blocking the videos? If they clearly showed guilt they would splash them all over the Internet.

Maybe they wish to be able to find a jury who has not seen "previews" of the evidence.