The Manafort Indictment: Not Much There, and a Boon for Trump

[nota bene]

The FBI is far from a pure agency, but don't blame it for Trump being a treasonous buffoon that abetted foreign adversaries to corrupt the election.

In the United States a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Treason is a most heinous of crimes, and assuming that anybody is guilty until proven so is mighty reckless and not exactly an example of good citizenship either.

 

[Fearandloathing]

:agree: :thumbs: It's all about who "controls" everything these days, I guess, and that just means that the wealthy elite on this planet are fighting each other in a battle for supremacy, and dragging the rest of us into their quagmire, using propaganda, constant riots, and anything else that furthers their agenda.

I once read that there have been seven great civilizations that ruled the known world in the past, and all failed, mainly caused by greed by the elite, causing increasingly worsening governance as their civilizations aged. I hope we're not next, NIMBY!

Hi Polgara, looks like we are on opposite sides of the political fence now.

Some long term friendships have perished because of the rampant hypocrisy, defending actions and words once condemned only because it's "your guy" in the White House now. I do not even want to think of the unabashed outrage and demands for action had president Obama chosen to get into a Twitter war with the mother of a fallen soldier. But people who lashed out heatedly at Obama, often deeply personal remarks, including his wife and "ugly kids" as someone in here put it, now excuse the inexcusable, defend the indefensible in an atmosphere of barely concealed bigotry.

So that's why you now post about how the fabric of the nation is threadbare. There's your reason; when you support measures and actions that erode the nation from within and embarrass from without, you are going to get criminals running the prison. I have said before the electorate are responsible for the elected and this time the choice is perilous. No one is putting the country first in this circus.

I used to fear for Americans and their political system. I don't anymore, once something dies and becomes as putrid as the US there's no point in fear other than the disease could spread north.

So far we are safe, the backlash to Trump has been swift and fierce. Already we are seeing some interesting bumper stickers: One is an image of Trump with his mouth wide open, his eyes on fire and the caption "can any Americans be trusted? They Elected this idiot" Another sported "DON'T buy American" and "Boycott Trump America".

We have our political factions too, in fact five certified national parties and all but one of them has moved deeper into the traditional bashing America, it is for us what bashing Mexican's is to you. Trump wants a wall to keep them up, some of us want a wall to keep you out

 

[GDViking]

I'm not trying to divert attention from Manafort et al. That's one issue. Clinton is another. Lois Lerner and the abuses of the IRS under former President Obama are yet another. I'm able to look at all these issues; sorry if you find yourself in an either/or bind or if focusing on Trump makes it impossible for you to focus on other important issues as well.

There was no IRS scandal. The T party organizations arr by definition anti.tax. It's a no brainer that they would receive higher scrutiny.

Just like if I ran an organization that lobbied to legalize the importation of cocaine wouldn't seem obvious that the DEA would be keeping close tabs on me?

 

[nota bene]

There was no IRS scandal. The T party organizations arr by definition anti.tax. It's a no brainer that they would receive higher scrutiny.

Just like if I ran an organization that lobbied to legalize the importation of cocaine wouldn't seem obvious that the DEA would be keeping close tabs on me?

I don't think you understand the issue or why it matters. The IRS should never be politicized.

 

[GDViking]

I don't think you understand the issue or why it matters. The IRS should never be politicized.

I don't think you understand it wasn't politicised.anti tax organizations received more scrutiny than organizations that stand for more taxation in most cases. I would expect that no matter who is in charge.

Anyway this dead subject has only been dug up to distract from trumps traitorous criminal organization.

 

[polgara]

Hi Polgara, looks like we are on opposite sides of the political fence now.

Some long term friendships have perished because of the rampant hypocrisy, defending actions and words once condemned only because it's "your guy" in the White House now. I do not even want to think of the unabashed outrage and demands for action had president Obama chosen to get into a Twitter war with the mother of a fallen soldier. But people who lashed out heatedly at Obama, often deeply personal remarks, including his wife and "ugly kids" as someone in here put it, now excuse the inexcusable, defend the indefensible in an atmosphere of barely concealed bigotry.

So that's why you now post about how the fabric of the nation is threadbare. There's your reason; when you support measures and actions that erode the nation from within and embarrass from without, you are going to get criminals running the prison. I have said before the electorate are responsible for the elected and this time the choice is perilous. No one is putting the country first in this circus.

I used to fear for Americans and their political system. I don't anymore, once something dies and becomes as putrid as the US there's no point in fear other than the disease could spread north.

So far we are safe, the backlash to Trump has been swift and fierce. Already we are seeing some interesting bumper stickers: One is an image of Trump with his mouth wide open, his eyes on fire and the caption "can any Americans be trusted? They Elected this idiot" Another sported "DON'T buy American" and "Boycott Trump America".

We have our political factions too, in fact five certified national parties and all but one of them has moved deeper into the traditional bashing America, it is for us what bashing Mexican's is to you. Trump wants a wall to keep them up, some of us want a wall to keep you out

Greetings, Fearandloathing. :2wave:

Whatever made you think I have switched sides! I totally agree with your post! I voted for Kasich, my Governor from Ohio, because he's done such a good job for us, and I felt he would be a great POTUS. Unfortunately he didn't even come close to winning, but that's life. Trump won fair and square with votes from millions of people, and even I was shocked, but he is our President. I doubt you can come up with anything I ever said that disparaged Obama or his family at any time during his term of office since I believe the Office itself deserves respect regardless of who holds the position. I don't know what the next chapter will be in this saga!

My main concern now is that so many believe that becoming just a small part of a One World Government is preferable to having a Constitution and Bill of Rights which has protected us for hundreds of years. There's a reason why so many decided in the early years of the 1900s to legally enter America through Ellis Island - they wanted a better future for their loved ones, and they were willing to work hard to succeed, my grandparents included! Times and people have changed, not our laws!

You have misjudged me, and I'm saddened that you have, but that's okay. I'm still your friend, like it or not, because I well remember how optimistic about life that you used to be, and that's what I enjoyed about meeting and knowing you, and that has not changed, so I am not going to remove you from my "friends" list! Be well! *BIG HUG*

 

[eohrnberger]

Has the uranium been shipped out of the country?

Draw your own conclusion.

Asked about that, the commission confirmed that Uranium One has, in fact, shipped yellowcake to Canada even though it does not have an export license. Instead, the transport company doing the shipping, RSB Logistic Services, has the license. A commission spokesman said that “to the best of our knowledge” most of the uranium sent to Canada for processing was returned for use in the United States. A Uranium One spokeswoman, Donna Wichers, said 25 percent had gone to Western Europe and Japan. At the moment, with the uranium market in a downturn, nothing is being shipped from the Wyoming mines.
Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal - New York Times

"A Uranium One spokeswoman, Donna Wichers, said 25 percent had gone to Western Europe and Japan. "

Once there, are the same US export controls which have failed still enforced? I rather doubt it. More likely its re-labeled and shipped on.

 

[eohrnberger]

Oh my, the professional apologists have been awakened.

Long discredited would be a perfect description of Trump. But what I want to know is what about Trump and his grandiose promise he had "the greatest people" every time he was stuck for an answer.

Looks like "great" has a different meaning for you guys....we used to use the phrase Obamabot. Just sayin

I fail to see any sort of an 'apology' in my post.

Like any presidency, the president will some things that I agree with, and somethings that I don't. That's not much of being "professional apologists".

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

The charges against Manafort are very serious. If he knows anything he has to talk to save his skin. He may need witness protection if he’s going to betray the Russians who paid him millions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fearandloathing]

Greetings, Fearandloathing. :2wave:

Whatever made you think I have switched sides! I totally agree with your post! I voted for Kasich, my Governor from Ohio, because he's done such a good job for us, and I felt he would be a great POTUS. Unfortunately he didn't even come close to winning, but that's life. Trump won fair and square with votes from millions of people, and even I was shocked, but he is our President. I doubt you can come up with anything I ever said that disparaged Obama or his family at any time during his term of office since I believe the Office itself deserves respect regardless of who holds the position. I don't know what the next chapter will be in this saga!

My main concern now is that so many believe that becoming just a small part of a One World Government is preferable to having a Constitution and Bill of Rights which has protected us for hundreds of years. There's a reason why so many decided in the early years of the 1900s to legally enter America through Ellis Island - they wanted a better future for their loved ones, and they were willing to work hard to succeed, my grandparents included! Times and people have changed, not our laws!

You have misjudged me, and I'm saddened that you have, but that's okay. I'm still your friend, like it or not, because I well remember how optimistic about life that you used to be, and that's what I enjoyed about meeting and knowing you, and that has not changed, so I am not going to remove you from my "friends" list! Be well! *BIG HUG*

My apologies, I read your post as favoring and supporting the worst human being to ever enter the Oval office.

I don't think the results of his election has begun to sink in...but everything has changed. We, Canada are not your friends anymore....Trump is attempting to destroy our dairy industry (and we don't even export it, he wants us to import only US milk with all those carcinogens), has begun a shut down of 16,000 jobs in the forest industry, and wasted everyone's time with NAFTA talks when he never had any intention of negotiating anything. Bad faith talks is worse than theft.

Seriously, I have never heard anyone anywhere talk about 'one world government" in your country or anyone else's, and I can't even begin to wonder what that's about. I do apologize for having misjudged you, but because of Trump everyone's opinion of Americans is plummeting. For the first time in my life I am ashamed of my American heritage and even more embarrassed that I lived and was educated there.

And, I disagree, when an occupant of an office shames himself and the office, respect gets rightfully tossed into the slime pit created by the occupant. With Trump's activities like twitter fighting with widows, using the office for **** like "taking a knee" and all his other pet peeves there is nothing left to respect. This is a man who boasted about sexual predation and assault, a man who who cannot speak the truth, and one who has a lot of anger and revenge driving him...and yes, Americans have to wear that. If you get spit on, your car keyed, are refused service or have some vegetables thrown at you here or in Europe, tell Trump.

In closing, the 37 million people in this country object to being used as pawns in your never ending election cycle and object most strongly being told what to do by fat, ugly American, sexist, racist asshole. As you noted, times have changed indeed they have, it isn't being said yet, but we are enemies now

 

[azgreg]

Trump’s defense that his campaign manager was already a criminal before coming on board is insanely good.

 

[beefheart]

Trump’s defense that his campaign manager was already a criminal before coming on board is insanely good.

Birds of a feather.....

 

[Oreo]

Do not be fooled by the “Conspiracy against the United States” heading.

The Paul Manafort indictment is much ado about nothing . . . except as a vehicle to squeeze Manafort, which is special counsel Robert Mueller’s objective — as we have been arguing for three months (see here, here, and here). Do not be fooled by the “Conspiracy against the United States” heading on Count One (page 23 of the indictment). This case has nothing to do with what Democrats and the media call “the attack on our democracy” (i.e., the Kremlin’s meddling in the 2016 election, supposedly in “collusion” with the Trump campaign). Essentially, Manafort and his associate, Richard W. Gates, are charged with (a) conspiring to conceal from the U.S. government about $75 million they made as unregistered foreign agents for Ukraine, years before the 2016 election (mainly, from 2006 through 2014), and (b) a money-laundering conspiracy.



Paul Manafort Indictment: No Signs of Trump-Russia ?Collusion? | National Review

That all ended tonight. The court released other documents regarding Manafort's & Gates indictment tonight.

Manafort's Russian connection. The court document was talking about flight risk. In the document it specifically states that Russian Oligarch’s had paid Manafort millions of dollars. In fact their bank account in Cypris--has 3 names listed as owners, Manafort, Gates and a Russian national Oligarch's. Also new in this court document it discuss's that Manafort is a flight risk because he not only operates a business out of the Ukraine but has employees and an office in Moscow. So basically the Court ordered an ankle bracelet or some other electronic device to monitor Manafort's movements, citing the flight risk is great, he has foreign ties, and would have no financial problems living abroad, if he fled the USA.

If you want to watch it--here is Rachel Maddow with the new court documents in hand. 10/31/2017
Newly unsealed court documents tie Manafort, Gates to Russia | MSNBC

They have documents that go back years, bank statements both domestic & foreign, mortgage loan applications, line of credit applications, income tax returns--they have it all.

 

[humbolt]

.


Show me where the "nation's business is being done. What I see is Trump and his associates business being done with an on-going dis-information campaign and cover up, not just at this investigation but at every avenue of business.

He has outright lied about trade talks, abandoned long standing partnership and endangered the nation shady dealings with Russia wile trying to start a nuke war in Korea. Meanwhile with no alternative plan whatsoever he is screwing your long standing trade and policy partners.

IF you really want you say you do, put him on a ****ing leash now if for no other reason that the man is clinically insane

I'm no fan of Trump personally. I am a fan of some of the things he's trying to do. No doubt Trump's a nut of sorts, but I don't think he's insane at all. Besides, we have Congress, and one of their jobs is to offer a check and a balance against the executive branch. I agree that the GOP lead Congress hasn't been effective in much of anything, but they do seem to have the ability to tone down some of Trump's over the top stuff. Trump may be a mill stone of sorts around the necks of some looking to be re-elected in 2018, so things could get interesting in the Senate. I suggest patience, F&L. So much seems to be up in the air just now, we're just going to have to wait to see where some of this lands.

 

[Mason66]

These Trump supporters don't want to think about that. They're in full denial. It's sad, really.



Why George Papadopoulos' guilty plea is a much bigger problem for Trump than the Manafort indictment

This is a modern day Watergate. Instead of breaking into an office we have Russians hacking into emails.

How does that equate to a Watergate?

Which political party are the Russians?

 

[Mason66]

I don't think you understand it wasn't politicised.anti tax organizations received more scrutiny than organizations that stand for more taxation in most cases. I would expect that no matter who is in charge.

Anyway this dead subject has only been dug up to distract from trumps traitorous criminal organization.

Does it matter to you that those organizations were never approved, even after all this time?

 

[Vern]

Already cited that US uranium has been shipped out of country, and likely offshore. But, sure, invent facts to support whatever argument you think you are making.

Oh eorhn, I realize its pointless to argue with you when you have a “quote” to cling to. I Remember how you clung to “Bush was president in 2000” with no quote. If fact you even clung to that even after you cut and pasted the wiki link proving you were wrong. So I know its pointless for me to point out Uranium One has no export license. Its pointless for me to point out the trucking company that collects uranium from multiple sources can only export it to a refining plant in Canada. Its pointless for me to point out that Canada has to get our permission before they ship it anywhere else but back to America because again, you have a “quote”.

But eorhn, I have proven that Uranium One uranium is not shipped to “destinations unknown” as you claimed. That was just the sort of hyperbole you need to convince yourself “Russians buying uranium mine bad.” Its why you have to ignore the facts and cling to a “quote”. Eohrn, now that we agree “destinations unknown” was baseless conservative hyperbole, can we please discuss the complete falsehoods you posted

The dossier “either debunked" or not yet debunked”
Unmasking is illegal

Given that, how is it in the US' best interests to allow Russian to gain control of some 20% of the US uranium? Would seem to be an even worse deal to approve and implement.

So please explain to me how letting Russia, the international challenger and opponent of the US, control some 20% of the us uranium is a good idea. (Except maybe for the Clintons and their foundation).

Now eohrn, read this slowly. It doesn’t matter who digs it out of the ground. We control where the uranium goes. That’s why Uranium One is not a big deal no matter how many lies you cling to about Hillary. Now read this slower. in 2010, Russia hadn't annexed Crimea and Russian armed rebels hadn't shot down a passenger plane.

Once shipped out of the country, how exactly are US restrictions enforced on transshipments? On foreign soil? So, yes, destinations unknown (as in uncontrolled destinations) I think is fair.

Of course you think its fair. you thought Bush was president in 2000 no matter how many times I told you otherwise. As I said, you're not going to let go of that "quote." The trucking company needs an export license to send it to Canada. Canada needs permission to send it anywhere but back. I know, read the export license yourself

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1618/ML16188A241.pdf

 

[Fearandloathing]

I'm no fan of Trump personally. I am a fan of some of the things he's trying to do. No doubt Trump's a nut of sorts, but I don't think he's insane at all. Besides, we have Congress, and one of their jobs is to offer a check and a balance against the executive branch. I agree that the GOP lead Congress hasn't been effective in much of anything, but they do seem to have the ability to tone down some of Trump's over the top stuff. Trump may be a mill stone of sorts around the necks of some looking to be re-elected in 2018, so things could get interesting in the Senate. I suggest patience, F&L. So much seems to be up in the air just now, we're just going to have to wait to see where some of this lands.

.


'But we have congress! Congress will save us' after decades of the right declaring congress a non starter, ineffective, far too partisan, and you close by admitting "hasn't been effective in much of anything."

Trump hasn't toned down at all and shows a flagrant disregard for the esteem of the office, when he's not creating a national debate because of HIS opinion about football players and attacking the mother of a dead US soldier publicly on twitter he's deflecting the real issues. That was last week.

It is this thinking, this lowering of expectations and an acceptance for behavior for which black Barrack Obama would be impeached. You have gone from picking mediocre, party loyalists to to the incompetent and make the same excuses.

My apologies but more than 12 years listening to all Americans decry everything to do with congress, but now with a mental case who could start WW3 over a ****ing tweet congress is suddenly the great answer.

Your country is in crisis and none of you can see it. You are stalled in a vortex of partisanship that is becoming more and more stagnant. What one president does gets wiped out by the next and around we go. Since I left the United States for Canada in 1967, nothing has been done on the illegal immigrants file, health care is an even bigger mess than before Obama, you still have the world's largest drug problem, the largest amount of incarceration in the developed world, the highest crime and murder rates and rusted crumbling infrastructure with the highest debt in history.

Not ONE of those things have changed in five decades!

And your current president, based on tweets priorities are kneeling football players and a perceived insult from the mother of a fallen soldier.

I would not live there for any amount of money

 

[Moderate Right]

The guy lobbied for the Ukraine for 10 years and never registered as a foreign agent any never reported any of the millions in fees to the IRS

Exactly! There was no collusion with the Russians in order to influence the elections.

 

[humbolt]

.


'But we have congress! Congress will save us' after decades of the right declaring congress a non starter, ineffective, far too partisan, and you close by admitting "hasn't been effective in much of anything."

Trump hasn't toned down at all and shows a flagrant disregard for the esteem of the office, when he's not creating a national debate because of HIS opinion about football players and attacking the mother of a dead US soldier publicly on twitter he's deflecting the real issues. That was last week.

It is this thinking, this lowering of expectations and an acceptance for behavior for which black Barrack Obama would be impeached. You have gone from picking mediocre, party loyalists to to the incompetent and make the same excuses.

My apologies but more than 12 years listening to all Americans decry everything to do with congress, but now with a mental case who could start WW3 over a ****ing tweet congress is suddenly the great answer.

Your country is in crisis and none of you can see it. You are stalled in a vortex of partisanship that is becoming more and more stagnant. What one president does gets wiped out by the next and around we go. Since I left the United States for Canada in 1967, nothing has been done on the illegal immigrants file, health care is an even bigger mess than before Obama, you still have the world's largest drug problem, the largest amount of incarceration in the developed world, the highest crime and murder rates and rusted crumbling infrastructure with the highest debt in history.

Not ONE of those things have changed in five decades!

And your current president, based on tweets priorities are kneeling football players and a perceived insult from the mother of a fallen soldier.

I would not live there for any amount of money

We are in a crisis. And it is at least partially because of rampant partisanship. I don't have the quick fix, and even if I did, no one would listen. I lead nothing but my own life these days. I just speak my mind, usually get vilified for doing so. That, at least, doesn't bother me. I can acknowledge every problem you mention, but in spite of your opinion of the country, I very much love this country and don't want to live anywhere but where I do right this minute. This corner of Virginia is a somewhat forgotten place all in all, and that suits me very well.

Politically speaking, I'm as frustrated as most. The chief problem right now here is that we are embroiled in so many scandals and potential scandals that nothing else is getting done. I want the crap cleaned up and the people responsible for it out of government no matter who they are. Then perhaps we'll be able to focus on all the truly pressing things which need to be solved. It seems that the only members of the public we hear from in the media are the few on the extreme fringes more often than not. That needs to change. All the public at large needs to do is refuse to listen or watch to cure that problem. Getting the government to quit playing with itself and accomplish things is a taller order.

 

[Fearandloathing]

We are in a crisis. And it is at least partially because of rampant partisanship. I don't have the quick fix, and even if I did, no one would listen. I lead nothing but my own life these days. I just speak my mind, usually get vilified for doing so. That, at least, doesn't bother me. I can acknowledge every problem you mention, but in spite of your opinion of the country, I very much love this country and don't want to live anywhere but where I do right this minute. This corner of Virginia is a somewhat forgotten place all in all, and that suits me very well.

Politically speaking, I'm as frustrated as most. The chief problem right now here is that we are embroiled in so many scandals and potential scandals that nothing else is getting done. I want the crap cleaned up and the people responsible for it out of government no matter who they are. Then perhaps we'll be able to focus on all the truly pressing things which need to be solved. It seems that the only members of the public we hear from in the media are the few on the extreme fringes more often than not. That needs to change. All the public at large needs to do is refuse to listen or watch to cure that problem. Getting the government to quit playing with itself and accomplish things is a taller order.

I did not mean to place judgement on your country or its citizens, but its so-called leaders. Forgive me if that's how it came out.

Regarde' les bold: You're right, scandals and stupidity have ruled the headlines since Trump won. On that, I suggest you and your neighbors read Machiavelli's "The Prince." There is a reason there's been no progress on the files I mentioned, it's because there is no incentive for them to do anything and action has its risks.

By endlessly fighting petty issues, and not only Trump, but crap like the non-issue of "shutting down the government" where the civil service gets a free holiday; your leaders however believe this is the way to keep you focused fear, in this case a decades long battle painting each other's parties as "evil". Not everything Bush did was bad, nor Obama, in fact Obama got a lot right, IMHO, and you will know I called him out at every mistake.

Not all parties have all the answers and all of them have vested interests, and both parties often have good ideas, but they're "evil". That stigma has grown like fungus in recent years and no matter who suggests what, no matter who has a new idea, if it doesn't fit the agenda of one of your tow parties, it's crap.

You are not going to fix the illegal aliens issue with a wall, it's far too complex for that, but it assuages the fears of a strategic group of people crucial to re-election. Meanwhile, the debate is over tweets, football players, and general ass hole behavior making the most famous building in the world into the home of a clown.

How will anything be resolved when, with each new president the bickering becomes more acidic, hateful and rabid? The nation needs healing from what some very evil politicians have been doing to you without KY for the past 40 years

 

[eohrnberger]

Oh eorhn, I realize its pointless to argue with you when you have a “quote” to cling to. I Remember how you clung to “Bush was president in 2000” with no quote. If fact you even clung to that even after you cut and pasted the wiki link proving you were wrong. So I know its pointless for me to point out Uranium One has no export license. Its pointless for me to point out the trucking company that collects uranium from multiple sources can only export it to a refining plant in Canada. Its pointless for me to point out that Canada has to get our permission before they ship it anywhere else but back to America because again, you have a “quote”.

But eorhn, I have proven that Uranium One uranium is not shipped to “destinations unknown” as you claimed. That was just the sort of hyperbole you need to convince yourself “Russians buying uranium mine bad.” Its why you have to ignore the facts and cling to a “quote”. Eohrn, now that we agree “destinations unknown” was baseless conservative hyperbole, can we please discuss the complete falsehoods you posted

The dossier “either debunked" or not yet debunked”
Unmasking is illegal



Now eohrn, read this slowly. It doesn’t matter who digs it out of the ground. We control where the uranium goes. That’s why Uranium One is not a big deal no matter how many lies you cling to about Hillary. Now read this slower. in 2010, Russia hadn't annexed Crimea and Russian armed rebels hadn't shot down a passenger plane.



Of course you think its fair. you thought Bush was president in 2000 no matter how many times I told you otherwise. As I said, you're not going to let go of that "quote." The trucking company needs an export license to send it to Canada. Canada needs permission to send it anywhere but back. I know, read the export license yourself

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1618/ML16188A241.pdf

"its pointless to argue with you when you have a “quote” to cling to."
Says the guy who could only post up about one citation again and again and again! :lamo

Forget it Vern. You aren't worth the time. Too much like talking to a brick wall, and an insulting, arrogant, condescending, brick wall at that.

 

[humbolt]

I did not mean to place judgement on your country or its citizens, but its so-called leaders. Forgive me if that's how it came out.

Regarde' les bold: You're right, scandals and stupidity have ruled the headlines since Trump won. On that, I suggest you and your neighbors read Machiavelli's "The Prince." There is a reason there's been no progress on the files I mentioned, it's because there is no incentive for them to do anything and action has its risks.

By endlessly fighting petty issues, and not only Trump, but crap like the non-issue of "shutting down the government" where the civil service gets a free holiday; your leaders however believe this is the way to keep you focused fear, in this case a decades long battle painting each other's parties as "evil". Not everything Bush did was bad, nor Obama, in fact Obama got a lot right, IMHO, and you will know I called him out at every mistake.

Not all parties have all the answers and all of them have vested interests, and both parties often have good ideas, but they're "evil". That stigma has grown like fungus in recent years and no matter who suggests what, no matter who has a new idea, if it doesn't fit the agenda of one of your tow parties, it's crap.

You are not going to fix the illegal aliens issue with a wall, it's far too complex for that, but it assuages the fears of a strategic group of people crucial to re-election. Meanwhile, the debate is over tweets, football players, and general ass hole behavior making the most famous building in the world into the home of a clown.

How will anything be resolved when, with each new president the bickering becomes more acidic, hateful and rabid? The nation needs healing from what some very evil politicians have been doing to you without KY for the past 40 years

I lay most of this at the feet of declining civility within our culture and our politics. I blame, since I simply must blame someone or something for the decline - rightly or wrongly - on our generation. We failed to responsibly lead, and we're reaping what we've sown. What's worse is that our generation can't fix the problems we've created or permitted to grow. That will fall to others who I fervently hope can chart a better course for the country and our culture. It's a cynical view perhaps, but it's one I can't dismiss as much as I'd like to. We've nearly spent ourselves into oblivion, and we have little to show for it, as our current situation attests.

 

[GDViking]

Does it matter to you that those organizations were never approved, even after all this time?

No not if they were just fly by night packs hiding who was actually funding them and were not legally tax eexempt. Tells me that the IRS was correct, otherwise trump would have put pressure on.

 

[Mason66]

No not if they were just fly by night packs hiding who was actually funding them and were not legally tax eexempt. Tells me that the IRS was correct, otherwise trump would have put pressure on.

That IF is huge.

Do you have any proof that they were what you say they were?

Could all of them have been fronts just to launder money as none of them were approved?

How about the fact that the IRS did not follow their procedures which would have been to officially deny the status so the group cold appeal. They kept these groups in limbo so they could do nothing.

Is that OK with you?