The Genius of the Electoral College

[Fishking]

The popular vote is the rule within the states.

(0.o) No it isn't.

Also, apparently you would be fine with California choosing the President for the rest of the country if it happened to be a tie breaking state with its massive 55 electoral votes.

Yes, they get their voice with their properly apportioned 55 electoral votes, just like any other state could be the tie-breaker with their apportioned votes. That's not the point that is being made. A popular vote would have California wipe out the rest of the entire country's voice due to it's high population and it's radical nature.

 

[VanceMack]

Maybe I misinterpreted his post, but I took what he said to mean, would I be fine with, in the actuality of the country's president being determined by popular vote, I would find it acceptable if California's 55 electoral votes were to be broken down into its popular vote results.

To be honest, I found the wording of his post a little confusing.

What is confusing you?

 

[Fishking]

Well Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida altogether beats California by 12 votes. Why wouldn't those states be labeled as mob states that picked the next President? They knocked out California.

Huh? You're making my point for me. It takes three states to get enough to counter-balance California. In your scenario California would chew up those three states and take out the rest of the 27 states that Trump won.

 

[Cardinal]

(0.o) No it isn't.



Yes, they get their voice with their properly apportioned 55 electoral votes, just like any other state could be the tie-breaker with their apportioned votes. That's not the point that is being made. A popular vote would have California wipe out the rest of the entire country's voice due to it's high population and it's radical nature.

In the event of a nationwide popular vote, it wouldn't be the "state of California." It would be the total distribution of citizens across the United States.

And yes, the popular vote is the rule in states when determining the winner take all result.

 

[Cardinal]

Most...but not all. Maine and Nebraska allow for splitting their EC vote and ALL have the right to do so.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Bob N]

Huh? You're making my point for me. It takes three states to get enough to counter-balance California. In your scenario California would chew up those three states and take out the rest of the 27 states that Trump won.

A mob is a mob no matter where they are located, right?

 

[Cardinal]

What is confusing you?

Maybe if you just reworded the question. In retrospect I'm not really certain what your question was asking.

 

[Cardinal]

WHat I cited is the facts regarding California LAW. The state issues drivers licenses to all. They register to vote EVERY licensed driver and their law provides protections for people that vote illegally. YOU made the assertion that foreign voters are cancelling out the military absentee ballots votes. If what you are asserting is illegal and correct, it should be addressed, should it no? YOUR assertion. Your burden of proof.

What you cited were facts with implications. If you have evidence of what those implications mean, you're free to get it.

 

[Master PO]

It wouldn't change the popular vote by much though. Look, Trump is the new President. But the electoral college does need to go. Why not use an electoral college to vote on lawmakers too?

Mixed government of the founders.

the House of Representatives elected by 1( the people.

the Senate appointed by the 2( state legislatures.

Electoral college electors elected by 1( the people and elected by 2( the states legislatures

 

[VanceMack]

What you cited were facts with implications. If you have evidence of what those implications mean, you're free to get it.

I cited facts. Period. You made an allegation. I can absolutely present California law which both grants all citizens drivers licenses and voting rights AND which grants immunity for casting an illegal ballot. YOU asserted foreign voters were casting ballots to cancel out military absentee ballots. All I said was IF your assertion is true and the activity is illegal then it should be dealt with.

Wouldnt you agree?

 

[ttwtt78640]

In the event of a nationwide popular vote, it wouldn't be the "state of California." It would be the total distribution of citizens across the United States.

And yes, the popular vote is the rule in states when determining the winner take all result.

Yet that "all" is capped at that state's "fair share" of the nation's total EC votes thus a landslide (or squeaker) win in any state does affect any other state's EC votes at all.

 

[VanceMack]

Maybe if you just reworded the question. In retrospect I'm not really certain what your question was asking.

And yet you managed to answer it perfectly. Honestly even. Still not sure as to the disconnect.

 

[Cardinal]

I cited facts. Period. You made an allegation. I can absolutely present California law which both grants all citizens drivers licenses and voting rights AND which grants immunity for casting an illegal ballot. YOU asserted foreign voters were casting ballots to cancel out military absentee ballots. All I said was IF your assertion is true and the activity is illegal then it should be dealt with.

Wouldnt you agree?

If you have sources for your facts I'd love to see them.

 

[Cardinal]

Yet that "all" is capped at that state's "fair share" of the nation's total EC votes thus a landslide (or squeaker) win in any state does affect any other state's EC votes at all.

Yes, I know. What I was saying harked back to an earlier point I was making a few pages back.

 

[Cardinal]

And yet you managed to answer it perfectly. Honestly even. Still not sure as to the disconnect.

Well at this point I'm no longer certain I was answering the question I thought you were asking.

 

[VanceMack]

If you have sources for your facts I'd love to see them.

Easy enough.

California AB-60 Driver's License | DMV.org

 

[VanceMack]

Well at this point I'm no longer certain I was answering the question I thought you were asking.

Nope. You nailed it.

 

[Cardinal]

Nope. You nailed it.

Nope, I officially take back my answer because I'm no longer certain what you were asking. If you refuse to clarify your question then it's obvious you're just being deceptive.

Easy enough.

California AB-60 Driver's License | DMV.org

Data dump. Cite the exact passage relevant to your claims. Also, you still need to cite "...and voting rights AND which grants immunity for casting an illegal ballot."

 

[Fishking]

In the event of a nationwide popular vote, it wouldn't be the "state of California." It would be the total distribution of citizens across the United States.

No it wouldn't. Apparently you missed the whole OP showing that Trump won the national vote across the rest of the country. A popular vote would have California choosing the President. That is a mathematical fact.

And yes, the popular vote is the rule in states when determining the winner take all result.

Right, by state, not the entire country when voting for President.

 

[Fishking]

A mob is a mob no matter where they are located, right?

Three people is a mob, eh?

 

[Bob N]

Three people is a mob, eh?

Does a mob have a number? I believe the word is plural, right?

 

[haymarket]

Yep, because that has yet to happen. The popular vote alternative offered, however, would have allowed a popular vote surplus in a single state to overrule the popular vote pluralities in 10 other states in the most recent POTUS election.

WAIT A DING DONG MINUTE!!!! I thought this whole thing behind the EC is scenarios that just might happen or could happen or may happen like California deciding for the entire nation who would be President or the candidates never going to Wyoming or the Dakota's or the little states (just like they don't now) or that the tyranny of the minority (whatever the hell that is ) will take place if we go to a popular vote?

You do realize that under the EC a single state can mater more than more than a dozen little states and the thing you fear is there right now with the EC?

Right now today California has more EC votes than the 13 smallest altogether! Your fear is already firmly in place in the EC.

 

[Bob N]

Huh? You're making my point for me. It takes three states to get enough to counter-balance California. In your scenario California would chew up those three states and take out the rest of the 27 states that Trump won.

No. Those three states overtook CA. But CA is still considered a mob state and those three are not? Boondoggle.

 

[Cardinal]

No it wouldn't. Apparently you missed the whole OP showing that Trump won the national vote across the rest of the country. A popular vote would have California choosing the President. That is a mathematical fact.

No, Trump won the electoral college vote, which bases results on a highly structured formula and for extremely narrow demographic distributions. A popular vote is just a popular vote. It ignores state lines, rural vs. urban, county results, poor vs. rich, liberal vs. conservative, black vs. white, etc.

Right, by state, not the entire country when voting for President.

Yes, and going to my previous point, if you believed in the principles of what makes the electoral college just, you would want it for the state as well.

 

[ttwtt78640]

WAIT A DING DONG MINUTE!!!! I thought this whole thing behind the EC is scenarios that just might happen or could happen or may happen like California deciding for the entire nation who would be President or the candidates never going to Wyoming or the Dakota's or the little states (just like they don't now) or that the tyranny of the minority (whatever the hell that is ) will take place if we go to a popular vote?

You do realize that under the EC a single state can mater more than more than a dozen little states and the thing you fear is there right now with the EC?

Right now today California has more EC votes than the 13 smallest altogether! Your fear is already firmly in place in the EC.

Actually 14 (AK, DE, MT, ND, VT, WY, HI, ID, ME, NH, RI, WV, NM and IA*) but CA is still limited to 55 EC votes no matter how large (or small) its popular vote total is.

* = IA could be replaced by any other 6 EC vote state like KS, MI, NV or UT.