The "Gateway Drug" LIE

[Binary_Digit]

Marijuana as a drug is not a gateway drug. Where a co-morbid diagnosis accompanies drug use, it often escalates to other mother powerful drug use.

You cant look at the casual use of marijuana in the same light as you would view psychological disorder and addiction.

Thank you for the term "co-morbid." I forgot about that one.

 

[Thoreau72]

Lies, misinformation and fear-mongering are the very foundation of the drug prohibition.

There are a few examples of brave journalists pointing this out, but the corporate ownership of mainstream media supports the status quo. Don't expect that to change.

If it weren't for the drug prohibition over all these years, there would be no opportunity for the many rogue agents within the CIA to enrichen themselves by way of the black market created by the prohibition. Yes, there is a method to their madness.

All the enforcement bureaucracies, from the DEA and BOP on down to local agencies, have large parts of their budgets sustained by the drug laws, so that won't change either. For the most part they are having a field day with obscene asset forfeiture.

Lies, misinformation and fear-mongering sustain the drug war, and the US is chock full of all the above.

 

[Pozessed]

Whatever reason people would have to go to a black market dealer to purchase pot is the gateway to hard drugs. People who desire to purchase a pack of cigarettes don't get offered heroin by their clerk. OTOH a person who desires to purchase marijuana does sometimes get offered things harder than marijuana simply because of the social circles they must keep.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Whatever reason people would have to go to a black market dealer to purchase pot is the gateway to hard drugs. People who desire to purchase a pack of cigarettes don't get offered heroin by their clerk. OTOH a person who desires to purchase marijuana does sometimes get offered things harder than marijuana simply because of the social circles they must keep.

There is probably truth in that. In the process of learning how to obtain drugs like marijuana and magic mushrooms I also learned how to obtain much harder drugs. I don't use harder drugs but I could easily get them if I wanted. But if that is what makes something a "gateway" drug then legalization would solve that. After all, if the only drug dealer you have ever been to is a marijuana dispensary in Colorado you are no more likely to encounter heroine than someone who hasn't used marijuana.

 

[Mr Person]

Mmm.

Perhaps not in and of itself.

BUT... but.

People willing to do one illegal drug may well be tempted to try another. If they're a weed smoker and hang out with weed smokers, odds are good at least one of their friends does more than just weed and may suggest other drugs to them.

I'd say it's not so much that mj is a gateway in an of itself, but that it tends to expose users to others who do harder drugs, and to the contacts needed to acquire same... and that the inclination to use one illegal drug makes it more likely you might give in to the temptation to try something else when offered or suggested.

Not an inherent property of mj itself, in other words, but a risk associated with the subculture that uses it.

From personal experience: some people smoke weed all their life and never do anything harder.... but a good many do try other stuff.

If your view is correct - that it has something to do with the act of trying a drug that is illegal than simply the individual being curious and willing to take calculated risk - then wouldn't making marijuana legal nullify the effect you suggest?

Because you don't seem to be saying that trying a legal drug "makes it more likely you might give in to the temptation to try something else when offered or suggested." You say it's "the inclination to use one illegal drug" that does it.

 

[Dittohead not!]

The real gateway drugs are Vicodin and Oxycodone. Those are the ones that lead to heroin and in turn to more deaths by overdose than deaths on the highway.

This despite the number of drunks and fools behind the wheel on US highways.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Mmm.


Perhaps not in and of itself.


BUT... but.


People willing to do one illegal drug may well be tempted to try another. If they're a weed smoker and hang out with weed smokers, odds are good at least one of their friends does more than just weed and may suggest other drugs to them.


I'd say it's not so much that mj is a gateway in an of itself, but that it tends to expose users to others who do harder drugs, and to the contacts needed to acquire same... and that the inclination to use one illegal drug makes it more likely you might give in to the temptation to try something else when offered or suggested.


Not an inherent property of mj itself, in other words, but a risk associated with the subculture that uses it.


From personal experience: some people smoke weed all their life and never do anything harder.... but a good many do try other stuff.

That matches my experience. My take on it is the personality type that goes down the "ever stronger drug" path would do so whether mj was im the mix or not. Cigarettes->booze->X->Y->Z...

IOW, weed is not the problem, and classifying it like meth is simply ignorant. It has medicinal value. Look up the research the Israelis have been doing, as their laws actually allow research.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

The real gateway drugs are Vicodin and Oxycodone. Those are the ones that lead to heroin and in turn to more deaths by overdose than deaths on the highway.

Here's how corporate greed + ignorant & unscrupulous doctors caused the opioid epidemic:

How the American opiate epidemic was started by one pharmaceutical company

 

[Mr Person]

That matches my experience. My take on it is the personality type that goes down the "ever stronger drug" path would do so whether mj was im the mix or not. Cigarettes->booze->X->Y->Z...

IOW, weed is not the problem, and classifying it like meth is simply ignorant. It has medicinal value. Look up the research the Israelis have been doing, as their laws actually allow research.

Not really though. You could just as say someone who drinks beer at 18 (illegal) becomes more likely to try cocaine (also illegal).



It's really just down to the person and their circumstances.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Not really though. You could just as say someone who drinks beer at 18 (illegal) becomes more likely to try cocaine (also illegal).



It's really just down to the person and their circumstances.

I think what I was saying matches what you wrote - at least what I intended to say.

 

[Mr Person]

I think what I was saying matches what you wrote - at least what I intended to say.

Oops.

I need to go stick my head in a bucket of water. That's the second obvious thing I missed in the last twenty minutes.... (the other was forgetting that Berkeley is actually UC Berkeley, aka a state college. Oy.)

 

[Dittohead not!]

Not really though. You could just as say someone who drinks beer at 18 (illegal) becomes more likely to try cocaine (also illegal).



It's really just down to the person and their circumstances.

You could if the same people selling beer to 18 year olds were also selling heroin and cocaine.

 

[Mason66]

Why do people smoke pot?

 

[Binary_Digit]

Why do people smoke pot?

Same reason people eat cake?

 

[Mason66]

Same reason people eat cake?

Can you be more specific?

I don't know anybody that eats cake to get high.

 

[Zyphlin]

People willing to do one illegal drug may well be tempted to try another. If they're a weed smoker and hang out with weed smokers, odds are good at least one of their friends does more than just weed and may suggest other drugs to them.

However, would it not be accurate to say that said "subculture"...at least to the degree you're describing it...exists BECAUSE it's illegal.

IE to buy it you need to know someone who deals illegal substances. If they deal illegal substances, they likely deal other substances besides marijuana. If they deal other substances (and if those are more profitable) then there may be an attempt to sell you on trying something new. If you're already doing one thing illegal, the deterrent in doing another equally illegal thing becomes much smaller. If you're engaging in an illegal activity that is typically social, you're likely doing it with other people open to engaging in illegal activity. If you're around people open to engaging in illegal activity, you have a higher chance of running into OTHER forms of similar illegal activity and persuaded to join in. etc.

All of this is kind of book ended off the fact that Marijuana is legal. It's the same reason someone may argue that UNDERAGE smoking or UNDERAGE drinking may be a gateway to other things, but you generally wouldn't say it about people of a legal age that smoke or drink.

If anything, I think the "gateway" argument is actually a strong one for LEGALIZING, not keeping it illegal. The "gateway" isn't like it magically makes your brain go "NOW GIVE ME CRACK!". The "gateway" is that it reduces the legal deterrent to go onto other drugs, while putting you deeper into contact with an environment and culture that facilitates going further.

If you could go into the local ABC store and buy a 10 pack of joints, and are able to smoke it socially amongst friends who are generally upstanding with the law, then it significantly reduces the amount of contact and thus opportunity that's provided through the old methods of acquisition and group use.



I'd say it's not so much that mj is a gateway in an of itself, but that it tends to expose users to others who do harder drugs, and to the contacts needed to acquire same... and that the inclination to use one illegal drug makes it more likely you might give in to the temptation to try something else when offered or suggested.


Not an inherent property of mj itself, in other words, but a risk associated with the subculture that uses it.


From personal experience: some people smoke weed all their life and never do anything harder.... but a good many do try other stuff.[/QUOTE]

 

[Zyphlin]

I don't partake and frankly think it is better not to, but I also support full legalization for political, social and economic reasons.

Basically me.

Profession wise, I knew it would hamper me, so I just stayed away from it and continue to (doesn't help that I also just find the smell displeasing at this point). If it was fully legal, would I consider giving it a try occasionally? Sure, just like I'll occasionally drink to the point of getting mildly drunk. The legality of it is the only thing really keeping me from it right now. Similarly, if alcohol was made illegal tomorrow, I wouldn't be touching that either.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Can you be more specific?

I don't know anybody that eats cake to get high.

Pleasure.

I assume you mean recreational MJ, since the answer to medical MJ use would be obvious.

Food, sex, music, they all stimulate the same pleasure regions of the brain. They cause the brain to release endorphins such as dopamine, which makes the person feel pleasure.

 

[Mason66]

Pleasure.

I assume you mean recreational MJ, since the answer to medical MJ use would be obvious.

Food, sex, music, they all stimulate the same pleasure regions of the brain. They cause the brain to release endorphins such as dopamine, which makes the person feel pleasure.

Exactly, and when the body gets used to this level of stimulation and the person doesn't get the same effect, what is the recreational pot user to do?

 

[Binary_Digit]

Exactly, and when the body gets used to this level of stimulation and the person doesn't get the same effect, what is the recreational pot user to do?

Smoke more pot, of course.

I think you're suggesting that at some point, pot won't do it for them anymore and they have to turn to crack etc. for their fix, is that right? Do you have anything credible to support that? Although the burden of proof should be yours, I even looked around for you and couldn't find anything. There is evidence of a tolerance buildup with heavy use, but still nothing that suggests it compels even heavy users toward other drugs:

Researchers have also demonstrated that heavy marijuana use can lead to increased tolerance and withdrawal symptoms when trying to stop. In addition, heavy use can contribute to respiratory and cardiovascular problems as well as impairments in short-term memory. Marijuana may also trigger certain disorders, such as schizophrenia, in vulnerable persons [see “A Mind in Danger,” by Victoria Costello], although researchers continue to debate the evidence on this issue.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-truth-about-pot/

There is a concept of "cross-tolerance" where a tolerance to one drug could lead to an innate tolerance to other drugs that the person has never used, so if they do use those other drugs they'll probably use more:

In cannabinoid-administered rats, DA neurons were significantly less responsive to the stimulating action of WIN (cannabinoid agonist WIN55212.2), regardless of the age of pretreatment; however, in the adolescent group, but not in the adult, long-lasting cross-tolerance developed to morphine, cocaine, and amphetamine.

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(04)00530-X/fulltext?cc=y=

The only human study I could find on this only considered cross-tolerance between marijuana to alcohol, and it actually found no evidence of it:

In conclusion, the present study generally confirms that heavy cannabis users develop tolerance to the impairing effects of THC on neurocognitive task performance. Yet, heavy cannabis users did not develop cross-tolerance to the impairing effects of alcohol

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3045517/

The apparent lack of evidence for this phenomenon you're suggesting is not surprising to me, because:

the majority of people who use marijuana do not go on to use other, "harder" substances.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-gateway-drug

Anyway, if you can find something that supports this escalation from one drug to another due to the effects of tolerance, please share it. Thanks!

 

[Thoreau72]

Here's how corporate greed + ignorant & unscrupulous doctors caused the opioid epidemic:

How the American opiate epidemic was started by one pharmaceutical company

A good article by The Week. Yes, OxyContin did set the standard and begin the process for Hillbilly Heroin.

Unless I missed it, the only important factor that contributed to what we have today was the change under the Clinton Administration of advertising of Rx medicines. Before Clinton, prescription drugs could be advertised only in professional journals such as AMA and others. That is, before Clinton changed it, Rx medicines COULD NOT be advertised direct to consumer, direct to patient.

It was changed, and now we are inundated with ads for Rx medication, and that certainly plays on our hypochondria. I suspect Purdue Pharma lobbied hard for the advertising change.

In my view, OxyContin and a few other of the opioids should be withdrawn from the market. Production should cease, just as was done with Quaalude back in the day.

 

[Binary_Digit]

A good article by The Week. Yes, OxyContin did set the standard and begin the process for Hillbilly Heroin.

Unless I missed it, the only important factor that contributed to what we have today was the change under the Clinton Administration of advertising of Rx medicines. Before Clinton, prescription drugs could be advertised only in professional journals such as AMA and others. That is, before Clinton changed it, Rx medicines COULD NOT be advertised direct to consumer, direct to patient.

It was changed, and now we are inundated with ads for Rx medication, and that certainly plays on our hypochondria. I suspect Purdue Pharma lobbied hard for the advertising change.

In my view, OxyContin and a few other of the opioids should be withdrawn from the market. Production should cease, just as was done with Quaalude back in the day.

I hate those commercials so goddamn much. "Ask your doctor about crapterol" - as if your doctor is too incompetent to know which medications he should prescribe and needs to be asked.

And they always list off a dozen grim side effects, while playing a relaxing symphonic tune and showing unnaturally happy people living unusually active lives in extra slow motion.

The most depressing part is, they actually work on some people.

 

[nota bene]

I hate those commercials so goddamn much. "Ask your doctor about crapterol" - as if your doctor is too incompetent to know which medications he should prescribe and needs to be asked.

And they always list off a dozen grim side effects, while playing a relaxing symphonic tune and showing unnaturally happy people living unusually active lives in extra slow motion.

"Don't take Crapterol if you're allergic to it." No, really? What a great suggestion!

What I find interesting is the caution that some people with previous "problems" maybe be more likely to "misuse" Crapterol.
Not "abuse"..."misuse." :lol:

 

[Thoreau72]

I hate those commercials so goddamn much. "Ask your doctor about crapterol" - as if your doctor is too incompetent to know which medications he should prescribe and needs to be asked.

And they always list off a dozen grim side effects, while playing a relaxing symphonic tune and showing unnaturally happy people living unusually active lives in extra slow motion.

The most depressing part is, they actually work on some people.

Yes, they do work on some people, but don't forget the unintended side effects. They may include, but are not limited to, spastic dancing, incoherent thoughts, enlarged testicles and, of course, death. OMG.

And just as Bill was signing off on the new advertising relaxed rules, he was also signing off on the repeal of Glass Steagall and also making things very difficult for the USPS so that Fed Ex and UPS could take over.

Ah Bill, such a man of the people. :mrgreen:

 

[Dittohead not!]

"Don't take Crapterol if you're allergic to it." No, really? What a great suggestion!

What I find interesting is the caution that some people with previous "problems" maybe be more likely to "misuse" Crapterol.
Not "abuse"..."misuse." :lol:

The same people who are dumb enough to go ask their doctor about Crapterol have to be told not to take something they're allergic to. They're no doubt the same ones who look for "gluten free" vitamins, even when they're actually not allergic to gluten anyway.

There must be enough of them for a multi million dollar direct advertising campaign to actually increase profits.