The French go OTT on the Champs Elysees

[JoanDavis]

Two questions about the Gilets Jaunes Protests come to mind but cannot as yet be answered.

The first question is, "Is this the end of the Fifth Republic and will a Sixth Republic emerge from the ashes of the Fifth?" I ask this because despite President Macron back-peddling on the petrol tax hikes, the movement seems to be growing in popularity, numbers and intensity. I have recently read/heard a couple of reports that placed public support for these protests very, very high at between 75 - 80% of the French population. If that is true then I suspect that Mr. Macron will be badly hurt politically by this movement and he may lose his government and even his office over these protests if he is not careful.

The second question is, "Is the Gilets Jaunes protest movement going to remain just a French phenomenon or will it spread strongly to other European states and become a pan-European Union revolt? Will these protests be a turning point in European history or are these protests just a flash in the pan, by historical measuring? Will 2018-19 become the new 1848 as Europe rises up against its leaders, it's elites and the status quo?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

The riots have already spread to Belgium and Netherlands. I am sure some other countries that have still suffering the dubya recession will follow suit.

I think the 99% in some countries have had enough. Sick and tired of seeing the rich get richer and the poor and middle class get screwed by the rich.

 

[Chagos]

Two questions about the Gilets Jaunes Protests come to mind but cannot as yet be answered.

The first question is, "Is this the end of the Fifth Republic and will a Sixth Republic emerge from the ashes of the Fifth?"..........................~

I'd surmise that it's not impossible, certainly not impossible to contemplate. One need see that this 5th Republic is over 40 years old and getting to be somewhat ossified. In the sense of the model by which all power comes from the highest office and the citizens' role in it is more and more distanced.

The second question is, "Is the Gilets Jaunes protest movement going to remain just a French phenomenon or will it spread strongly to other European states ..................~

What we see may not be uniquely French but it is very French. There's a certain similarity (but only that) to the US situation of "fly-over states", but France's main feature is that of being an utterly centralized state with all focus going to and coming from Paris. From where (Parisian) attention goes to other big cities like Lyon and Marseille and is duly returned, but with large parts of the population living "in the sticks" finding little attention. Those "sticks" can be a mere 20 kms from the capital yet can also be far more difficult to get to by public transport than much further away Lyon.

More federal states (like for instance Germany) are organized in a manner in which "the locals" play a far greater role of participation.

The hike of fuel prices via taxation is the symptom here, not the cause. Unless you work and also live in Paris (the latter something of a challenge due to high costs of living, high rents etc.) you're basically sunk without a car. Because public transport (far better established in a federation like Germany) is so badly developed that it won't offer the incentive of leaving the car at home and thus reduce emissions (the envisaged goal of the fuel tax hikes). That is and was certainly the immediate trigger here but it goes beyond this issue. In that the transport issue only reflects many aspects of equal mismanagement/disorganisation.

Rather than being a rural countryside vs. big city battle, it's globalist elite (ensconced in the latter) vs those that are continuously and increasingly disconnected from the former. And the "disconnected" live in fair sizes cities as much as in rural villages.

It's the basic ailment (or certainly the potential of such) for any centralized state, the ruling class gets to see the people in the immediate vicinity, however huge that may be. And is deluded into believing that it sees the people altogether.

Anyone familiar with France will tell you that if you want to get an idea of it, Paris and Lyon (and Bordeaux and Marseille) are not the places to go to. Pretty much like London has nothing to do with the UK or Rome with Italy.

And in the case of France one must also remember the take of de Gaulle that a country that has 246 different sorts of cheese is practically ungovernable.:lol:

 

[Northern Light]

You know what? People love to make fun of France but their government actually listened to the People. Popular protest actually worked there. How often can we say the same here in America? Their fuel tax was scrapped for an entire year and the government has to go back to the drawing board.

Fuel companies have been taking the piss for years now. There aren't real shortages, it's just greed talking.

One thing I admire about the French people is their penchant for popular activism. They don't do anything piecemeal. When there are grievances, a ****load of people show up. I wish our country still had that kind of fire.

The French government knows that if they keep hammering the middle and lower class with all the financial burdens while sparing the rich, they will be on the chopping block, King Louis style.

Governments should be afraid of their people, not the other way around.

 

[Rogue Valley]

France Investigates Possible Russian Influence on Yellow Vest Riots | The Moscow Times

12/10/18
France opened a probe into possible Russian interference behind the country’s Yellow Vest protests, after reports that social-media accounts linked to Moscow have increasingly targeted the movement. According to the Alliance for Securing Democracy, about 600 Twitter accounts known to promote Kremlin views have begun focusing on France, boosting their use of the hashtag #giletsjaunes, the French name for the Yellow Vest movement. French security services are looking at the situation, Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said Sunday in a radio interview with RTL. Russia has been criticized for using social media to influence elections in the U.S. and elsewhere. Attempts to use fake news reports and cyberattacks to undercut the 2017 campaign of French President Emmanuel Macron failed, but Russian-linked sites have pushed questionable reports of a mutiny among police, and of officers’ support for the protests. “An investigation is now underway,” Le Drian said. “I will not make comments before the investigation has brought conclusions.”

Much of the tweeted material comes from Russian state media outlets including the Sputnik news website, the RT television network, and Ruptly, a German-based video news agency that belongs to RT. These outlets are covering the French crisis closely. Sputnik and RT have reported in recent days that most French police no longer support Macron and are siding with the protesters. Their sources: representatives of two small police unions that together won less than 4 percent of votes in nationwide union elections this month. Sputnik and RT also have shown a video – widely shared on French social media — of police in the southwestern town of Pau removing their helmets in what was described as a sign of solidarity with protesters. Local police and journalists on the scene said the description was untrue. They said some officers had briefly removed their helmets to talk with protesters before putting them back on.

If there is social unrest anywhere in the West, it is pretty much a given that the Russian state and its propaganda organs (RT/Sputnik/Ruptly/GRU) are involved.

I found the pic below on Russian social media (VK). Yellow-vest agitators in France are displaying the flag of the Russia-occupied "DNR Republic" in eastern Ukraine.

 

[Rogue Valley]

As in eastern Ukraine and Salisbury, beware of Russian "tourists".

"- Are you from GRU?
- And you?"

 

[Surrealistik]

France Investigates Possible Russian Influence on Yellow Vest Riots | The Moscow Times



If there is social unrest anywhere in the West, it is pretty much a given that the Russian state and its propaganda organs (RT/Sputnik/Ruptly/GRU) are involved.

I found the pic below on Russian social media (VK). Yellow-vest agitators in France are displaying the flag of the Russia-occupied "DNR Republic" in eastern Ukraine.

Though Russia will certainly appear to stoke the fires of discontent and euroskepticism whenever they appear in Europe, these riots unambiguously have their roots in neoliberalism, and the slow boil of the working and middle class in favour of the rich.

It would be no less than an absolute mistake to construe and delegitimize them as being wholly or primarily due to some kind of foreign action or psyops.

 

[Westphalian]

Macron backs down again, but is it too little too late, and how much damage has it done to his credibility and grandiose plans? :

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46513189


They wanted more than just a politician's promises. They wanted measures, banknotes in their pockets, a tangible change in their impoverished daily lives.

President Macron got the message. In fact he had no choice. To have blethered about future challenges and the need for nation-building would have driven the yellow vests to distraction.

So here - at the core of the address - were four simple changes. A rise in the minimum wage; the removal of tax and social charges on overtime; encouragement to employers to give workers a tax-free bonus; and an end to a surcharge on most pensions.

Plus a note of contrition, and a promise of a new "national contract" built on electoral change and wider consultation with the provinces.

Chuck in the concessions already given - an end to the fuel tax rise and "mobility" grants for people who drive to work - and the yellow vests suddenly appear as one of the most successful protest movements of modern times.

Four weeks after their first Facebook videos were posted, they have forced a total reorientation of French social and economic policy. And without even making out a formal list of demands.

 

[Surrealistik]

Macron backs down again, but is it too little too late, and how much damage has it done to his credibility and grandiose plans? :

Macron's problem is precisely that he didn't have grandiose plans; that he was wholly committed to the slow poison of the status quo.

Politically though, the damage of this ought to be staggering, and rightly so. This, along with Brexit, Trump, the rise of the alt-right and Bolsonaro should collectively serve as a warning to the establishment the world over that their way of thinking is becoming quickly and dangerously outmoded, and that the patience of the people for their unacceptable Reagan/Thatcherite slow boil championing of the wealthy is at its end.

 

[Westphalian]

Macron's problem is precisely that he didn't have grandiose plans; that he was wholly committed to the slow poison of the status quo.

Politically though, the damage of this ought to be staggering, and rightly so. This, along with Brexit, Trump, the rise of the alt-right and Bolsonaro should collectively serve as a warning to the establishment the world over that their way of thinking is becoming quickly and dangerously outmoded, and that the patience of the people for their unacceptable Reagan/Thatcherite slow boil championing of the wealthy is at its end.

I'd agree with that.

The neo-liberal economic philosophy has also become turbo charged by globalism and un-restricted immigration (at least in Europe) over the last 20 years. This has tipped many people over the edge. It manifests in different ways in different states, but as you say, the signs are un-mistakeable.

Then of course we have those elitists who seek to explain away all dissent as due to Russian influence (see this thread). That's the height of delusion and absurdity, particularly when in other threads those same people insist that Russia is a weak and pathetic house of cards about to fall down :doh.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Though Russia will certainly appear to stoke the fires of discontent and euroskepticism whenever they appear in Europe, these riots unambiguously have their roots in neoliberalism, and the slow boil of the working and middle class in favour of the rich.

It would be no less than an absolute mistake to construe and delegitimize them as being wholly or primarily due to some kind of foreign action or psyops.

I disagree. The destructive riots are manifested by the far right (including Le Pen) and aided by Putin agents.

 

[Jack Hays]

I disagree. The destructive riots are manifested by the far right (including Le Pen) and aided by Putin agents.

[h=2]France: the streets belong to the Butchers and Bakers while the UN argues over a meanginless word[/h]
The timing is a disaster for the UN annual junket. The Yellow Vest protest has also spread to the UK now. Politicians must be tip toeing in Katowice, Poland. The Western leaders can hardly offer prime symbolic gifts for carbon action for fear of triggering similar protests at home.
As the protests grew week after week, the “crumbs” thrown to appease the crowd only made them more resolute. The people are realizing how much power they have. The normal veneer of civility holds that the police and laws keep the peace, but the truth is that if the people feel exploited and act together, any free nation can grind to halt in days.
In hours, French President Macron is set to speak to try to defuse the anger.
Craig Rucker from CFACT took time off from the UN climate folly and walked the streets with the Gilets Jaunes. This is so interesting because he is not the usual journalist observer, and he is there, not opining from afar. He says the people have taken over the streets, but the movement is being smeared as violent, though the rioting is due to radical leftists not the core protesters of the movement. One thing is for sure, everyone with any agenda will be looking for a way to own the power in this protest. . . .

 

[Rogue Valley]

[h=2]France: the streets belong to the Butchers and Bakers while the UN argues over a meanginless word[/h]
The timing is a disaster for the UN annual junket. The Yellow Vest protest has also spread to the UK now. Politicians must be tip toeing in Katowice, Poland. The Western leaders can hardly offer prime symbolic gifts for carbon action for fear of triggering similar protests at home.
As the protests grew week after week, the “crumbs” thrown to appease the crowd only made them more resolute. The people are realizing how much power they have. The normal veneer of civility holds that the police and laws keep the peace, but the truth is that if the people feel exploited and act together, any free nation can grind to halt in days.
In hours, French President Macron is set to speak to try to defuse the anger.
Craig Rucker from CFACT took time off from the UN climate folly and walked the streets with the Gilets Jaunes. This is so interesting because he is not the usual journalist observer, and he is there, not opining from afar. He says the people have taken over the streets, but the movement is being smeared as violent, though the rioting is due to radical leftists not the core protesters of the movement. One thing is for sure, everyone with any agenda will be looking for a way to own the power in this protest. . . .

This is no longer about carbon and climate. It has been hijacked by the alt-right and the Kremlin.

 

[Lafayette]

fall from grace must alarm the EU, for whom Macron was a supposed poster boy of the center.

His pursuit of the agenda of the elite is bringing him into conflict with his own people. His arrogance will not permit him to back down. France is in trouble.

Fall from grace? Indulging in some wishful thinking are we?

You don't live in France and haven't the slightest notion of France's basic problems. Which is first and foremost, its people.

They want change but don't want to suffer from it.

So Macron decided to go slowly but firmly. There are fundamental changes that are necessary in the French economy, the foremost of which is the fact that its major industry is Tourism. No country can function with an economic agent that is so variable and independent of any national regulation.

The French, even at the bottom, live very well. There is no hunger, obesity has been creeping up just like anywhere else in a developed economy. What triggered this bit of anti-Macronism is the fact that petrol prices were put up. But they reached a level that had been in place once before (in 2004).

Petrol prices are volatile, so are therefore prices at the pump. This time around they sparked an uprising - to which a bunch of stupid-kids "tried to have some fun". Almost a thousand of which are under 18 and will be starting life with a police-record for the damages they inflicted.

They really don't understand that that police record is a curse upon their career. And if they try that again this weekend, that will be another 1000 with damaged career-possibilities.

It's amazing how stoopid some of the young can get ...

 

[Jack Hays]

This is no longer about carbon and climate. It has been hijacked by the alt-right and the Kremlin.

That's a good way to try to discredit the protesters if you don't like them, but I don't think it's true. I agree other grievances are surfacing as time goes on. That's happened often in France. The meeting of the Etats-Generaux in 1789 was just to address royal finances, but things got out of hand and . . . .

 

[Buzz62]

This is no longer about carbon and climate. It has been hijacked by the alt-right and the Kremlin.

Correction: It's addressing more than just the carbon tax. LePen is needed now in France

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[Jack Hays]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[h=1]Green Taxes and Yellow Vests: Global Awakening amid Climate Fearmongering[/h][FONT=&quot]Guest opinion by Vijay Jayaraj The Yellow Vest protests in France, now in their third week, have grabbed global attention. Though the French government suspended its fuel tax increase, the unrest continues. France is not the only country to introduce taxes on fossil fuels and carbon emissions. Germany, Canada, and others have their own versions.…
Continue reading →
[/FONT]

 

[Surrealistik]

Fall from grace? Indulging in some wishful thinking are we?

You don't live in France and haven't the slightest notion of France's basic problems. Which is first and foremost, its people.

They want change but don't want to suffer from it.

So Macron decided to go slowly but firmly. There are fundamental changes that are necessary in the French economy, the foremost of which is the fact that its major industry is Tourism. No country can function with an economic agent that is so variable and independent of any national regulation.

The French, even at the bottom, live very well. There is no hunger, obesity has been creeping up just like anywhere else in a developed economy. What triggered this bit of anti-Macronism is the fact that petrol prices were put up. But they reached a level that had been in place once before (in 2004).

Petrol prices are volatile, so are therefore prices at the pump. This time around they sparked an uprising - to which a bunch of stupid-kids "tried to have some fun". Almost a thousand of which are under 18 and will be starting life with a police-record for the damages they inflicted.

They really don't understand that that police record is a curse upon their career. And if they try that again this weekend, that will be another 1000 with damaged career-possibilities.

It's amazing how stoopid some of the young can get ...

Macron did things like slash wealth taxes and added levies for poor pensioners as he simultaneously imposed substantial regressive ones in an environment where wages were stagnating and economic inequality was increasing; pretty indefensible stuff, even if you want to attempt to argue that his loosening of labour laws was necessary.

I disagree. The destructive riots are manifested by the far right (including Le Pen) and aided by Putin agents.

Really?

Would you actually assert that the riots were all or predominantly the product of Russia and the far right despite explicit evidence to the contrary? Like I said, I have no doubt Russia helped foment and build these riots, but it is nothing short of ludicrous to assert that they were the primary causation as opposed to Macron's own policies.


And of course, the idea pushed by the right that these riots were entirely and solely predicated on the fuel taxes (because it is politically inconvenient for them to acknowledge the simultaneous favouring of the wealthy which played at least as great a role) is every bit as ludicrous.

 

[Lafayette]

Macron did things like slash wealth taxes and added levies for poor pensioners as he simultaneously imposed substantial regressive ones in an environment where wages were stagnating and economic inequality was increasing; pretty indefensible stuff, even if you want to attempt to argue that his loosening of labour laws was necessary.

He did, somewhat and certainly not greatly.

If you look around Europe, France has the highest taxation on the rich. He was (supposedly) trying to make France more competitive in attracting the rich because - aside from buying expensive apartments in Paris - the also invest in the economy. For the moment, nothing indicates that that tactic (now a year old) was working. But, it is too early to tell because nothing is working in France.

France's unemployment rate has a way to go. It's come down historically, but only by 1%. (See here.)

Unemployment was coming down and has now stagnated around 9.2%. The French are an impatient people. It is amazing (to me) how they can be simultaneously smart and stupid. Maybe they thought he was going to change things overnight. Only God could have done that, and on that score the French are not the best church-goers.

Moreover, and I tire of telling this to the French friends because they don't like it - unemployment is not handled magically. It is a matter of expanding consumption such that jobs are created. Which is typical of any market-economy on earth.

Which is what Macron has just done by increasing the minimum wage but also doing away with some taxation on the poor.

But they cannot seem to understand that simple explanation. The French are a mercurial people - so it's back out on the streets again this weekend ...

 

[Surrealistik]

He did, somewhat and certainly not greatly.

If you look around Europe, France has the highest taxation on the rich. He was (supposedly) trying to make France more competitive in attracting the rich because - aside from buying expensive apartments in Paris - the also invest in the economy. For the moment, nothing indicates that that tactic (now a year old) was working. But, it is too early to tell because nothing is working in France.

France's unemployment rate has a way to go. It's come down historically, but only by 1%. (See here.)

Unemployment was coming down and has now stagnated around 9.2%. The French are an impatient people. It is amazing (to me) how they can be simultaneously smart and stupid. Maybe they thought he was going to change things overnight. Only God could have done that, and on that score the French are not the best church-goers.

Moreover, and I tire of telling this to the French friends because they don't like it - unemployment is not handled magically. It is a matter of expanding consumption such that jobs are created. Which is typical of any market-economy on earth.

Which is what Macron has just done by increasing the minimum wage but also doing away with some taxation on the poor.

But they cannot seem to understand that simple explanation - so it's back out on the streets again this weekend ...

I'd understand if there was an actual evidentiary as opposed to predominantly ideological basis for cutting the wealth taxes, but there really isn't; at least an argument can be presented in the case of labour law flexibility given France's notoriously stringent regulations here, but the track record for the former has been less than stellar. Moreover, the tax reduction for the rich was substantial:

https://www.ft.com/content/3d907582-b893-11e7-9bfb-4a9c83ffa852

"The French parliament on Tuesday adopted a package of measures for 2018 that included scrapping the wealth levy on everything except property assets — in effect cutting the tax by 70 per cent. A 30 per cent flat tax rate will also be introduced on capital gains, dividends and interests — a longstanding demand from investors and entrepreneurs.

The tax cuts, which fulfil promises made on the campaign trail, were seized on by Mr Macron’s political opponents as further evidence that he was the “president of the rich”.

Marine Le Pen, leader of the far-right National Front whom he defeated in a presidential runoff in May, said the tax cuts were designed to reward wealthy campaign donors. Thomas Piketty, the leftwing economist, said the measures were a “historical error” that would fuel economic inequality"

Further, cutting progressive taxation while you impose significant regressive taxes, and thus shift substantial tax burdens onto those who can afford them least is obviously and blatantly a bad idea, particularly given the climate of France.

I think the French people are exactly correct in their grievances with Macron who, is like all other neoliberals, demonstrably a frog boiler of the working and middle class, though I don't necessarily support their methods. The fundamental problem is he's running the same tired old playbook already used the developed world over which has only served to benefit those at the highest echelons of wealth and privilege while leaving everyone else behind. It's not a matter of patience so much as it is one of inevitable trajectory towards continued wage stagnation and increased inequality.

 

[Buzz62]

[FONT="][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/12/11/green-taxes-and-yellow-vests-global-awakening-amid-climate-fearmongering/"]

[/URL][/FONT]
[h=1]Green Taxes and Yellow Vests: Global Awakening amid Climate Fearmongering[/h][FONT="][FONT=inherit]Guest opinion by Vijay Jayaraj The Yellow Vest protests in France, now in their third week, have grabbed global attention. Though the French government suspended its fuel tax increase, the unrest continues. France is not the only country to introduce taxes on fossil fuels and carbon emissions. Germany, Canada, and others have their own versions.…[/FONT]
[FONT=inherit][URL="https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/12/11/green-taxes-and-yellow-vests-global-awakening-amid-climate-fearmongering/"]Continue reading →[/URL][/FONT]
[/FONT]

Not here in Ontario, where I live. Thanks to our new Premier.

 

[Jack Hays]

Climate Change Hysteria and the New French Rebellion
Joel Kotkin, New Geography

 

[Rogue Valley]

Climate Change Hysteria and the New French Rebellion
Joel Kotkin, New Geography

It began with climate, but it has morphed into something quite removed from that.

Russian links to 'yellow vests' protests to be probed

You may elect to ignore this to satisfy your dreadful climate narrative, but I won't ignore Kremlin meddling here.

 

[Jack Hays]

It began with climate, but it has morphed into something quite removed from that.

Russian links to 'yellow vests' protests to be probed

You may elect to ignore this to satisfy your dreadful climate narrative, but I won't ignore Kremlin meddling here.

I'm not ignoring the Kremlin's meddling, I just don't think it's central to the story. And the ironic parallel to the Joe McCarthy 1950's is off-putting.

 

[Lafayette]

I'd understand if there was an actual evidentiary as opposed to predominantly ideological basis for cutting the wealth taxes, but there really isn't; at least an argument can be presented in the case of labour law flexibility given France's notoriously stringent regulations here, but the track record for the former has been less than stellar. Moreover, the tax reduction for the rich was substantial:

The 2017 French corporate tax rate was 15% of the taxable income up to and including €38,120, 28% up to €75,000 and above which the rate is 33.3%. By 2020, the whole taxable income of all companies will be taxed at 28%. On 7 November 2017 the French National Assembly approved a new corporate tax.

The tax-rate cut in 2017 on Wealth was a colossal error. I think Macron today regrets what he did last year.

What he said last year:

“My predecessor taxed the wealthiest and those who succeeded like never before. What happened? They left,” Mr Macron said on television last week — ignoring the fact that he was for much of that time an economic adviser to Mr Hollande.

Given that he was Hollande's Minister of Finance in the previous administration, I wonder if he has that same opinion today.

Income Disparity in France is nonetheless at a level far, far better than, say, the US. As shown here.

 

[Jack Hays]

The 2017 French corporate tax rate was 15% of the taxable income up to and including €38,120, 28% up to €75,000 and above which the rate is 33.3%. By 2020, the whole taxable income of all companies will be taxed at 28%. On 7 November 2017 the French National Assembly approved a new corporate tax.

The tax-rate cut in 2017 on Wealth was a colossal error. I think Macron today regrets what he did last year.

What he said last year:


Given that he was Hollande's Minister of Finance in the previous administration, I wonder if he has that same opinion today.

Income Disparity in France is nonetheless at a level far, far better than, say, the US. As shown here.

Your link has nothing to do with income disparity.