The fiscal picture is worse than it looks—and it looks bad

[jonny5]

I love that sentiment. Rail against the Dems for 8 years for raising the debt $9 Trillion, but when your guy gets in office, "... what's another $2 Trillion at this point?".

lolol

My guy isnt in office. And I was obviously being sarcastic.

 

[Conservative]

lets see if I understand this correctly- you have zero economic background, never spent day 1 in an economics or business class, yet you profess to know more than the experts at the CBO. Spare us, your complete ignorance. Your opinions mean absolutely nothing

There you go again speculating on something you don't understand or someone you don't know. You do that a lot. What is it about liberalism that creates people like you who show nothing but arrogance and have no understanding of basic civics or economics. You tout CBO but have no understanding of their record nor do you want to learn about their record. When was the tax cut scored by CBO. Simple question, where is your answer?

 

[Critter7r]

My guy isnt in office. And I was obviously being sarcastic.

Sorry, I must've read it with the wrong inflection. pretend I was quoting that post in the generic "your guy" kind of way, and not that he is/was "your guy" specifically.

 

[Floridafan]

CBO's been projecting massive deficits for years.

Thats exactly what we have now

 

[Floridafan]

Read the report. It shows mandatory spending almost doubling in the next decade, from 2.5 trillion to 4.5 trillion. Meanwhile we only collect 1.1 trillion in payroll tax per year. Thats 35 trillion SPENT, and only 15 trillion collected in payroll tax.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53651

And the economic growth will more than pay for the tax cuts. 6 trillion more in GDP than without the cuts, which increases income tax revenue from 1.6 trillion to 3 trillion over the next decade.

In CBO’s baseline projections, which incorporate the assumption that current laws governing taxes and spending generally remain unchanged, the federal budget deficit grows substantially over the next few years. Later on, between 2023 and 2028, it stabilizes in relation to the size of the economy, though at a high level by historical standards.
As a result, federal debt is projected to be on a steadily rising trajectory throughout the coming decade. Debt held by the public, which has doubled in the past 10 years as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), approaches 100 percent of GDP by 2028 in CBO’s projections. That amount is far greater than the debt in any year since just after World War II. Moreover, if lawmakers changed current law to maintain certain current policies—preventing a significant increase in individual income taxes in 2026 and drops in funding for defense and nondefense discretionary programs in 2020, for example—the result would be even larger increases in debt.

 

[MTAtech]

Blind partisanship is on full display with everyone of your posts as data doesn't support your claims so you cherry pick and choose the time frame you want to use. Can you explain to me why you believe Obama created 14 million jobs in 8 years when the employment was 146 million in January 2007? Did he create jobs that were lost and never recovered with his booming economic stimulus? Are part time for economic reasons in those employment numbers that you want to tout? Realistically Obama created 6 million jobs in 8 years, 146 million to 152 and already Trump has increased 3 million or 152 to 155 million. Obama's part time for economic reasons is 700,000 more than Trumps as well. Maybe you ought to take a class at an accredited school so you establish some credibility

News Flash: Obama didn't become president until Jan 2009, so why did you cherry pick the starting dates Jan 2007? Obama is not responsible for what happened before he took office. In any case, the chart tells the story. I also dispute your numbers. Mine are from the Federal Reserve, Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Total Nonfarm Payrolls January 2007: 137,497,000
Total Nonfarm Payrolls January 2009: 134,055,00
Total Nonfarm Payrolls December 2016: 145,497,000

 

[Floridafan]

There you go again speculating on something you don't understand or someone you don't know. You do that a lot. What is it about liberalism that creates people like you who show nothing but arrogance and have no understanding of basic civics or economics. You tout CBO but have no understanding of their record nor do you want to learn about their record. When was the tax cut scored by CBO. Simple question, where is your answer?

Why dont you first fill us in on your educational and business experience which would make you more knowledgable than the CBO?

 

[MTAtech]

In CBO’s baseline projections, which incorporate the assumption that current laws governing taxes and spending generally remain unchanged, the federal budget deficit grows substantially over the next few years. Later on, between 2023 and 2028, it stabilizes in relation to the size of the economy, though at a high level by historical standards.
As a result, federal debt is projected to be on a steadily rising trajectory throughout the coming decade. Debt held by the public, which has doubled in the past 10 years as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP), approaches 100 percent of GDP by 2028 in CBO’s projections. That amount is far greater than the debt in any year since just after World War II. Moreover, if lawmakers changed current law to maintain certain current policies—preventing a significant increase in individual income taxes in 2026 and drops in funding for defense and nondefense discretionary programs in 2020, for example—the result would be even larger increases in debt.

It stabilizes only because the middle class portion of the tax-cuts expire (e.g. current law.) If Congress extends them, it doesn't stabilize.

 

[Conservative]

News Flash: You don't get to cherry pick the starting dates. Why did you pick Jan 2007? Obama didn't become president until Jan 2009. Is he charged with undoing all of Bush's mess? In any case, the chart tells the story. I also dispute your numbers. Mine are from the Federal Reserve, Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Total Nonfarm Payrolls January 2007: 137,497,000
Total Nonfarm Payrolls January 2009: 134,055,00
Total Nonfarm Payrolls December 2016: 145,497,000

Because January is when he took office, why did you pick 2011? Why did you ignore the 146 million employed in January 2008 and the Democratic control of Congress from January 2007 to January 2011? It does seem that the Obama democratic controlled Congress and the passing of his stimulus almost Day 1 is totally ignored by you and the rest of the radical left. Is it your contention that the return of jobs are new jobs created? Interesting how you also ignored that Bush took Employment up from 137 million to 146 million in 7 years before the Democrats took Congress but then again Democrats are never responsible for poor results, are they? Looks to me like Obama took Employment from 146 million to 152 million or up 6 million. Trump has increased employment by 3 million in a year so again Obama makes Carter look good

 

[Conservative]

Why dont you first fill us in on your educational and business experience which would make you more knowledgable than the CBO?

Will be happy to when you tell me when CBO scored the Trump tax cuts? What was the date?

 

[MTAtech]

Because January is when he took office, why did you pick 2011? Why did you ignore the 146 million employed in January 2008 and the Democratic control of Congress from January 2007 to January 2011? It does seem that the Obama democratic controlled Congress and the passing of his stimulus almost Day 1 is totally ignored by you and the rest of the radical left. Is it your contention that the return of jobs are new jobs created? Interesting how you also ignored that Bush took Employment up from 137 million to 146 million in 7 years before the Democrats took Congress but then again Democrats are never responsible for poor results, are they? Looks to me like Obama took Employment from 146 million to 152 million or up 6 million. Trump has increased employment by 3 million in a year so again Obama makes Carter look good

Sorry, your post is astoundingly idiotic. Presidents are judged from the time they are inaugurated not when their party takes office. Obama took office January 20, 2009. That's when the clock starts -- not 2007 or 2008.

 

[Conservative]

Sorry, your post is astoundingly idiotic. Presidents are judged from the time they are inaugurated not when their party takes office. Obama took office January 20, 2009. That's when the clock starts -- not 2007 or 2008.

Sorry but you don't create jobs when you return to pre recession levels but Obama did take office with 142 million employed and had his stimulus signed almost day one that Took Employment down to 139 million or 3 million lost taxpayers which impacted revenue and helped with the trillion dollar deficits. GOP Took Congress so when did the deficits and real job creation begin? Your loyalty to liberalism makes embarrasses you which apparently you still don't get

 

[Floridafan]

It stabilizes only because the middle class portion of the tax-cuts expire (e.g. current law.) If Congress extends them, it doesn't stabilize.

Correct, if Congress extends the individual tax cuts, our deficits will be much higher.

 

[Floridafan]

Will be happy to when you tell me when CBO scored the Trump tax cuts? What was the date?

Answer my question, dont play games!

 

[Conservative]

Answer my question, dont play games!

You claimed that the CBO considered the 3 million new taxpayers, the doubling of the Obama GDP rate, and the 1 million more full time employment taxpayers from the part time group and that is a lie, the scoring was November 2017 long before any of those numbers were generated so it is you that is totally ignorant of data and facts or playing games looking for attention

 

[Floridafan]

You claimed that the CBO considered the 3 million new taxpayers, the doubling of the Obama GDP rate, and the 1 million more full time employment taxpayers from the part time group and that is a lie, the scoring was November 2017 long before any of those numbers were generated so it is you that is totally ignorant of data and facts or playing games looking for attention

Well, the current CBO estimate just came out. The same estimate I posted. Now tell us your educational and work experience.

 

[Conservative]

Well, the current CBO estimate just came out. The same estimate I posted. Now tell us your educational and work experience.

I see no evidence of that as the original scoring was November 27th 2017 and I'm no longer playing your games.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Floridafan]

I see no evidence of that as the original scoring was November 27th 2017 and I'm no longer playing your games.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

We have nothing further to discuss until you furnish the employment and educational data I asked for.

 

[Vern]

Nice try, but you cant clear democrats on this. If you guys were so concerned about the negative budget effects of the tax cuts, dems would have voted to cut spending not increase it.

wow fletch, the contortions and rationalizations conservatives (and conservative like posters) have to go through to never hold their own accountable is just amazing. Republicans are flaming lying hypocrites on deficits. Democrats aren't. When you can address that in an honest and intelligent fashion then come back and talk to us. If we wanted to hear what Conservative would say, we can just ask him.

 

[ludin]

That doesn't mean there's never times when we shouldn't cut revenue. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Revenue is derived from economic activity.
more economic activity = more revenue.

tax cuts are long term revenue generating items.
they are not short term.

Similar to how a business will put something on sale.
they cut the price of items to generate more people buying items.

while they might not charge as much money as they normally would.
they do end up making more money than if they didn't have the sale.

 

[Bullseye]

wow fletch, the contortions and rationalizations conservatives (and conservative like posters) have to go through to never hold their own accountable is just amazing. Republicans are flaming lying hypocrites on deficits. Democrats aren't. When you can address that in an honest and intelligent fashion then come back and talk to us. If we wanted to hear what Conservative would say, we can just ask him.

Vern, I gotta say, before you accuse others of responding dishonestly and unintelligently you ought to try doing it yourself. You consistently peddle half-brain stereotypes of conservatives and conservative like posters. You've been given honest and thoughtful responses by several conservative and conservative like posters throughout this discussion.

 

[MTAtech]

Revenue is derived from economic activity.
more economic activity = more revenue.

tax cuts are long term revenue generating items.
they are not short term.

Similar to how a business will put something on sale.
they cut the price of items to generate more people buying items.

while they might not charge as much money as they normally would.
they do end up making more money than if they didn't have the sale.

We have gone through a mult-decade experiment in which we tested the theory that lowering taxes that already are below the optimal taxation rate increases revenue. The results of this experiment is clear, according to a 2012 report from the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, top marginal tax rates and economic growth have not appeared correlated over the past 60 years.

No matter, this zombie lie can be killed over and over and it will still get up and be repeated by conservative partisans who want tax-cuts. There is no reason to think that the Trump tax-cut will result in any measurable increase in economic growth and certainly not enough to offset the cut in revenue the cuts will create.

One can also see Reagan and Revenue.

 

[Vern]

Vern, I gotta say, before you accuse others of responding dishonestly and unintelligently you ought to try doing it yourself. You consistently peddle half-brain stereotypes of conservatives and conservative like posters. You've been given honest and thoughtful responses by several conservative and conservative like posters throughout this discussion.

Bullseye, stop posting what you was wish was true and be specific. All you've done is post "wah wah vern". address what I posted not what you imagined I posted. Fletch is literally blaming democrats for the increased deficits. He's posted "but but but 33 dems voted for the spending bill" and "wah wah, they should have voted against the spending because republicans cut taxes". He, just like you, is avoiding the facts to maintain a narrative. Now again, be specific. Don't whine. Don't deflect. Don't cut and run. Be specific.

 

[upsideguy]

But now they get to do it all at once, instead of amortizing it over 20 years or whatever it was.

No... its NO different. Only the limit. Please read the cites I have given you.

 

[jaeger19]

and that's the problem with conservatives (and conservative like posters), even with republicans in complete control, they are responsible for nothing. Accountability is just another word they mindlessly parrot with no idea what it means. You just cant foam at the mouth about deficits for 8 years, elect republicans to fix the "problem" and then stand around whining "but but but 33 democrat senators voted for the spending bill" without even the slightest concept of how foolish that looks. But yet they do.

Sorry to burst your bubble Vern.. but no they don't.

I am conservative and I have a long history of holding republicans responsible for the deficit.. especially cutting taxes and then being surprised that the deficit explodes. So do many actually conservatives in the republican party.

Your hate makes you label anyone that disagrees with you a "conservative".. yada yada.. you are no different than the republican posters that dismiss anyone that disagrees with them as a "raving liberal".