The falsification of history: 'Ukraine' is not a country

[Chagos]

I suggest you read some history of the region, you ignorance is very evident. You should be ashamed.

Ukraine was a sovereign state when the Huns of Mongolia came across the Steppes, Ukrain, Kiev actually, was where they were stopped with the aid of King Sobiesky of Poland, who invented modern cavalry as it is used today with tanks.

Over time, due to the stresses Asians occupying the country, Ukraine broke down to several sates, Poland absorbing the west, and the east becoming mini-states until the rise of the people we now call Russian.

Not to make meal of it, but the Huns and the Mongols were two separate issues.

The Mongols took Kiev, slaughtered most of the inhabitants and practically razed the whole city. With that out of the way they were free to advance into Poland and Hungary where they acted similarly. No Western force stopped them, what did was the death of their great Khan Ogodei in far away Karakorum and the necessity of electing a new one. Or so popular narrative would have it.

Jan III Sobiesci of Poland didn't appear on the scene until 4 centuries later and not to help Kiev but to help defeat the Ottoman Turks at Vienna.

 

[Litwin]

If Ukraine is not a state, then neither is the Russian Federation. Both new states were created at the dissolution of the USSR with the signing of the Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement) in 1991.

The Belavezha Accords signing ceremony at Viskuly Government House in the Belarusian Belovezhskaya Pushcha National Park, 8 December 1991.

Signatories from left to right:

Ukraine: First Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine Vitold Fokin and first Ukraine President Leonard Kravchuk

Belarus: First Head of State of independent Belarus Stanislav Shushkevich and first Prime Minister of Belarus Vyacheslav Kebich

Russian Federation: First President of the Russian Federation Boris Yeltsin and the first Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Gennady Burbulis


Another document signed regarding the newly independent former USSR states:

Alma-Ata Protocol 1991

LOL , we need post here one more picture

 

[Fishking]

The Falsification of History: ”Ukraine" is not a country | Katehon think tank. Geopolitics & Tradition

All countries comes from somewhere. Where a countries exists and dies, new countries arise. This has been the pattern of history.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Falsification of History: ”Ukraine" is not a country | Katehon think tank. Geopolitics & Tradition

:lamo

What a delusional load of crap.

 

[Evilroddy]

:roll::roll:


Russia doesn't want to, and won't, invade Ukraine ...... it's a failing state and another economic drain which the West won't save.


My personal view is that Ukraine will correct the excesses of its current regime madness in making Russia an enemy.

Westphalian:

Regarding the bolded statement. Russia has already invaded Ukraine and continues to participate in and support the territorial dismemberment of Ukraine. The events of 2014 until today make your statement demonstrably false. As to Ukraine being an enemy of Russia, that was because Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. Ukrainians kicked out a Ukrainian government during the Maiden Revolution that both the West and Russia were using as a proxy struggle for greater influence in Eastern Europe. Kicking out a pro-Russian governments not your own country is not a casus belli, is it? Ukraine did not make itself a Russian enemy. Russia invaded Ukraine.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Westphalian]

Westphalian:

Regarding the bolded statement. Russia has already invaded Ukraine and continues to participate in and support the territorial dismemberment of Ukraine. The events of 2014 until today make your statement demonstrably false. As to Ukraine being an enemy of Russia, that was because Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. Ukrainians kicked out a Ukrainian government during the Maiden Revolution that both the West and Russia were using as a proxy struggle for greater influence in Eastern Europe. Kicking out a pro-Russian governments not your own country is not a casus belli, is it? Ukraine did not make itself a Russian enemy. Russia invaded Ukraine.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Your interpretation is different to mine, so let's just pause to understand the Russian perspective.


A democratically elected pro Russian President was ousted in a violent coup, undoubtedly orchestrated by the CIA, in 2014. After Yanukovych signed an agreement, backed by EU governments, which would have seen a democratic transition to fresh elections, but this agreement was immediately shredded (without a whimper from its EU backers) as the violent CIA backed protestors continued their illegal seizure of power.

The new Kiev regime immediately began a campaign of hate towards Russian speakers, proposing to ban the language whilst accommodating ultra-nationalists in the regime.

Fearing the loss of access to its Crimean facilities, and mindful of the very distinct pro Russian identity of Crimea's population, authorities in Crimea and Moscow saw the opportunity to liberate Crimea from Ukraine (a matter which had long been on the agenda). The US did not see this coming. Its intelligence was dismally weak, and anyway Moscow signalled very strongly that this was existential to Russia. Neither Kiev nor Washington had any good options short of destroying the whole world. That matter is now closed barring the lip service.

In Donbas, pro Russian separatists saw a similar opportunity, and a civil war ensued. But Moscow was never interested in fulfilling the wishes of the people to join Russia, so an unfortunate situation set up. Russia was not prepared to annex the region and put an end to the war (as it could so easily have done), but neither was it prepared to abandon it to the stronger Kiev forces. So we have a perpetual stalemate, the separatists have enough assistance from Russia to survive. Kiev makes its own citizens suffer by cutting off pensions, funding, transport etc, and regularly fires artillery to destroy people's homes, but pretends that it wants Donbas back. In reality, that won't happen, although Minsk 2 is in shreds. It's a stalemate. But it's not an invasion in any meaningful sense since Donbas is controlled by Ukrainian separatists not the Russian army.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Your interpretation is different to mine, so let's just pause to understand the Russian perspective.

As always, there is the international perspective, and then the Russian perspective. In everything. Clearly the world is wrong and Moscow is always right.

And again, if Ukraine is not a sovereign nation, then neither is the Russian Federation. Both signed the same Creation Document (Belavezha Accords).

 

[Fledermaus]

:roll::roll:


Russia doesn't want to, and won't, invade Ukraine ...... it's a failing state and another economic drain which the West won't save.


My personal view is that Ukraine will correct the excesses of its current regime madness in making Russia an enemy.

Except it has invaded.

In Crimea and in Donbass.

 

[Westphalian]

Oh yes - how universalism has poisoned western minds.


That some people on a discussion forum can't even understand that it is possible to have very different interpretations of events in Ukraine does explain much about the moral and intellectual decline, and the rise of intolerance, in those western states.

 

[Chagos]

Oh yes - how universalism has poisoned western minds.


That some people on a discussion forum can't even understand that it is possible to have very different interpretations of events in Ukraine does explain much about the moral and intellectual decline, and the rise of intolerance, in those western states.

Oh, we understand full well that you probably even believe your own spin. And it shows much about the intellectual and moral decline that the policy you trumpet suffers. Maybe it even shows lots about you, unless, of course, you don't believe anything of what you spout and are just plain lying.

But either way, you'd do your standing far more good if you desisted from whining whenever your absurd narrative is challenged here.

As it will be.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Oh yes - how universalism has poisoned western minds. That some people on a discussion forum can't even understand that it is possible to have very different interpretations of events in Ukraine does explain much about the moral and intellectual decline, and the rise of intolerance, in those western states.

This thread is illustrative of how far out in goofy-town you are. Many different countries represented and no one is buying what you are attempting to sell.

 

[Fledermaus]

Oh yes - how universalism has poisoned western minds.


That some people on a discussion forum can't even understand that it is possible to have very different interpretations of events in Ukraine does explain much about the moral and intellectual decline, and the rise of intolerance, in those western states.

Russians in Crimea and Donbass = Invasion.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

A democratically elected pro Russian President was ousted in a violent coup, undoubtedly orchestrated by the CIA, in 2014.

Wrong. A dictatorial authoritarian ran away with his tail tucked between his legs when he realized the pro-EU Ukrainians were going to fight back, and this was AFTER the Ukrainian police used LIVE AMMO on PROTESTERS. Over 100 people died in the battle, with over half of that the work of the Russian-trained SBU (Ukrainian GRU) MILITARY SNIPERS.

The SBU is the successor intelligence agency to the Ukrainian branch of the Soviet-era KGB and it still maintains exceptionally close ties to Moscow. For many years “leading SBU functionaries came from the KGB,” says Boris Volodarsky, a former Russian military intelligence officer and author of the book The KGB’s Poison Factory. He says Russia’s intelligence service, now known as the FSB, has made sure over the years to maintain deep penetration of its Ukrainian counterpart and to ensure that its “agents and associates remain in place.” That was easily done during thepresidency of the pro-Russian Yanukovych.

A U.S. intelligence source says that “since the break-up of the Soviet Union, Western security services have considered Kiev to be FSB territory.” Instructors from Russian Special Forces have trained Alfa units.

February 20 marked a critical turning point in the conflict. It was the most violent day in the history of Ukraine since Soviet times and it proved to be the undoing of the Yanukovych regime. The snipers failed to break the spirit of Yanukovych’s opponents, but the carnage inspired key loyalists in his ruling Party of Regions, including the city’s mayor and members of the Rada, or parliament, to quit. The next day Yanukovych fled the capital, and then the country.

https://www.unian.net/politics/887247-nachalnik-hmelnitskogo-sbu-podal-v-otstavku.html

Now self-defense units are going to lead the head of the regional SBU to the regional prosecutor's office and demand that criminal proceedings be instituted against him.
20 February 2014

After Yanukovych signed an agreement, backed by EU governments, which would have seen a democratic transition to fresh elections, but this agreement was immediately shredded (without a whimper from its EU backers) as the violent CIA backed protestors continued their illegal seizure of power.

CONT'D

 

[Abbazorkzog]

It was Yanukovich who "shredded" the agreement. And the protesters were backed by the EU, not the US. The US didn't do anything to help or harm Ukraine one way or another until recently. In fact, a US official was once caught on tape saying "**** the EU," pretty casually. And, furthermore, they were NON-VIOLENT. And they were attacked by a ruthless regime/police state with MILITARY TACTICS. The Oblast of Lviv LITERALLY SECEDED from Yanukovich's regime over this. LITERALLY.

The new Kiev regime immediately began a campaign of hate towards Russian speakers, proposing to ban the language whilst accommodating ultra-nationalists in the regime.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Fearing the loss of access to its Crimean facilities, and mindful of the very distinct pro Russian identity of Crimea's population, authorities in Crimea and Moscow saw the opportunity to liberate Crimea from Ukraine (a matter which had long been on the agenda). The US did not see this coming. Its intelligence was dismally weak, and anyway Moscow signalled very strongly that this was existential to Russia. Neither Kiev nor Washington had any good options short of destroying the whole world. That matter is now closed barring the lip service.

There's so much wrong here I don't know where to start. I guess I'll just say that RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE. They literally HIRED BLACKWATER-CLASS MERCENARIES TO OCCUPY AN AIRPORT. I mean this has LITERALLY been reported EVERYWHERE REGARDLESS of political lean (with the exception of RT/Sputnik and the Alt-Right). EVERY other major Republican and Democratic and Independent and Libertarian and Right-Wing, Left-Wing, Centrist, Progressive, etc. website has reported on this.

In Donbas, pro Russian separatists saw a similar opportunity, and a civil war ensued. But Moscow was never interested in fulfilling the wishes of the people to join Russia, so an unfortunate situation set up. Russia was not prepared to annex the region and put an end to the war (as it could so easily have done), but neither was it prepared to abandon it to the stronger Kiev forces. So we have a perpetual stalemate, the separatists have enough assistance from Russia to survive. Kiev makes its own citizens suffer by cutting off pensions, funding, transport etc, and regularly fires artillery to destroy people's homes, but pretends that it wants Donbas back. In reality, that won't happen, although Minsk 2 is in shreds. It's a stalemate. But it's not an invasion in any meaningful sense since Donbas is controlled by Ukrainian separatists not the Russian army.

Your clearly building a strawman here to distract from the fact that RUSSIA INVADED AND OCCUPIED CRIMEA. They did EXACTLY what NATO did with Kosovo, only they hired Russian, Ukrainian and other-ethnicity mercenaries to do the dirty work. Either way, Russian men, weapons and money were involved in the Invasion of Crimea in March 2014.

 

[rocket88]

I don't disagree with you, except for the end of your last sentence.


But, swamped with RV's rose tinted Ukraine threads, there is little realisation of just how divided Ukraine is. Huge swathes of the east and south of Ukraine (forget Crimea and Donbas) are sympathetic to Russia, and are alientated from the Ukro-nationalists in Kiev and Galicia. They despise the forced Ukrainisation policy of Kiev and the nationlaists. I'd say about 30% of remaining Ukraine feels this way.

That leaves 70% who support the forced Ukrainisation policy - re-naming streets, banning Russian books, limiting Russian language media etc. But it's still a divided state, still riven by civil war with Donbas, still making an enemy of its more powerful neighbor, and still bankrupt (paying interest now to the IMF on the loans it can't afford). Public money is still being siphoned off by the corruption that Kiev has not tackled, and the EU isn't going to embrace or bail out this messed up cauldron.

Against this back-drop, the further dis-integration of Ukraine is possible, with or without Russia pressing the buttons.

Further disintegration of Ukraine in it's current form is inevitable. Put the Donbass and Crimea back under Kiev and there will be another pro-Russian President, and there will be another "revolution."

 

[Rogue Valley]

Further disintegration of Ukraine in it's current form is inevitable.

Hardly. Ukraine is tentatively scheduled for EU ascension in 2026.

 

[rocket88]

Hardly. Ukraine is tentatively scheduled for EU ascension in 2026.

Can't see it happening unless they make some changes.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Can't see it happening unless they make some changes.

They've met all EU benchmarks so far. The most difficult problem, of course, is dealing with corruption.

Currently vetting new Supreme Court justices, have a brand new US trained National Police force, and instituted a new Anti-Corruption Court.

 

[rocket88]

They've met all EU benchmarks so far. The most difficult problem, of course, is dealing with corruption.

Currently vetting new Supreme Court justices, have a brand new US trained National Police force, and instituted a new Anti-Corruption Court.

They don't have a stable democracy or territorial integrity. Ukraine in it's current form simply isn't ready. The EU admits them at their own peril.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Even if Poroshenko's government doesn't win the 2019 election (which looks likely), the populist who occupies the executive office can and will be ousted by more pro-Western groups before 2026.

RUSSIA, on the other hand, may not be around by then...

 

[CEngelbrecht]

OR, Russia realizes it is neither economically or militarily able to wage wars abroad like the United States, and collapses in on itself due to rank stupidity and a rapidly-disintegrating personality cult...

Didn't work for Germany.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Oh yes - how universalism has poisoned western minds.


That some people on a discussion forum can't even understand that it is possible to have very different interpretations of events in Ukraine does explain much about the moral and intellectual decline, and the rise of intolerance, in those western states.

They still pay you guys in vodka?

 

[CEngelbrecht]

Hardly. Ukraine is tentatively scheduled for EU ascension in 2026.

I guess that was the straw that finally broke Pootin's back. A Brexit and POTUS later ...

 

[CEngelbrecht]

They don't have a stable democracy or territorial integrity. Ukraine in it's current form simply isn't ready. The EU admits them at their own peril.

You're losing it all. And you have none but yourselves to blame. You were bad masters.

 

[Xelor]

That Ukraine obtained sovereignty in the late 20th century doesn't alter the fact that it did. Indeed, Ukraine obtained its sovereignty quite similarly to the way English colonies did: by declaring it and establishing a legislature. Ukraine's people, by plebiscite, also confirmed their approbation of the noted declaration.