The Confederate Flag

[it's just me]

I said my family didn't get here until the 80s. I was born in Miami in 81'. Don't know what's so unbelievable about that. :shrug:

As for why do I care? Because I'm decent person who doesn't want to have statues of dead racist up in public places in my country.

How about this? I'm a decent taxpayer who doesn't like vandals.

 

[Jezcoe]

Again, your alternative history fantasy is interesting, but it's all conjecture that the Confederacy could beat the North and take over Mexico even though the US couldn't do it in 1848. Same for Cuba. OTOH, if you ever come up with proof that's what would have happened, please let me know since I'm sincerely interested.

I never made the claim that the Confederacy would have been successful, just like secession would have never been successful.

It was clearly their intent to work to expand slave States southward and Westward.

 

[Master Debator]

How about this? I'm a decent taxpayer who doesn't like vandals.

So? I'm against vandalism as well. Generally. If it happened to a racist statue I wouldn't be broken up about it or anything but no. I want them taken down legally, deliberately and in the faces of all the confederate sympathizers. Preferably in broad daylight.

:thumbs:

 

[eman623]

How do you know? What would a Klukker hang off his front porch? What would a white supremacist fly? The Confederate flag! So if I do what racists do, and did in the south in the civil rights era, and has done for the past half century, why would you assume something different?

But why is it different than you calling a woman the c-word? Those dang women, always taking offense - that's THEIR PROBLEM NOT MINE!!

And if I call a woman that, knowing she'll be offended, and I fly a Loser's flag knowing many blacks and whites WILL BE offended, how are those actions different? That's what I don't get.

The only thing that makes sense is the flag isn't offensive to you, and so you don't care if it is to others.

How do I know why people hang the flag? Just ask! The man in the opening post was asked and said quite clearly that it was a heritage thing and had nothing to do with racism. He didn't say whether he was trying to be offensive, but it didn't sound like it.

And yes, in this case, assuming he;s not trying to be offensive, what he thinks is all that matters. If other people are still offended anyway, that's too bad for them.

 

[Jezcoe]

How do I know why people hang the flag? Just ask! The man in the opening post was asked and said quite clearly that it was a heritage thing and had nothing to do with racism. He didn't say whether he was trying to be offensive, but it didn't sound like it.

And yes, in this case, assuming he;s not trying to be offensive, what he thinks is all that matters. If other people are still offended anyway, that's too bad for them.

If someone in 2020 wants to fly a Confederate Flag... more power to them. No one is going to stop them from doing so.

The person flying a Confederate Flag in 2020 should not be surprised or feign ignorance though that by doing so a major portion of the populace will assume that he/she is a racist asshole.

Because in 2020, that is what flying that flag is saying to the world.

 

[eman623]

If someone in 2020 wants to fly a Confederate Flag... more power to them. No one is going to stop them from doing so.

The person flying a Confederate Flag in 2020 should not be surprised or feign ignorance though that by doing so a major portion of the populace will assume that he/she is a racist asshole.

Because in 2020, that is what flying that flag is saying to the world.

The man in the OP is definitely setting himself up for hate from intolerant jerks. You have to admire that.

But the left doesn't get to decide what that flag means, "to the world." That's just them abrogating to themselves the role as cultural arbiter. Again. The left does that a lot.

Everyone gets to decide for himself what that flag means.

 

[Divine_Wind]

I just see a lot of conservative memes about, "the liberals don't tolerate my intolerance. Where is the party of tolerance?". Kind of like the meme that you posted.

Yeah, they don't work.

IMO, the Libertarians are the most tolerant as a party although individual vary. Both the Democrats and Republicans have moved toward intolerant extremes. Unfortunately, in a “two-party” country, third parties have a tough time breaking in. That said, the Republican Party replaced the Whigs with Abe Lincoln being the first Republican President. It is entirely possible, and, IMHO, likely that the Republican Party AKA the Party of Trump is headed for collapse. Conservatives won’t go away, they’ll just switch parties as happened in the past.

 

[Divine_Wind]

I never made the claim that the Confederacy would have been successful, just like secession would have never been successful.

It was clearly their intent to work to expand slave States southward and Westward.

Disagreed, but if you didn’t then why did you bring it up?

Sure, their intent, but it was unlikely to ever happen even if Lincoln didn’t invade the South and start the Civil War for the reasons I mentioned.

You do know that Mexico didn’t have slaves don’t you? That it was against the law?

Their main concern was that slavery would be outlawed in Western states and then, with a large influx of Senators and Representatives, the abolitionists would ban slavery throughout the land and collapse the economy of the South....which is exactly what happened and which is still a problem in the South 150 years later.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Please cite at least one single post where I supported slavery. In fact, I've condemned slavery several times as have others whom you have just falsely accused.

I'm not referring to anyone specifically, just those who are trying to sweeten and white-wash the reason for the Confederacy, the Confederate monuments, and the symbolism of the Confederate flag. Any progressive Democrats doing this? Shouldn’t they be the ones to defend the legacy of the Democratic Party, not Trump-supporting Republicans? Oh right... the Confederates were SOUTHERN conservatives. Hence the truth behind the party switch.

 

[Jezcoe]

The man in the OP is definitely setting himself up for hate from intolerant jerks. You have to admire that.

But the left doesn't get to decide what that flag means, "to the world." That's just them abrogating to themselves the role as cultural arbiter. Again. The left does that a lot.

Everyone gets to decide for himself what that flag means.

He of course gets to make it mean whatever he wants it to, but to the majority of the world he is a stranger and the signal he is putting out there is that he is a racist asshole, because to a lot of people that is what it means.

Every time I see a Confederate Flag flying in Maine I think, "Heritage not Hate" and laugh to myself.

This isn't a left/right thing... this is a matter of reality.

 

[Jezcoe]

Disagreed, but if you didn’t then why did you bring it up?

Sure, their intent, but it was unlikely to ever happen even if Lincoln didn’t invade the South and start the Civil War for the reasons I mentioned.

You do know that Mexico didn’t have slaves don’t you? That it was against the law?

Their main concern was that slavery would be outlawed in Western states and then, with a large influx of Senators and Representatives, the abolitionists would ban slavery throughout the land and collapse the economy of the South....which is exactly what happened and which is still a problem in the South 150 years later.

You see... you are almost there. Almost grasping at the expansionist mindset of the Confederacy to keep and maintain the power to own human beings, but for some reason refusing to make that last tiny step.

Why is that?

 

[eman623]

He of course gets to make it mean whatever he wants it to, but to the majority of the world he is a stranger and the signal he is putting out there is that he is a racist asshole, because to a lot of people that is what it means.

Every time I see a Confederate Flag flying in Maine I think, "Heritage not Hate" and laugh to myself.

This isn't a left/right thing... this is a matter of reality.

The majority of the world is not right 100% of the time. You don't see a lot of stars and bars flags flying in Northern California, but if I saw one my first thought would be, "must be a Southerner." My 2nd would be to ask myself, "Racist? Or just making a statement about heritage?"

At that point I'd probably forget about it. I got enough to worry about already.

Still it's a pretty brave thing to do. A very southern thing.

 

[Dans La Lune]

IMO, the Libertarians are the most tolerant as a party although individual vary. Both the Democrats and Republicans have moved toward intolerant extremes. Unfortunately, in a “two-party” country, third parties have a tough time breaking in. That said, the Republican Party replaced the Whigs with Abe Lincoln being the first Republican President. It is entirely possible, and, IMHO, likely that the Republican Party AKA the Party of Trump is headed for collapse. Conservatives won’t go away, they’ll just switch parties as happened in the past.

Unfortunately right-wing libertarianism is basically the ideology of Ayn Rand in disguise and probably the only ideology that can compete with Trumpism in terms of pure selfishness.

 

[Master Debator]

The majority of the world is not right 100% of the time. You don't see a lot of stars and bars flags flying in Northern California, but if I saw one my first thought would be, "must be a Southerner." My 2nd would be to ask myself, "Racist? Or just making a statement about heritage?"

At that point I'd probably forget about it. I got enough to worry about already.

Still it's a pretty brave thing to do. A very southern thing.

I'm glad you think someone who displays the Confederate flag is brave. It means your scared and I like you Confederate sympathizers scared.

 

[j brown's body]

IMO, the Libertarians are the most tolerant as a party although individual vary. Both the Democrats and Republicans have moved toward intolerant extremes. Unfortunately, in a “two-party” country, third parties have a tough time breaking in. That said, the Republican Party replaced the Whigs with Abe Lincoln being the first Republican President. It is entirely possible, and, IMHO, likely that the Republican Party AKA the Party of Trump is headed for collapse. Conservatives won’t go away, they’ll just switch parties as happened in the past.

Libertarianism is simply a reason for people who have property and power to keep it all for themselves and use it to get more of it.

 

[Divine_Wind]

I'm not referring to anyone specifically, just those who are trying to sweeten and white-wash the reason for the Confederacy, the Confederate monuments, and the symbolism of the Confederate flag. Any progressive Democrats doing this? Shouldn’t they be the ones to defend the legacy of the Democratic Party, not Trump-supporting Republicans? Oh right... the Confederates were SOUTHERN conservatives. Hence the truth behind the party switch.

Sooooo you can’t do as you claimed. Of course you can’t because you were wrong in claiming anyone here favored slavery.

The problem with your and posts like yours is that you automatically assume “States Rights” = pro-slavery. That’s not correct. In fact it is wildly wrong and is just a big fat lie to spread a specific and deceitful ideology which divides Americans by calling anyone who disagrees with you a “racist”.

FWIW, I was career military where we were taught that everyone is an essential member of the team. Race and religion were irrelevant. My dad was career military and I grew up on desegregated military bases going to desegregated DOD schools in the 1960s when off-base schools were seeing riots and racial strife. As a kid I didn’t get what the problem was since race was never an issue on base. Although, human nature being what it is, there were “incidents” when I was in the Marine Corps, those were quickly rectified. The most memorable one was when my squadron was being transported to Okinawa on a C-5 and it developed a fuel leak. We were stuck at the USAF airport terminal for over 12 hours waiting for the plane to be fixed. The terminal had a cafe and it served beer. After too many beers, our maintenance Warrant Officer made one too many racially insensitive remarks and a well-liked Gunnery Sergeant decked him. That’s a bad situation all the way around but since the WO was known to be a dick and the GySgt was well liked, plus everyone in the squadron knew the Gunny was in the right, there was no known NJP. The only result of that incident was we were forbidden from drinking before or during our flight back 6 months later.

 

[ecofarm]

Sooooo you can’t do as you claimed. Of course you can’t because you were wrong in claiming anyone here favored slavery.

The problem with your and posts like yours is that you automatically assume “States Rights” = pro-slavery. That’s not correct. In fact it is wildly wrong and is just a big fat lie to spread a specific and deceitful ideology which divides Americans by calling anyone who disagrees with you a “racist”.

FWIW, I was career military where we were taught that everyone is an essential member of the team. Race and religion were irrelevant. My dad was career military and I grew up on desegregated military bases going to desegregated DOD schools in the 1960s when off-base schools were seeing riots and racial strife. As a kid I didn’t get what the problem was since race was never an issue on base. Although, human nature being what it is, there were “incidents” when I was in the Marine Corps, those were quickly rectified. The most memorable one was when my squadron was being transported to Okinawa on a C-5 and it developed a fuel leak. We were stuck at the USAF airport terminal for over 12 hours waiting for the plane to be fixed. The terminal had a cafe and it served beer. After too many beers, our maintenance Warrant Officer made one too many racially insensitive remarks and a well-liked Gunnery Sergeant decked him. That’s a bad situation all the way around but since the WO was known to be a dick and the GySgt was well liked, plus everyone in the squadron knew the Gunny was in the right, there was no known NJP. The only result of that incident was we were forbidden from drinking before or during our flight back 6 months later.

Why is your avatar a racist spaceship?

 

[Divine_Wind]

Libertarianism is simply a reason for people who have property and power to keep it all for themselves and use it to get more of it.

An expected reply from a totalitarian who puts a traitor and a murderer on a pedestal. Your claim is completely wrong, of course, but I also know you are not going to change your opinion for the reasons I’ve posted in the quoted post.

 

[Master Debator]

Sooooo you can’t do as you claimed. Of course you can’t because you were wrong in claiming anyone here favored slavery.

The problem with your and posts like yours is that you automatically assume “States Rights” = pro-slavery. That’s not correct. In fact it is wildly wrong and is just a big fat lie to spread a specific and deceitful ideology which divides Americans by calling anyone who disagrees with you a “racist”.

FWIW, I was career military where we were taught that everyone is an essential member of the team. Race and religion were irrelevant. My dad was career military and I grew up on desegregated military bases going to desegregated DOD schools in the 1960s when off-base schools were seeing riots and racial strife. As a kid I didn’t get what the problem was since race was never an issue on base. Although, human nature being what it is, there were “incidents” when I was in the Marine Corps, those were quickly rectified. The most memorable one was when my squadron was being transported to Okinawa on a C-5 and it developed a fuel leak. We were stuck at the USAF airport terminal for over 12 hours waiting for the plane to be fixed. The terminal had a cafe and it served beer. After too many beers, our maintenance Warrant Officer made one too many racially insensitive remarks and a well-liked Gunnery Sergeant decked him. That’s a bad situation all the way around but since the WO was known to be a dick and the GySgt was well liked, plus everyone in the squadron knew the Gunny was in the right, there was no known NJP. The only result of that incident was we were forbidden from drinking before or during our flight back 6 months later.

Who cares? You're still trying to protect the statues of racist slavers.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Why is your avatar a racist spaceship?

LOL. So now you believe a fictitious spaceship is racist. Awesome. Unsurprising, but still awesome.

 

[Master Debator]

Why is your avatar a racist spaceship?

Hes so mad he can't even bring it to a Nascar race even as he knows Nascar would never ban a flag with the black power fist or a rainbow flag.


:lamo

 

[Divine_Wind]

Who cares? You're still trying to protect the statues of racist slavers.

You care. Yes, ,most here know you want to destroy all the statues of Washington and Jefferson. It was in your very first post on this thread.

 

[Master Debator]

You care. Yes, ,most here know you want to destroy all the statues of Washington and Jefferson. It was in your very first post on this thread.

I meant who cares about your service. Obviously I desire the removal of racist idols

 

[ecofarm]

LOL. So now you believe a fictitious spaceship is racist. Awesome. Unsurprising, but still awesome.

Space Slavers. A new epic.

 

[ecofarm]

Hes so mad he can't even bring it to a Nascar race even as he knows Nascar would never ban a flag with the black power fist or a rainbow flag.


:lamo

Now that you mention it. It is unrealistic for there to be no slaver flags at speeder events.