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the bombing of Dresden in 1945

Legitimate question. Are we litigating the actions of the past, in this case WWII bombing of Dresden, for the purposes of historical learning? Or, is this about a comparison to what has become fairly common place from WWII to current when it comes to arguably modern urban warfare tactics?
 
Careful. A reminder, if Germany had not seized Czechoslovakia it wouldn't have been an issue.
twatsch …. you have no idea

you


should be careful ….
 
Dresden and the use of nuclear weapons on Japan (perhaps the most successful acts or terrorism in history, killing many tens of thousands of innocents for the political objective of unconditional surrender) showed what blood lust does when war starts. Guernica - as shown by a previous poster - shocked the world in the late 1930s. No one would have believed we would do what we did just a few years later. Our technology triumphed over our morality. The worst Medieval inquisitor would have been shocked and disbelieving if told that a Christian nation would act as we did. I am reminded of a relatively minor incident of “blood lust” depicted in the film Lawrence of Arabia, after Lawrence cries “no prisoners.” That “retail” massacre of Turks appears more horrific than the wholesale slaughter-at-a-distance of WWII.


I have to disagree with you. Nothing that was done during WWII was new, in terms of morality; just the tech was different. Laying seiges to cities was extremely tedious business; could last for months. A city about to be beseiged was given an offer to surrender. Which the beseiged could accept or reject. But once the seige begins the beseiged had one hope: that the seige is not successful. If not, only total destructioin awaited the beseiged.
 
Dresden and the use of nuclear weapons on Japan (perhaps the most successful acts or terrorism in history
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


 
I have to disagree with you. Nothing that was done during WWII was new, in terms of morality; just the tech was different. Laying seiges to cities was extremely tedious business; could last for months. A city about to be beseiged was given an offer to surrender. Which the beseiged could accept or reject. But once the seige begins the beseiged had one hope: that the seige is not successful. If not, only total destructioin awaited the beseiged.
I repeat and agree that our morality did not keep up with our technology. Yes, there were horrific massacres of the innocent dating back to the Crusades, more horrific ones if you take the Old Testament literally, but the deliberate killing of so many seems unprecedented.
 
Careful. A reminder, if Germany had not seized Czechoslovakia it wouldn't have been an issue.

It's always an issue.
The tribal mindset was great for the first part of Human evolution, since it was an improvement over pure egotism, but it is disastrous in the modern age.
The only tribe ought to be the Human tribe.
 
It's always an issue.
The tribal mindset was great for the first part of Human evolution, since it was an improvement over pure egotism, but it is disastrous in the modern age.
The only tribe ought to be the Human tribe.
Again, a reminder, it was Germany that stole the Sudatenland, then swallowed up Czechloslavakia. It was Germany and the USSR that invaded Poland and started WW2. It was Germany that invaded Western Europe, then Southern Europe, then the USSR, killing million after million directly, sending them to death camps, or sending them to living death in underground factories. They wiped out village, town, and city.

There would literally have been no massacre at Bruno had the Germans not invaded Czechoslovakia.
 
Again, a reminder, it was Germany that stole the Sudatenland, then swallowed up Czechloslavakia. It was Germany and the USSR that invaded Poland and started WW2. It was Germany that invaded Western Europe, then Southern Europe, then the USSR, killing million after million directly, sending them to death camps, or sending them to living death in underground factories. They wiped out village, town, and city.

There would literally have been no massacre at Bruno had the Germans not invaded Czechoslovakia.

Sure there would. It would just have been in another place, for some other reason, against some other people, and called something else.
Tribalism means that we hate people we have never met because they belong to a specific group. It's not a behaviour that specifically evolved in Nazis; it evolved in Humans.

Claiming that the hate your group has for another is completely justified, whereas theirs is not, may be quite correct, but it is something that requires close examination.
That's why it's so important to learn about logical standards, train your abstract thinking, and how to apply both regardless of personal feelings in order to reach something approaching an objective conclusion. And incidentally, you will note that certain tribes have always hated logic as a consequence thereof, as it threatened the legitimacy of their hate. (the Nazis for example.)

And that's without considering that some actions are not ok, even if the hate that compels them is justified.
 
Sure there would. It would just have been in another place, for some other reason, against some other people, and called something else.
Tribalism means that we hate people we have never met because they belong to a specific group. It's not a behaviour that specifically evolved in Nazis; it evolved in Humans.
This is a level of cynicism and pessimism that I respect 👺 !
 
The area bombing doctrine, which is basically to point out a target and indiscriminately damage, destroy, and kill as much as possible, can be considered justifiable under certain circumstances. It depends on the kind of war you are in and what kind of impact it makes on the enemy's war effort. In the case of Barbarians at the gate (not just as an idle expression, but as in "actual savages who want to enslave and murder our entire population are winning"), I consider it quite acceptable, and so did the Allies in WW2. We were indeed up against some pretty nasty customers and precision bombing simply didn't make any meaningful impact.

In WW2 the shift from precision to area bombing was not simple. It was a gargantuan process that could not easily be reversed once implemented. That meant that as it was becoming less justifiable, you couldn't just snap your fingers and do something else. As the war neared it's end, it was obviously becoming less justifiable as there weren't all that many worthwhile targets left, and killing 10,000 civilians to destroy a small sausage factory can be somewhat difficult to explain away. However, area bombing was an entire doctrine and it was what the strategic air forces of the US and Britain had been built and trained for. Operations would have to be more or less grind to a halt while the doctrine was updated, and we simply weren't going to do that. It would mean giving the enemy a breather, spending resources on huge arsenals that were not being used to defeat the enemy, and worst of all, that some of the top brass might be out of a job and have their ranks and pensions endangered.

So we kept bombing until it was clear to everyone that we were were just killing a bunch of civilians, and then we stopped.
In the case of Dresden, the bombing was senseless because the Germans were already beaten. War production was limited, and the transport hub at Dresden was not shipping massive amounts of supplies and reinforcements to the front because there were no such supplies or reinforcements to be sent. In the case of Tokyo it was justifiable at the time, as it was a major production hub (not just for airplanes), but Japanese war production was made completely irrelevant six months later with the events at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, meaning that all the weapons produced there would never see use against us. I doubt if the generals who planned the bombing knew that at the time, but nonetheless it was a distinctly bitter situation for the Japanese civilians who lost their homes and families in the raid. Which is why I called it senseless. A lot of brutality that turned out to be for almost nothing.
If I was Japanese, I would be unhappy with my government over the atomic bombings. They knew they were going to have to surrender as soon as we overran their defenses on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Since we overran those defenses, we would also overrun anything they could put up to defend their home islands. Yet the Japanese government put off surrendering over some foolish hope that the Soviets would help them end the war in a draw.

On the other hand, Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably saved the human race. The Cuban Missile Crisis would have turned out a lot differently had the US and USSR not had the example of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to restrain them.


More. The figure of 25000 is based on sources that can be considered reliable, but Dresden was not exactly in a state to provide later historians with reliable sources. It may not have been 60000 as the neo-nazis claim, but it was probably a lot more than 25000.
I doubt it. There is no reason to think that the figure was any higher.
 
If I was Japanese, I would be unhappy with my government over the atomic bombings. They knew they were going to have to surrender as soon as we overran their defenses on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Since we overran those defenses, we would also overrun anything they could put up to defend their home islands. Yet the Japanese government put off surrendering over some foolish hope that the Soviets would help them end the war in a draw.
One could argue that moment was the invasion of the Marianas. It effectively ended their naval air arm. Going into the battle of Leyte Gulf, many of the officers knew they were going on a death ride.
On the other hand, Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably saved the human race. The Cuban Missile Crisis would have turned out a lot differently had the US and USSR not had the example of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to restrain them.
Indeed, those tragedies may have kept the Cold War Cold.
 
One could argue that moment was the invasion of the Marianas. It effectively ended their naval air arm. Going into the battle of Leyte Gulf, many of the officers knew they were going on a death ride.
Japan lost their naval air power (and therefore all their offensive capability) then. And that is also when the US gained runways from which to launch massive B-29 raids. But Japan still hoped that their army would be able to repel any ground invasion.

They had a second blow after they lost the Marianas. When we captured the Philippines, their oil supplies were cut off and their industry ground to a halt. But still they hoped that they would be able to repel a ground invasion.

After Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Japan knew that their army would not be able to repel a ground invasion. It would have been a massive bloodbath, but they knew that US forces would prevail.
 
After Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Japan knew that their army would not be able to repel a ground invasion. It would have been a massive bloodbath, but they knew that US forces would prevail.
If nothing else, anything after the invasion of Okinawa. Not only, as you say they see their defenses don't hold, including mass use of Kamikazes, but now they are positioned to blockade/invade.

Subs and B29s can roam at will and at short range, sinking anything afloat with mines. fighter and medium bombers can scour Japan on a rampage. Its nuts at that point.
 
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I doubt it. There is no reason to think that the figure was any higher.

Sure there is.
The reason we accept the figure of 25000 is because we simply can't approach it any closer using reliable methods. We do have some idea of what constitutes undocumented deaths, but not how many there were, only that it was most likely a quite significant number. However, you can't simply add a flat percentage to the documented numbers to account for that and still consider the figure reliable, so those deaths are estimated very conservatively. But it should be understood that this is a matter of reliability, not of probability.

Same thing goes for ww2 war crimes btw. We know that there were alot more than are documented, but we can't provide a reliable figure. All we can do is look at casualty figures, witness accounts, and war crimes trials. Same goes for more recent conflict up to and including Ukraine. Even with todays technology, the dead don't always have a voice.
 
We do have some idea of what constitutes undocumented deaths, but not how many there were, only that it was most likely a quite significant number.
What is the evidence that there were undocumented deaths?
 
What is the evidence that there were undocumented deaths?

Are you asking for evidence for the lack of evidence? ;)
Well, that actually exists aplenty.
  • High temperature fires incinerating bodily remains
  • Use of explosives destroying bodily remains
  • Collapsed buildings burying bodily remains
  • Inadequate cleanup effort due to lack of resources
  • Hurried cleanup due to risk of contagion
  • Official documents destroyed in firestorm
  • Undocumented patients in hospitals
  • Undocumented slave workers in factories
  • Undocumented refugees present in city
  • Not all mass graves being exhumed for proper reburial
So there are lots of missing bodies and lots of documentation that was either destroyed or never existed in the first place. Basically it comes down to guesstimation for the unknown figures, and historians who desire to be taken seriously tend to be a rather conservative lot.
 
Are you asking for evidence for the lack of evidence? ;)
No. I'm asking for evidence that there were actually uncounted deaths. A reason to believe that the figure of 25,000 is an undercount.

Something more concrete than "well, it could have happened".

I realize that there would not be any numbers for the amount of these uncounted deaths. But it seems like there would be some evidence that the uncounted deaths actually happened, if they actually happened.
 
I realize that there would not be any numbers for the amount of these uncounted deaths. But it seems like there would be some evidence that the uncounted deaths actually happened, if they actually happened.

Unfortunately, that's not really how it works.
To take a current conflict as an example, we don't really know how many people have died in the Ukraine war. Even with today's technology, it is only a minority of the casualty statistics that consist of named individuals whom we can accurately track. The rest is estimation, including uncounted deaths. Those exist for Dresden as well and are subject to far greater fluctuation for a variety of reasons. However as I mentioned, historians tend to make notoriously conservative estimates, because getting them wrong has ruined many a promising career trajectory.

It is however statistically inevitable that there were uncounted deaths because of the factors I summed up, and estimates have already been made for them and included in the current figures (it wasn't me that got the idea to include them). The question then is simply how how correct said figures are.

Brown University does some really good research on the subject of casualty estimates, though they concentrate on conflicts since the 2000's.
(In case anyone is interested and has a couple of hours available. Some of the projects publicize their methodology.)
 
I have to disagree with you. Nothing that was done during WWII was new, in terms of morality; just the tech was different. Laying seiges to cities was extremely tedious business; could last for months. A city about to be beseiged was given an offer to surrender. Which the beseiged could accept or reject. But once the seige begins the beseiged had one hope: that the seige is not successful. If not, only total destructioin awaited the beseiged.

And the alternative was for the city to declare themselves an "open city", and essentially surrender and avoid destruction.

Which may or may not be accepted by the attackers. Both Japan and Germany had a history before and during WWII of ignoring a city declaring itself open and laying waste to it anyways. That happened many time during the Second SIno-Japanese War as well as Manilla. And the Germans did it in Belgrade and many cities in Poland.
 
I realize that there would not be any numbers for the amount of these uncounted deaths.

A lot of the problem is the automatic assumption that all of those who are "uncounted" are dead.

Simple fact, after a major war a lot of people will simply "disappear" but are not dead. They may have ties to the previous administration and want to disassociate themselves from it by making a new identity. We saw that when a hell of a lot of Nazis did not go through "Denazification" and instead blended into the background under new identities. Some of which were actual war criminals.

Others may want to do so for personal reasons. A bad marriage, a business that failed, or many other things. The wake up as the city is in ruins, and decide they no longer want to be John Smith, but be Harry Jones. Suddenly, John Smith is nowhere to be found, so is assumed to be dead. Or may have simply fled to another area and never returned, so all of those who knew them assume they are dead when in reality they live 200 miles away.

One can not simply assume that any that are no longer in the city after such events are dead. Especially as in the later months of NSDAP Germany they started to conscript a hell of a lot of people from all over the nation. So a Johann Schmitt might not have even been in Dresden but had been drafted into the Wehrmacht and actually died in Berlin fighting the Soviets. But all many would know is that he was in Dresden before the bombing, and was never heard from again.
 
Neither should have Hamas, but that doesn't stop people from accusing Israel of fighting in order to deliberately exterminate all Palestinians ("genocide")
You can call it genocide when the IDF systematically wipes out the Palestinian west bank. Until then... not so much.
 
I repeat and agree that our morality did not keep up with our technology. Yes, there were horrific massacres of the innocent dating back to the Crusades, more horrific ones if you take the Old Testament literally, but the deliberate killing of so many seems unprecedented.
Not unprecedented and actually quite normal and mundane for the longest parts of our history. For most of history and before, being innocent really meant nothing as being on the losing side or just being the way or a convenient mark meant in all likelihood one was doomed to to have their subscription to life permanently revoked by whomever was in a foul mood at the time.
 
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