Tax Bill Calculator: Will Your Taxes Go Up or Down?

[MrWonka]

I see, so you can take money from the Walmart CEO and give it to the medical insurance CEOs, medical care CEOs and pharma CEOs and say that it was done on behalf of the poor Walmart greeter.

When you pay for health care the doctor and the nurse get paid as well, and the greeter gets to live so yeah. Also, the rest of those CEO's will be paying taxes as well so.......

That is a sure fire way of controlling insurance, medical care and drug prices - adding more customers at full fare (plus profit) while using public funds to do so.

Right, see if you don't get that care and drugs you die. So there's already a demand for it, it's just not getting filled because nobody has the money.

But here's the actual reality. What causes medical care and drug prices to be so high in the first place? The fact that all those poor people do get it. They just don't pay for it. So you and I already end up paying more than we should because we have to cover them. You see hospitals don't just let patients die or stay sick because they can't pay for it. They have to look these people in the eye, and they realize that would be morally wrong. So instead they help them, and when they can't pay they charge everyone else more money for it.

Now, I generally don't have a problem with that at all so long as the people I'm covering actually do need it. But here's the problem. There are millions of people in this country who could afford it if they contributed at least something towards health insurance every month. Some could even afford to pay their full premium they just recklessly choose not to because they think their invincible and they want a new motorcycle instead.

By mandating that everyone must buy health insurance, and then subsidizing those who can't afford it we're insuring that most of those people are contributing at least something toward their health care so the rest of us don't have to bail them out entirely.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/3979002-went-wrong-target

Your article is from a year and a half ago. Target has been doing just fine lately. In fact they announced in Semptember they were raising the starting wages of their workers to $11, and their stock prices have been growing ever since.

 

[jmotivator]

Okay, but then you don't get to drive on my roads, or call my police since I'm the one paying for them.

If the total cost of all of the highways you drive on and all the police who serve you comes to $760 annually then you can be pretty sure I avoid using them already.

 

[MrWonka]

Those are mostly funded through local taxes.

Which is why we allow people to write off their state taxes so that states can afford to raise money to pay for those things without driving off wealthy residents. That's gone now though so we're going to have to contribute more federal dollars towards it.

Also....does that include the interstate highway system which the poor states that destroy unions and undercut workers use to ship their cheap goods into wealthier high tax states for sale?

We are talking federal taxes please stay on topic instead of nonsense that doesn't apply.

Sure, let's make sure that terrorists only destroy your house and kill your family since liberals are the only ones funding the military. Don't you dare try and use Medicare for your health insurance when you get older and private companies are charging you a literal arm and leg for insurance either. Let's make sure that funds for disaster relief only go to liberals while we're at it. Let's also make sure that EBT cards, and unemployment checks can only be accepted at businesses owned by liberals.

 

[ttwtt78640]

When you pay for health care the doctor and the nurse get paid as well, and the greeter gets to live so yeah. Also, the rest of those CEO's will be paying taxes as well so.......



Right, see if you don't get that care and drugs you die. So there's already a demand for it, it's just not getting filled because nobody has the money.

But here's the actual reality. What causes medical care and drug prices to be so high in the first place? The fact that all those poor people do get it. They just don't pay for it. So you and I already end up paying more than we should because we have to cover them. You see hospitals don't just let patients die or stay sick because they can't pay for it. They have to look these people in the eye, and they realize that would be morally wrong. So instead they help them, and when they can't pay they charge everyone else more money for it.

Now, I generally don't have a problem with that at all so long as the people I'm covering actually do need it. But here's the problem. There are millions of people in this country who could afford it if they contributed at least something towards health insurance every month. Some could even afford to pay their full premium they just recklessly choose not to because they think their invincible and they want a new motorcycle instead.

By mandating that everyone must buy health insurance, and then subsidizing those who can't afford it we're insuring that most of those people are contributing at least something toward their health care so the rest of us don't have to bail them out entirely.




Your article is from a year and a half ago. Target has been doing just fine lately. In fact they announced in Semptember they were raising the starting wages of their workers to $11, and their stock prices have been growing ever since.

That (bolded above) makes no sense at all. If the Walmart greeter was already getting medical care at general public expense then what problem did you solve by giving them "private" insurance at public expense? It seems that you simply added more profit to the middle man (the "private" insurance company) and the Walmart greeter is no better off. It is not like we actually saw that advertised $2,500 annual savings or that ER usage went down after PPACA but insurance company premiums and profits did go up.

 

[MrWonka]

If the total cost of all of the highways you drive on and all the police who serve you comes to $760 annually then you can be pretty sure I avoid using them already.

Oh, don't worry. Us smart liberals are going to pool our money together. We'll only build the roads on our half of the country, and stop sending the Republican states all our tax dollars. We won't tell you the new number for 911, and charge you a massive toll to use our roads.

 

[MrWonka]

That (bolded above) makes no sense at all. If the Walmart greeter was already getting medical care at general public expense then what problem did you solve by giving them "private" insurance at public expense?

First, he can go to a clinic or urgent care instead of going to the more expensive emergency room all the time.

Second, if he gets promoted to manager and makes and start making a little bit more money he will then have to pay at least some of his own medical bills. Still not all of them, but by contributing something he'll help lower the cost for the rest of us.

It seems that you simply added more profit to the middle man

No, actually the middle man makes roughly the same profit, but we also required them to spend most of their money on actual health care costs and less on advertising which helps lower costs as well. We also forced them to cover more things, at greater expenses in exchange for helping them get more customers.

It is not like we actually saw that advertised $2,500 annual savings or that ER usage went down after PPACA

Actually we did, you're just not factoring in all the costs. See health care costs were already rising at a rate of 12% per year annually. What the ACA did was bend that curve so while costs still rose a bit they rose at a rate that was closer to normal inflation.

We also made sure insurance actually covered things it's supposed to. What that means is that hundreds of thousands of people who got sick got covered where in the past they wouldn't have and gotten stuck with a massive bill. The average customer doesn't notice that, but it did happen. You see that's the problem with insurance is that about 90% of people don't really benefit from it in a given year, and they're not supposed to. The result is that people tend to buy bad insurance because they're focused so much on the premiums and the deductables, and rarely realize how little they're actually being covered for until they need it. But by then it's too late and they're ****ed.

If the ACA raised the cost of your monthly insurance it's because you had ****ty insurance and you weren't as well covered as you probably thought you were. You might have felt like you were getting a good deal, but if you ever had to use that insurance for a really serious medical issue you'd find yourself bankrupt, and wonder why you ever bought it in the first place.

 

[ttwtt78640]

First, he can go to a clinic or urgent care instead of going to the more expensive emergency room all the time.

Second, if he gets promoted to manager and makes and start making a little bit more money he will then have to pay at least some of his own medical bills. Still not all of them, but by contributing something he'll help lower the cost for the rest of us.


No, actually the middle man makes roughly the same profit, but we also required them to spend most of their money on actual health care costs and less on advertising which helps lower costs as well. We also forced them to cover more things, at greater expenses in exchange for helping them get more customers.



Actually we did, you're just not factoring in all the costs. See health care costs were already rising at a rate of 12% per year annually. What the ACA did was bend that curve so while costs still rose a bit they rose at a rate that was closer to normal inflation.

We also made sure insurance actually covered things it's supposed to. What that means is that hundreds of thousands of people who got sick got covered where in the past they wouldn't have and gotten stuck with a massive bill. The average customer doesn't notice that, but it did happen. You see that's the problem with insurance is that about 90% of people don't really benefit from it in a given year, and they're not supposed to. The result is that people tend to buy bad insurance because they're focused so much on the premiums and the deductables, and rarely realize how little they're actually being covered for until they need it. But by then it's too late and they're ****ed.

If the ACA raised the cost of your monthly insurance it's because you had ****ty insurance and you weren't as well covered as you probably thought you were. You might have felt like you were getting a good deal, but if you ever had to use that insurance for a really serious medical issue you'd find yourself bankrupt, and wonder why you ever bought it in the first place.

It is nice to know that PPACA fixed everything and that medical care costs are now increasing just as we were promised. I feel all better now that you explained that so well.

 

[Threegoofs]

Precisely. Since the GOP lowered just about everyone's taxes and every Democrat voted against lowering those taxes I think it is a safe bet that if the tax spikes come it will be the Democrats making it happen.

There is still a slim chance the Democrats will come to their senses in the next 10 years, though.

Actually, it’s pretty clear what they’ll do- raise rates on high earners, eliminate the ridiculous pass through provisions, and slightly raise the corporate tax while giving tax relief to the majority.

That’s how to fix a ****ty law that even the GOP recognizes is so ****ty they need Democrats to save it.

 

[Threegoofs]

It is nice to know that PPACA fixed everything and that medical care costs are now increasing just as we were promised. I feel all better now that you explained that so well.

You realize that no one says the PPACA ‘fixed everything’, right?

You realize that costs have never been projected to go down, or even be stable, right?

You realize the ACA addressed some important things and bent the cost curve, just as advertised, right?

 

[ttwtt78640]

You realize that no one says the PPACA ‘fixed everything’, right?

You realize that costs have never been projected to go down, or even be stable, right?

You realize the ACA addressed some important things and bent the cost curve, just as advertised, right?

I realize that PPACA was said to lower average premiums by $2,500/year and to let you keep your current plan and doctor (provider?). What ever happened to that deal? My current plan, at the time PPACA passed and remains so to this day, is to pay cash for my medical care until I am eligible for Medicare or, preferably, Medicaid.

 

[MrWonka]

It is nice to know that PPACA fixed everything and that medical care costs are now increasing decreasing just as we were promised. I feel all better now that you explained that so well.

Fixed it for you.

How Has Obamacare Impacted Health Care Spending in America? | Money

These increased costs for employers and employees alike may seem steep—up around 50% over the past eight years—but they could have risen far higher had the Affordable Care Act never passed. The Kaiser study shows that average family premiums rose 20% from 2011 to 2016. That rate of increase is actually much lower than the previous five years (up 31% from 2006 to 2011) and the five years before that (up 63% from 2001 to 2006).

Pointing to data from Kaiser, a White House press release recently stated, “The average premium for a family with employer coverage is now almost $3,600 lower than if premium growth since 2010 had matched the decade preceding the Affordable Care Act.”

 

[MrWonka]

My current plan, at the time PPACA passed and remains so to this day, is to pay cash for my medical care until I am eligible for Medicare or, preferably, Medicaid.

Not, an actual plan, and blatantly reckless unless you're a billionaire.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Not, an actual plan, and blatantly reckless unless you're a billionaire.

Look at the bright side - I am saving the country $608/month by not using a PPACA (silver plan) subsidy and paying a (subsidized) premium of $101/month which would win me an annual deductible of only $1,138 (if I used only "in network" providers). My annual medical care costs are about $350/year or ($29.16/month) - that includes a 25% discount for paying cash at the time of service and carefully shopping for my prescription drug.

 

[jmotivator]

Oh, don't worry. Us smart liberals are going to pool our money together. We'll only build the roads on our half of the country, and stop sending the Republican states all our tax dollars. We won't tell you the new number for 911, and charge you a massive toll to use our roads.

Apparently you guys will be sending the Federal government more of your money... or is that "our money"? Can never keep straight when you lift wing types are willing to take ownership of money...

 

[MrWonka]

Apparently you guys will be sending the Federal government more of your money... or is that "our money"?

No, it's actually our money, and this move might actually save us some money in fact as it turns out liberal blue states tend to pay more money in taxes to the Federal government than what they get back. Whereas red Republican states on average tend to pay less in taxes to the federal government than what they get back.

 

[jmotivator]

Actually, it’s pretty clear what they’ll do- raise rates on high earners, eliminate the ridiculous pass through provisions, and slightly raise the corporate tax while giving tax relief to the majority.

Soooo the taxes won't spike in 2025? Glad you agree with me. Thanks for playing!

That’s how to fix a ****ty law that even the GOP recognizes is so ****ty they need Democrats to save it.

You mad, bro?

 

[jmotivator]

No, it's actually our money, and this move might actually save us some money in fact as it turns out liberal blue states tend to pay more money in taxes to the Federal government than what they get back. Whereas red Republican states on average tend to pay less in taxes to the federal government than what they get back.

Well, no, according to you it is not your money. Also, you will now be paying a federal rate closer to the rate those in low tax states pay.

"You pay a lower rate than me! You need to pay your fair share!" And so on.

 

[MrWonka]

Look at the bright side - I am saving the country $608/month by not using a PPACA (silver plan) subsidy and paying a (subsidized) premium of $101/month which would win me an annual deductible of only $1,138 (if I used only "in network" providers). My annual medical care costs are about $350/year or ($29.16/month) -

So you just don't understand what insurance is at all is what you're saying? Insurance isn't for your typical month to month or even year to year expenses. It's for when you get a bad appendicitis and end up in the ICU for the weekend needing emergency surgery. It's for when you step off a curb and get hit by a bus and get stuck in the ICU for two weeks. It's for when you realize (likely too late in your case) that you have colon cancer and need $100,000 treatments every month.

When that happens, you're not saving anybody any money at all. Your costing the rest of us.....Big Time. You can't pay that bill. We end up having to have charity raffles to raise money for you that still doesn't come close to covering your expenses. Or worse you just file for bankrupcty sticking the rest of us with your bills.

that includes a 25% discount for paying cash at the time of service and carefully shopping for my prescription drug.

The reason you get a 25% discount for paying cash is because pharmacies know you can't afford to pay full price and their affraid you won't take your drugs at all if they charge you full price. They give you a discount, and then bill my insurance company 25% more when I go to fill my perscription in order to make up the difference.

The purpose of the ACA is to protect the rest of us responsible adults from reckless people like you who think you're invincible and don't bother to make the responsible choice of getting insured until it's too late.

 

[MrWonka]

Well, no, according to you it is not your money.

Yes, it is. Since liberals are the only ones paying taxes that makes it ours.

Also, you will now be paying a federal rate closer to the rate those in low tax states pay.

No, we won't. Because now that we're controlling our own country we can reinstate the policy of allowing people to deduct their state taxes.

 

[jmotivator]

Yes, it is. Since liberals are the only ones paying taxes that makes it ours.

Hey cool! The wealthy people are the ones paying most of the taxes, so I guess those are their roads and police. You've solved for X!

No, we won't. Because now that we're controlling our own country we can reinstate the policy of allowing people to deduct their state taxes.

Yes, you will. Since there is now a cap on SALT it means that your blue staters will not be able to deduct so much state income tax and have to pay federal tax rates more in line with low tax states.... though I hazard a guess that your personal state tax deduction is well under the SALT cap.

 

[ludin]

Which is why we allow people to write off their state taxes so that states can afford to raise money to pay for those things without driving off wealthy residents. That's gone now though so we're going to have to contribute more federal dollars towards it.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Noting in this bill affects state taxes or how they are collected.
It does limit how much of your state taxes you can write off in your federal taxes which is completely different.
However this still does address what I said. I see you can't quite people properly why is that?

Also....does that include the interstate highway system which the poor states that destroy unions and undercut workers use to ship their cheap goods into wealthier high tax states for sale?

Which again has 0 to do with what I said.

Sure, let's make sure that terrorists only destroy your house and kill your family since liberals are the only ones funding the military. Don't you dare try and use Medicare for your health insurance when you get older and private companies are charging you a literal arm and leg for insurance either. Let's make sure that funds for disaster relief only go to liberals while we're at it. Let's also make sure that EBT cards, and unemployment checks can only be accepted at businesses owned by liberals.

Again has nothing to do with what I said.

Please stay on topic.

So you will be giving your tax cut back then?
I doubt you will.

So your meme is just that nothing.

 

[ludin]

Hey cool! The wealthy people are the ones paying most of the taxes, so I guess those are their roads and police. You've solved for X!



Yes, you will. Since there is now a cap on SALT it means that your blue staters will not be able to deduct so much state income tax and have to pay federal taxes rates more in line with low tax states.... though I hazard a guess that your state tax deduction is well under the SALT cap.

Unless you are uber rich with a massive house your salt is no where near 10k.
Again I don't know what he is complaining g about he gets to send more of his money to the federal government that is what liberals always push for you would think he would be happy.

You would think he would return his tax cut but nope he is going to keep it.
It is hard talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

[jmotivator]

Unless you are uber rich with a massive house your salt is no where near 10k.
Again I don't know what he is complaining g about he gets to send more of his money to the federal government that is what liberals always push for you would think he would be happy.

You would think he would return his tax cut but nope he is going to keep it.
It is hard talking out both sides of your mouth.

You don't have to be uber rich, here in VA your state income taxes exceed $10k on an income of roughly $190k (and about $150k in NY and CA). Though I guess with a tax reduction of $760 it is pretty likely that he doesn't make $150k annually.

 

[ludin]

You don't have to be uber rich, here in VA your state income taxes exceed $10k on an income of roughly $190k (and about $150k in NY and CA). Though I guess with a tax reduction of $760 it is pretty likely that he doesn't make $150k annually.

I was just in Richmond thing are expensive there.
In any event I guess that is a lot of money to me. I don't make anything near that lol.
Would be nice if I did.

 

[SheWolf]

Well, you just can't trust the NY Time to give honest answers. So they produced a simple interactive chart so you can see for yourself how badly you are being screwed by the Republicans! Easy- peasy!



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/17/upshot/tax-calculator.html

I am a millennial. My taxes will eventually go up because of the selfishness of older generations. I will be paying for this tax cut down the road.