• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Swimming with a great white shark

Xelor said:
Okay. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself...and lived. I'm happy to leave "shark talking" to you and others.

There are some things that, while one can attempt to do them, one really just doesn't need to do, even though doing them would be super cool and exhilarating. Swimming with and feeding great white sharks, for me, is one of those things.

Out of curiosity, were you diving with and feeding GWSs?
Click to expand...

No, I haven't done a great white dive. We were feeding black tipped reef sharks. As for sharks, they don't scare me nearly as much as jellyfish. There are some tiny ones that can mess you up and kill you. I have a few white spots on my arms from jellies that hit my arm and wrapped around my watch. They hurt. And, I once stepped on an urchin while putting my fins on for a night dive. Major pain. Lots of alcohol therapy with that.
 
Xelor said:
Well, it's an apex predator, so it may behave like other such creatures, other than humans, in that when it's fully sated, unless an animal poses a physical, procreation or territorial threat, it's simply not going to, at that moment, attack it or feed. Still, that's a lot of variables to know of regarding a big ass predatory fish that just happened to show up.

This isn't an ursine, feline or canine creature about which we have a fair bit of behavioral and biological comprehension and that have shown themselves to exhibit a measure of emotional comptempation. It's a fish. Fish don't think about much because they have, well, fish brains. (LOL) One can literally count the neurons in a fish brain. Nuff said.
Click to expand...

Just wondering, do you think that kind of video, featuring a wildlife biologist interacting with her subjects, might encourage ordinary people to do the same?
 
Grand Mal said:
Just wondering, do you think that kind of video, featuring a wildlife biologist interacting with her subjects, might encourage ordinary people to do the same?
Click to expand...

Yes, I think some folks who don't may think they do have the skills and knowledge of an ichthyologist, or think something in their experience set enables them to replicate the diver's deed and try something like swimming with GWSs or other large sharks.

I don't know that I'd say the video would "encourage" some folks to do that. Rather, I think it'd confirm to some folks that such a thing can be done and one can live to tell the tale of having done so. Thus "informed," some folks may infer that, notwithstanding their relative ignorance of ichthyology in general and that of the specific shark species, such as the GWS, with which they might swim, they too can swim with GWS.


You didn't ask whether I give a damn that someone or some several folks may act on such notions (or similar ones). For the record: I don't. As I've noted elsewhere on DP, I'm all about acknowledging one's free to do "whatever," so long as the actor is all about accepting the consequences of their action(s). I repeat what I've said before: I am a goal oriented solutioneer; thus, for instance, if one is of a mind to commit suicide and comes to me, what one'll get from me is implementation guidance to help one ensure that one's plan for doing so will succeed. I simply don't value another's life and the living of it more than does that person.
 
Xelor said:
Yes, I think some folks who don't may think they do have the skills and knowledge of an ichthyologist, or think something in their experience set enables them to replicate the diver's deed and try something like swimming with GWSs or other large sharks.

I don't know that I'd say the video would "encourage" some folks to do that. Rather, I think it'd confirm to some folks that such a thing can be done and one can live to tell the tale of having done so. Thus "informed," some folks may infer that, notwithstanding their relative ignorance of ichthyology in general and that of the specific shark species, such as the GWS, with which they might swim, they too can swim with GWS.


You didn't ask whether I give a damn that someone or some several folks may act on such notions (or similar ones). For the record: I don't. As I've noted elsewhere on DP, I'm all about acknowledging one's free to do "whatever," so long as the actor is all about accepting the consequences of their action(s). I repeat what I've said before: I am a goal oriented solutioneer; thus, for instance, if one is of a mind to commit suicide and comes to me, what one'll get from me is implementation guidance to help one ensure that one's plan for doing so will succeed. I simply don't value another's life and the living of it more than does that person.
Click to expand...

Ask yourself- why would someone who was studying a species in the wild broadcast video of herself interacting with the animals?
My guess? She was promoting herself. I've seen this before with the white black bears (spirit bears) and nature show presenters showcasing their proximity to the animals.
They ought not o do that. Not if they're legitimate researchers. If they're showmen, it's open season.
 
She's been doing this for a few years. Calls herself the "shark whisperer" and spreads propaganda suggesting that Great Whites are not as dangerous as they are portrayed.

Irresponsible.
 
beefheart said:
Yeah, but when you dive with sharks, its not that scary. They are very predictable, you can gauge their mental state. I did a shark feeding dive once in Australia, coolest thing was hearing their biting and tearing of the food. They didn't give a damn about all of us watching...LOL
Click to expand...

Shark feeding is not just dangerous, its irresponsible and puts divers at risk. One of the dumbest things to do when it comes to diving (I'm a diver too).
 
PoS said:
Shark feeding is not just dangerous, its irresponsible and puts divers at risk. One of the dumbest things to do when it comes to diving (I'm a diver too).
Click to expand...

It wasn't a problem, it was part of a weeklong live-aboard, the sharks were just reef sharks and we were all advanced divers.
 
Grand Mal said:
Ask yourself- why would someone who was studying a species in the wild broadcast video of herself interacting with the animals?
My guess? She was promoting herself. I've seen this before with the white black bears (spirit bears) and nature show presenters showcasing their proximity to the animals.
They ought not o do that. Not if they're legitimate researchers. If they're showmen, it's open season.
Click to expand...

Red:
Because she accomplished something that is very rare and/or learned something heretofore recondite. That is, after all, scientists'/researchers' raison d'etre.
 
Serenity said:
She's been doing this for a few years. Calls herself the "shark whisperer" and spreads propaganda suggesting that Great Whites are not as dangerous as they are portrayed.

Irresponsible.
Click to expand...

Well, it is, of course, entirely possible that GWSs aren't as dangerous "as they are portrayed" to be. That doesn't at all suggest they're not dangerous; it simply suggests they're, in some way, shape or form, differently dangerous than previously portrayed. To wit, her video lends evidence to refute the "feeding/killing machine" notion that GWSs are nonstop indiscriminate feeders that, upon seeing literally anything that's potentially edible, will summarily and opportunistically attack and eat it. On the other hand, her video does not refute the notion that GWSs can easily kill and consume a human.

The thing about GWS attacks upon what the beasts think is "dinner" is that if it completes the attack only to find out that what it just chomped isn't a tasty fish, seal or cetacean, when that thing is a human, the first bite has the ability to be fatal, regardless of whether the shark thinks "ew, yuck" and spits it out. Unlike that woman, however, I'm simply not willing to expose myself to the risk of mistaken identity by a great white shark. Other individuals who want to test her theories are free to do so.
 
PoS said:
Shark feeding is not just dangerous, its irresponsible and puts divers at risk. One of the dumbest things to do when it comes to diving (I'm a diver too).
Click to expand...

Are you referring to what one might call the "Pavlovian acclimation" effect that augurs to expose subsequent divers to greater risk than they may otherwise have faced had sharks not been accustomed to obtaining food from divers? Or are you referring to the immediate risk a diver faces as s/he feeds a shark? Perhaps both or some other risk?

The former risk is one that is not worth creating, whereas the latter seems, depending on the size of the shark, mitigatable.

beefheart said:
It wasn't a problem, it was part of a weeklong live-aboard, the sharks were just reef sharks and we were all advanced divers.
Click to expand...
How can you in good conscience and with sound reason say that?

To the extent the risk PoS had in mind is the former one of the two I noted, a "first recreational feeder of a shark," perhaps too the second, third, fourth, etc. may not have any idea that his/her actions helped condition the shark to think "divers are around, so if I show up, they'll give me food." That's all well and good in a controlled setting; it's not so "well and good" in an unusual circumstance whereby the shark, finding itself just as hungry as when recreational feeders are present, has, as a ready food source, only the diver who isn't there to feed it.
 
Last edited:
Xelor said:
Are you referring to what one might call the "Pavlovian acclimation" effect that augurs to expose subsequent divers to greater risk than they may otherwise have faced had sharks not been accustomed to obtaining food from divers? Or are you referring to the immediate risk a diver faces as s/he feeds a shark? Perhaps both or some other risk?

The former risk is one that is not worth creating, whereas the latter seems, depending on the size of the shark, mitigatable.
Click to expand...
Both. There have been cases in which people have been bitten while feeding these sharks, and a few have even died. The other problem is that this activity changes the behavior of sharks- they lose their natural inclination to avoid divers and will instead come towards them because they would associate humans with food.

People dont feed lion prides in Africa for obvious reasons, because these animals will start to encroach in human areas, so why would it be different for sharks?

The reason these tours happen is because of money. Stupid people pay big bucks for it, but it ought to be banned.
 
PoS said:
Both. There have been cases in which people have been bitten while feeding these sharks, and a few have even died. The other problem is that this activity changes the behavior of sharks- they lose their natural inclination to avoid divers and will instead come towards them because they would associate humans with food.

People dont feed lion prides in Africa for obvious reasons, because these animals will start to encroach in human areas, so why would it be different for sharks?

The reason these tours happen is because of money. Stupid people pay big bucks for it, but it ought to be banned.
Click to expand...

Though I haven't dived with sharks, my son and three friends booked a liveboard trip to the Cocos Island and did so. When they returned from the trip, they shared many a tale about it, but I didn't recall them mentioning feeding sharks, so I texted my son and godson to ask whether they did so. My son's response to my inquiry: "Hell, no! 2 risky. Don't feed the bears; don't feed the sharks. Different critter; same maxim applies." My godson replied, "China shop rules: look but don't touch."

I agree with you that feeding sharks may very well induce undesirable behavior among sharks. I don't think the diving-with-sharks tours should be terminated. By my reckoning of son and his friends' experience and feedback, a fantastic experience can be had without feeding sharks; thus requiring shark tour participants to desist from feeding sharks is something I'd support.

The problem, of course, is that implementing a "no feeding" policy is immensely difficult. It'd have to be managed and achieved almost entirely by a private consortium collaborating with many nations' governments and a massive advertising campaign to engender voluntary compliance among tour operators and to create awareness among prospective travelers so they'd know that shark feeding is dangerous and unlawful. After all, it's not as though it's a policy that's easily enforced. Cops don't patrol and monitor the ocean to make sure divers, dive operators don't include shark feeding among their underwater activities.
 
Xelor said:
Though I haven't dived with sharks, my son and three friends booked a liveboard trip to the Cocos Island and did so. When they returned from the trip, they shared many a tale about it, but I didn't recall them mentioning feeding sharks, so I texted my son and godson to ask whether they did so. My son's response to my inquiry: "Hell, no! 2 risky. Don't feed the bears; don't feed the sharks. Different critter; same maxim applies." My godson replied, "China shop rules: look but don't touch."

I agree with you that feeding sharks may very well induce undesirable behavior among sharks. I don't think the diving-with-sharks tours should be terminated. By my reckoning of son and his friends' experience and feedback, a fantastic experience can be had without feeding sharks; thus requiring shark tour participants to desist from feeding sharks is something I'd support.

The problem, of course, is that implementing a "no feeding" policy is immensely difficult. It'd have to be managed and achieved almost entirely by a private consortium collaborating with many nations' governments and a massive advertising campaign to engender voluntary compliance among tour operators and to create awareness among prospective travelers so they'd know that shark feeding is dangerous and unlawful. After all, it's not as though it's a policy that's easily enforced. Cops don't patrol and monitor the ocean to make sure divers, dive operators don't include shark feeding among their underwater activities.
Click to expand...

I wonder if your son and friends were simply told a policy lie rather than what actually happens.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/baiting--behavior-and-big-sharks/

According to underwater photographer and shark diving expert Brian Skerry, it would be impossible to see great white sharks without some kind of bait. Speaking of the Guadalupe area, where the recent incidents took place, he commented that when diving, it is easy to see sharks, but with a catch.

“There is no shortage of sharks—if you use chum, of course.”

“Dive tourism, which aims to please (meaning they want to make money) puts food in the water, which results in increased visitations from the sharks in that area. In some species, this leads to higher population numbers in the area.”

Burgess argued that baiting can negatively impact the shark population by teaching them learned behavior.

“Feeding of sharks has the effect that it can get rid of that natural concern between the shark and human, or, in some cases, teach them to equate the human with free food.”
Click to expand...

There really is no such thing as a profitable cage diving business and a no feed policy.

Which is why if you come to new zealand there is no cage diving as it has been made illegal.
 
soylentgreen said:
I wonder if your son and friends were simply told a policy lie rather than what actually happens.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/baiting--behavior-and-big-sharks/



There really is no such thing as a profitable cage diving business and a no feed policy.

Which is why if you come to new zealand there is no cage diving as it has been made illegal.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I mis-inferred the context of other member's, PoS, remarks. I thought they pertained to sharks and shark diving tours wherein divers (or dive group leaders) hand-feed sharks.

Caribbean-reef-shark-feeding-017876.jpg


DSzXWRmXUAEvRpN.jpg

(Web pic's not my son's...indeed, many of his photos of large numbers of sharks were taken from inside a submersible, though he's got some video of sharks, including a whale shark, swimming around/"with" him and his buds.)​

My kid and his pals weren't looking to see GWSs and they didn't happen upon any, nor did they "cage dive." They encountered a variety of "smallish" sharks and one very large shark:
  • Hammerheads -- They viewed these critters at night during a squid "plume."
  • Sort of reef shark -- I don't recall the specific species name; I just remember "tip," as in whitetip or blacktip, but I can't say which.
  • Whale sharks -- Not small, and big enough to be dangerous if irked.
  • Tiger sharks
  • Manta ray -- These thing are friggin' huge but, like whale sharks, they're pretty docile. One can swim safely with them.
  • Silly shark
  • Other species -- sharks and other critters, including a turtle, an octopus, and myriad fish -- that were there. (One of my godson's remarks that struck me was this: "It's amazing how many things are in the ocean. After all the summers I spent at the shore, I wouldn't have thought there are so many fish and other things in the water. Wherever there's a little plot of land under the water, there're tons of creatures there.")
Though plenty big enough and toothed adequately to be deadly to humans, they aren't species that generally aim to feed on humans.

That notwithstanding, I think what you have in mind is baiting/chumming as opposed to what I think PoS was talking about, hand feeding, which is what I asked about.

My own take on the matter of scuba diving with sharks is that swimming is fun, but humans are land animals, and the ocean is a dangerous place for people; thus oceans are best left to creatures designed to live there. A quick dip once in a while to cool off or mess about briefly is okay at certain times and places, but I think it best to as quickly get the hell back out of the water.

I will say that I think it cool when a dolphin pod opts "bow ride." I don't know why they do it, but it's always nifty as hell when they do. Maybe they're bragging, figuratively sticking their tongues out at us, if you will, letting us know they're faster and more agile than the boat?

DSPq-0GW4AIby2a.jpg



​

Red:
I'm not sure they were told anything about what be or be not policy. He just said they didn't feed the fish. I took that to mean they didn't hand-feed them.
 
beefheart said:
I've dove with lots of mellow sharks, white tips, black tips, nurse sharks and leopard sharks. Still haven't seen a hammerhead on my dives. I've seen a tiger shark from the dive boat, they are nasty.
Click to expand...

I've seen most of those too. I learned to dive in the Red Sea at Sharm El Sheikh when we lived in Egypt. Nothing like starting at the top. In Exmouth Australia we swam with whale sharks.
 
stevecanuck said:
I've seen most of those too. I learned to dive in the Red Sea at Sharm El Sheikh when we lived in Egypt. Nothing like starting at the top. In Exmouth Australia we swam with whale sharks.
Click to expand...

I dove Hurghada....nice water..
 
Xelor said:
Perhaps I mis-inferred the context of other member's, PoS, remarks. I thought they pertained to sharks and shark diving tours wherein divers (or dive group leaders) hand-feed sharks.
:
I'm not sure they were told anything about what be or be not policy. He just said they didn't feed the fish. I took that to mean they didn't hand-feed them.
Click to expand...

Sharks by their nature are solitary creatures. Apex predators like a shark do not hunt in packs. And on occasion when they do gather no one swims with them

The only way to ensure a shark will appear is to bait them. And do it over a period of time so that the shark begins to associate food with humans. Never a good idea. The business should be banned.
 
Just shocked at how many people here are not seeing the obvious photo shop in that video...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Just shocked at how many people here are not seeing the obvious photo shop in that video...
Click to expand...

CNN publishing photoshopped photos as real? Seems like that would be a story in and of itself, doesn’t it?
 
Skeptic Bob said:
CNN publishing photoshopped photos as real? Seems like that would be a story in and of itself, doesn’t it?
Click to expand...

The shots are taken from the video... which looks seriously fake...
 
Bodhisattva said:
The shots are taken from the video... which looks seriously fake...
Click to expand...

You should email CNN and tell them that you can Photoshop a better pic than that...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom