Surge in gun deaths in states relaxing their gun laws.

[jaeger19]

There are 400 BILLION motor vehicle uses yearly in the USA.

So

Nonsense and even you know that is not true.m

Not nonsense at all. We have more guns than people and do you realize how many times a firearm is fired at say just one shooting event. ??
I shot roughly 20000 rounds just in sporting clays last year. And each and every one of those rounds after I fired them ? Were outside my control.

Explain why even you would not give a loaded firearm to a person with suicidal intent.

The same reason I wouldn’t hand them a knife, the keys to my car , or decide to take them on a hike to deadman’s cliff. AND I’d get them help for their mental issues.
Because someone in crisis and having suicidal intent is a heck of a lot different than someone with no suicidal or violent intent.
Anti gunners gotta lie though. Right. ?
You gotta lie and act like me wanting people with suicidal ideation to get mental health rather than waste resources taking firearms from random people without suicide ideation is tantamount to wanting to put a loaded firearm into the hands of a suicidal person .
Frick.
Why stop with your lies there? Want not ask ? “Why wouldn’t you put that loaded gun into their mouths and their finger on the trigger???”””

For extra credit explain why you would not give a loaded firearm to a young child.

I would and have . My sons started shooting firearms at 4. That early safety training is why they are so am safe with firearms .

(Don't even try to undermine the questions with some absurd exceptions.)

Gun banners gotta lie right???

 

[Spock]

So

Not nonsense at all. We have more guns than people and do you realize how many times a firearm is fired at say just one shooting event. ??
I shot roughly 20000 rounds just in sporting clays last year. And each and every one of those rounds after I fired them ? Were outside my control.

What is your point about a meaningless personal anecdote?
At least you are beginning to acknowledge that firearms are inherently dangerous.

The same reason I wouldn’t hand them a knife, thcompe keys to my car , or decide to take them on a hike to deadman’s cliff. AND I’d get them help for their mental issues.

Why lie about the lethal aspects of a firearm?

Because someone in crisis and having suicidal intent is a heck of a lot different than someone with no suicidal or violent intent.
Anti gunners gotta lie though. Right. ?
You gotta lie and act like me wanting people with suicidal ideation to get mental health rather than waste resources taking firearms from random people without suicide ideation is tantamount to wanting to put a loaded firearm into the hands of a suicidal person .

I think it is disingenuous to excuse firearm violence with irrelevant complaints about the mental health system in America. Even with perfect mental health care the availability of firearms will be a risk factor that increases self-harm.

Frick.
Why stop with your lies there? Want not ask ? “Why wouldn’t you put that loaded gun into their mouths and their finger on the trigger???”””

I would and have . My sons started shooting firearms at 4. That early safety training is why they are so am safe with firearms .

Gun banners gotta lie right???

You would give a child a loaded weapon? That is the challenge, not your narrowly scripted situation.
It is a generic question about children and firearms. Would you give any child a loaded functional firearm without your immediate proximate presence? Is that clear enough for you?
Stop with the misrepresentation and tortured answers.

 

[Spock]

That's a gross mischaracterization. You've typed a lot of crap...but not directly addressed post 50. Why the need to lie?

Exact description of your misrepresentation and dissembling.
You are not interested in discussion; you are interested in avoiding, or distorting, the difficult topics and hiding behind your pro-gun bigotry.

 

[RF667799]

Exact description of your misrepresentation and dissembling.
You are not interested in discussion; you are interested in avoiding, or distorting, the difficult topics and hiding behind your pro-gun bigotry.

Explain the bigotry in your accusation. I think your own bigotry has been pointed out so many times, your objection is nothing more than IKYABWAI.

 

[jaeger19]

What is your point about a meaningless personal anecdote?
At least you are beginning to acknowledge that firearms are inherently dangerous.

You know why. I gave an example of just one shooter shooting tens of thousands of rounds . And just one sport. So it’s simply shows that firearms use is far beyond vehicle use and the number of firearms out there is more than the number of people.

Why lie about the lethal aspects of a firearm?

Yes. Why do you lie. ???

I think it is disingenuous to excuse firearm violence with irrelevant complaints about the mental health system in America.

I think it’s the height of cruelty and callousness to yelp about “ firearm violence “ while including suicide into that “ violent “ category.
( gun banners gotta lie right)
Then only caring about whether someone commits suicide with a firearm because it helps their gun control argument.

Even with perfect mental health care the availability of firearms will be a risk factor that increases self-harm.

Only when that person has suicide ideation.
And if they do. Cars, ropes, alcohol, high places etc are all risk factor as well.

You would give a child a loaded weapon?

I have. Yes.

That is the challenge, not your narrowly scripted situation.

No this is your gun banner lame attempt at a set up. Because you gave really no idea of firearm owners, just your ignorant bias.

It is a generic question about children and firearms. Would you give any child a loaded functional firearm without your immediate proximate presence?

Yes. Depending on the age and experience of the child.
How do you think children under 16 go hunting ???( at 16 you can hunt unsupervised at all in most states) many states the age to hunt alone is 12 or 14.
And what counts as supervised in most states.?
To be within visual and voice range.

Is that clear enough for you?
Stop with the misrepresentation and tortured answers.

No stop with your bs set ups as if you know anything.
See above.

 

[Spock]

You know why. I gave an example of just one shooter shooting tens of thousands of rounds . And just one sport. So it’s simply shows that firearms use is far beyond vehicle use and the number of firearms out there is more than the number of people.

Once again. Absurd argument. Your experience (assuming it is accurate) is irrelevant.
If you have data on firearm utilization (ideally against humans) provide that and stop your silliness that must be humiliating for you.

Yes. Why do you lie. ???

I think it’s the height of cruelty and callousness to yelp about “ firearm violence “ while including suicide into that “ violent “ category.
( gun banners gotta lie right)
Then only caring about whether someone commits suicide with a firearm because it helps their gun control argument.

Nope. Wrong. Nearly universally firearm control advocates are concerned about ALL situations of firearm violence.

Only when that person has suicide ideation.
And if they do. Cars, ropes, alcohol, high places etc are all risk factor as well.


I have. Yes.

No this is your gun banner lame attempt at a set up. Because you gave really no idea of firearm owners, just your ignorant bias.

Yes. Depending on the age and experience of the child.
How do you think children under 16 go hunting ???( at 16 you can hunt unsupervised at all in most states) many states the age to hunt alone is 12 or 14.
And what counts as supervised in most states.?
To be within visual and voice range.

Evasion. Realistically, even you would not give ANY child a loaded firearm because firearms are inherently dangerous and pose a grave risk to life.

No stop with your bs set ups as if you know anything.
See above.

Clearly I know more about this subject than you do.
How many gunshot wounds have your treated in your life?

 

[rahl]

Firearms are a risk factor for death and injury in America-- proven.

No they aren’t.

Firearms, because they are a risk factor, result in more successful suicide attempts.

Hilariously false.

Firearms are the favored method of homicide in America.

Irrelevant. They have nothing correlation to homicide rates.

Firearms access is easy in America due to prevalence of private firearms and lack regulation.

Show the firearm prevalence by state, city and then household. You keep running from this. And it’s hilarious.

 

[Lursa]

Exact description of your misrepresentation and dissembling.
You are not interested in discussion; you are interested in avoiding, or distorting, the difficult topics and hiding behind your pro-gun bigotry.

Please provide the post number where you did so. Then I'll post mine and yours together and we'll see. Put up or ...?

And "You think" wrong, as usual Your word salad stinks of desperation.

 

[rahl]

Nope. Wrong. Nearly universally firearm control advocates are concerned about ALL situations of firearm violence.

Firearms can’t commit any acts. There is no such thing as firearm violence. The baby talk just makes you look silly.

 

[bythoughts]

Maybe I missed where someone said this in the middle, but whenever anti-gun people say "excess deaths", they mostly mean suicides. Understandably enough, most folks prefer the certainty of a shotgun blast to the brain over the various hesitations and doubts involved in a plunge from a fifth-story rooftop. I put this to the AI and it said, surprisingly, only 3,399 of the 6000 deaths were suicides, and there actually were 2000 homicides over the 12 years.

Nonetheless, just as with suicides, homicides involve a choice of methods. Someone who might have gone for a gun could instead use a lesser weapon - who knows, maybe the victim would live. On the other hand, maybe they would break the gas main in the basement of the victim's apartment building and blow up 100 people. Guns have some advantages for society in terms of aiming at one thing at a time. So I am not convinced that 2000 homicides means 2000 deaths that wouldn't have happened without the gun.

Bear in mind that to me, the overriding priority is that I think gun laws are preventing the worst sort of spiral into fascism. I can easily picture the Proud Boy sort of people, high on a presidential pardon, saddling up to go out and shoot any enemies of the Right they see, just like the old Stuermabteilung. But that can't happen in the U.S. like it did in Germany, because some little gay guy is going to pull out a big nasty gun and put a quick end to a reign of terror. We can't see what we don't see. We need to open our imagination to the point of understanding what our constitution is holding at bay, before we open the gates to the devil we don't know.

 

[mrjurrs]

Who knew children were purchasing and carrying guns as a result of laws making that easier?

Reading comprehension issues?

 

[mrjurrs]

Firearms can’t commit any acts. There is no such thing as firearm violence. The baby talk just makes you look silly.

And your denial of reality makes you look ridiculous.

 

[CLAX1911]

Reading comprehension issues?

No BS detectors

 

[CLAX1911]

And your denial of reality makes you look ridiculous.

Denial of firearms not being able to act on their own? You'll have to prove that that's reality.

What you see how you are violence that's baby talk.

 

[mrjurrs]

Denial of firearms not being able to act on their own? You'll have to prove that that's reality.

What you see how you are violence that's baby talk.

When an arsonist lights a fire is it known as fire violence? How about knifing? Is that knife violence?

The baby is the one hurt by truthful words. Gun violence is real...no matter how much the gun nuts deny it.

 

[CLAX1911]

When an arsonist lights a fire is it known as fire violence?

I have never heard that phrase until you just uttered it normally that's called arson

How about knifing? Is that knife violence?

So it's all about blaming the object because we can't hold people responsible for their actions.

The baby is the one hurt by truthful words.

I'll let you know when I hear some truth.

Gun violence is real

Fake

...no matter how much the gun nuts deny it.

Everyone denies fake trash

 

[rahl]

And your denial of reality makes you look ridiculous.

Because I’m pointing out hilarious grammatical ignorance?

 

[rahl]

When an arsonist lights a fire is it known as fire violence? How about knifing? Is that knife violence?

The baby is the one hurt by truthful words. Gun violence is real...no matter how much the gun nuts deny it.

There is no such thing as gun violence. Guns are inanimate objects incapable of committing any act.

 

[Spock]

Maybe I missed where someone said this in the middle, but whenever anti-gun people say "excess deaths", they mostly mean suicides. Understandably enough, most folks prefer the certainty of a shotgun blast to the brain over the various hesitations and doubts involved in a plunge from a fifth-story rooftop. I put this to the AI and it said, surprisingly, only 3,399 of the 6000 deaths were suicides, and there actually were 2000 homicides over the 12 years.

Nonetheless, just as with suicides, homicides involve a choice of methods. Someone who might have gone for a gun could instead use a lesser weapon - who knows, maybe the victim would live. On the other hand, maybe they would break the gas main in the basement of the victim's apartment building and blow up 100 people. Guns have some advantages for society in terms of aiming at one thing at a time. So I am not convinced that 2000 homicides means 2000 deaths that wouldn't have happened without the gun.

That is what I call the "all or none" fallacy. Reducing lethal means can only REDUCE the number of homicides. I suspect many homicides are random gang shooting for territory or are firearm use merely to disable or stop some perceived resistance during a property crime rather than intentional and well-planned efforts to end a life.

Bear in mind that to me, the overriding priority is that I think gun laws are preventing the worst sort of spiral into fascism. I can easily picture the Proud Boy sort of people, high on a presidential pardon, saddling up to go out and shoot any enemies of the Right they see, just like the old Stuermabteilung. But that can't happen in the U.S. like it did in Germany, because some little gay guy is going to pull out a big nasty gun and put a quick end to a reign of terror. We can't see what we don't see. We need to open our imagination to the point of understanding what our constitution is holding at bay, before we open the gates to the devil we don't know.

Nonsense. Civilian firearms promote unnecessary loss of life in confrontations. It is the perfect financial scheme-- sell firearms widely with few controls or regulations for all sorts of sporting purposes and, when they get diverted to criminal use, sell more firearms for self-defense against the previously sold firearms.

 

[jaeger19]

Once again. Absurd argument. Your experience (assuming it is accurate) is irrelevant.

Of course it’s not irrelevant. It explains the billions of rounds fired each year by gun owners.

If you have data on firearm utilization (ideally against humans) provide that and stop your silliness that must be humiliating for you.

If you have data proving that firearms are not fired more than vehicles are driven we’d all love to see it.
Otherwise stop embarrassing yourself.

Nope. Wrong. Nearly universally firearm control advocates are concerned about ALL situations of firearm violence.

Exactly. Only firearms violence.
It’s the height of callousness that your answer to suicide is NOT prevention through mental health
But only to remove firearms from people who are not suicidal in the name of reducing suicides.

Evasion. Realistically, even you would not give ANY child a loaded firearm because firearms are inherently dangerous and pose a grave risk to life.

wtf. ? I have given firearms to lots of children during competitions and hunts .

Clearly I know more about this subject than you do.

Clearly you do not.

How many gunshot wounds have your treated in your life.

Civilian or the result of war/combat?

 

[Spock]

Of course it’s not irrelevant. It explains the billions of rounds fired each year by gun owners.

By your reasoning, car usage should be gallons per year?

If you have data proving that firearms are not fired more than vehicles are driven we’d all love to see it.
Otherwise stop embarrassing yourself.

You assert that they are, so the burden is on you. I made a reasonable estimate.

Exactly. Only firearms violence.
It’s the height of callousness that your answer to suicide is NOT prevention through mental health

No reasonable human would believe that any single intervention will PREVENT self-harm.
No reasonable human would argue that making firearms available to those inclined to self-harm is reasonable.
No reasonable human would believe that firearms are not a RISK FACTOR for firearm violence.

But only to remove firearms from people who are not suicidal in the name of reducing suicides.

Once, again, you are having trouble following the discussion.

wtf. ? I have given firearms to lots of children during competitions and hunts .

Evasive and irrelevant.
However, you can be on record in favor of allowing any children of any age free access to loaded firearms since you are unable to address that issue.

 

[Spock]

Civilian or the result of war/combat?

Evasion.

 

[bythoughts]

No reasonable human would argue that making firearms available to those inclined to self-harm is reasonable.

This is a trick. Yes, we should argue that exact point.

Now to be sure, if we know someone is crazy, or meets some more refined legal/medical criterion for being not in his right mind, we're not going to argue that it's OK to knowingly hand him a gun. But this is a very, very narrow thing, and your sentence is a very, very broad thing!

Yes, we will support the right of a gunsmith or retail outlet to sell guns all day, even though we know some of the people who walk in will turn out, in hindsight, to have been inclined to self-harm.

Yes, we will support the right of a person who is struggling with mental illness to go out and buy things that could well make a firearm available to him, such as pipe or a 3D printer.

Yes, we will support the right of a hunter on his private property, who is not expecting children to visit, to leave his gun out on the bench and loaded while he works on making it accurate, even if he steps away to do something else. He should not be to blame for the act of thieves or opportunistic suicides.

In short, anything other than a conspiratorial action meant to facilitate a suicide death is not our concern.

Why not? Well, to put it bluntly, if someone doesn't value his own life, how much value should we put on it ourselves? Even if we were willing to give up the right to hunt in traditional ways, and the right to have a personal defense against potential home invaders who might torture, rape, and/or kill ... are we willing to give up the right of the people to resist attack by paramilitary organizations bent on abolishing democratic government? In the name of a life that won't stand up for itself?

I will admit, this attitude goes further than guns. I don't think it is reasonable for scenic overlooks to be blocked off with fences or denied to visitors simply because someone might jump. We have a responsibility to make life worth living - to let people live with the basic freedoms that do give them enough rope, literally speaking, to hang themselves.

 

[Spock]

This is a trick. Yes, we should argue that exact point.

Now to be sure, if we know someone is crazy, or meets some more refined legal/medical criterion for being not in his right mind, we're not going to argue that it's OK to knowingly hand him a gun. But this is a very, very narrow thing, and your sentence is a very, very broad thing!

No. It is a very specific situation. Not broad at all.

Yes, we will support the right of a gunsmith or retail outlet to sell guns all day, even though we know some of the people who walk in will turn out, in hindsight, to have been inclined to self-harm.

Knowingly selling to someone with self-harm intent should be equivalent to bars serving alcohol to drunk patrons.

Yes, we will support the right of a person who is struggling with mental illness to go out and buy things that could well make a firearm available to him, such as pipe or a 3D printer.

Don't invoke rare hypothetical scenarios. It looks bad on you.

Yes, we will support the right of a hunter on his private property, who is not expecting children to visit, to leave his gun out on the bench and loaded while he works on making it accurate, even if he steps away to do something else. He should not be to blame for the act of thieves or opportunistic suicides.

@jaeger19 has been promoting firearms for children and trying to dodge the issue of inherent danger and risk associated with children and firearms.

As regards your point, I would argue that a firearm is an attractive nuisance and, just like a child drowning in a swimming pool on private property, liability should apply to any situation where a firearm is left loaded and unsecured in a fashion that a child could access it.

In short, anything other than a conspiratorial action meant to facilitate a suicide death is not our concern.

Why not? Well, to put it bluntly, if someone doesn't value his own life, how much value should we put on it ourselves? Even if we were willing to give up the right to hunt in traditional ways, and the right to have a personal defense against potential home invaders who might torture, rape, and/or kill ... are we willing to give up the right of the people to resist attack by paramilitary organizations bent on abolishing democratic government? In the name of a life that won't stand up for itself?

Too much pro-gun propaganda to deal with thoroughly in response. Hyperbole is not your friend. Firearms have never been a successful method for "resisting tyranny" since the founding of the republic. Every person to takes up arms as a rebel argues that they are right and promoting liberty over tyranny. EVERY rebellion has been put down.

I will admit, this attitude goes further than guns. I don't think it is reasonable for scenic overlooks to be blocked off with fences or denied to visitors simply because someone might jump. We have a responsibility to make life worth living - to let people live with the basic freedoms that do give them enough rope, literally speaking, to hang themselves.

Presumably you feel that there is a right to be killed by others expressing a 2A freedom as well.

 

[RF667799]

Reading comprehension issues?

Can't think of anything other than an ad hom attack issues?