Supreme Court turns away challenge to California ban on 'gay conversion' therapy

[iguanaman]

Just seems so weird to me, like something that doesn't really exist on any real scale. It's like saying snake handlers are a big thing. Some small % of a % do some electroshock stuff. I can see most of the "conversion therapy" being more about trying to use prayer and counseling as the method primarily used. I'll even say that a lot of the counseling probably is toxic and coercive/destructive/negative in nature.

I remember finding a website for a church years ago (which I could remember what it was) that was for LGBTQ and they had basically two groups of thought in the church members. One group said that the reading of the Bible is wrong and did make a pretty good case for it. The other group said that this was their struggle (everyone has their own struggles) to deal with and that their option was to basically be celibate.

I've had my own hair-brained theory that Paul was gay and it puts an interesting perspective on some of his writings.

Anyways, I don't think the electroshock thing really is a thing, aside from some obscure something you find off in the corners. All that stuff definitely falls under the abuse category but teaching the doctrines of your faith and how to move forward keeping those things in mind isn't abuse, imo.

You may not think it is abusive to tell a child that he will burn in hell because of his "feelings" but many do. What is he supposed to do when those "feelings" are out of his control? Try to imagine someone telling you they your feelings for women are a sin and the only way you can avoid hell is to be attracted to men....and you are 14 years old.

 

[Fishking]

I am pretty such that for the most part, it has fallen out of favor. However, the statistics still show that children forced to go through conversion therapy have a higher suicide rate. Although electroshock is out of favor, other aversion techniques are supposed to be still being used, to the detriment of the people forced into it.

There is enough documented harm being done that I have to approve of the ban of conversion therapy on minors.

All that other stuff you talked about, I agree. I disagree that parents cannot find a way to move forward with their kids in a manner that fits with their particular beliefs. Once you get to banning on that level you're going way off track and violating the 1st Amendment in a grand way.

 

[CLAX1911]

I don't disagree. It's not therapy in the medical sense.

I would say it isn't therapy in the strictest sense in that it isn't therapeutic. It's Faith healing.

 

[RAMOSS]

All that other stuff you talked about, I agree. I disagree that parents cannot find a way to move forward with their kids in a manner that fits with their particular beliefs. Once you get to banning on that level you're going way off track and violating the 1st Amendment in a grand way.

Well, I am specifically discussing conversion therapy.. be it 'pray the gay' away camps, or the pseudo science therapists. There is documented harm to anybody using that, and minors are defenseless against the abuse. Now, if someone is 18, they sure can make up their own mind.

 

[Fishking]

You may not think it is abusive to tell a child that he will burn in hell because of his "feelings" but many do. What is he supposed to do when those "feelings" are out of his control. Try to imagine someone telling you they your feelings for women are a sin and the only way you can avoid hell is to be attracted to men....and you are 14 years old.

Eh...you're starting to veer of what is your lane to be involved in there. There are kids who have worse things said to them by secular parents, like wishing they had had an abortion. The state doesn't have much of a place getting too involved in how children are raise. Children are not wards of the state and the government sticking it's fingers in that aspect of our lives is over the line when they start limiting words.

 

[CLAX1911]

Eh...you're starting to veer of what is your lane to be involved in there. There are kids who have worse things said to them by secular parents, like wishing they had had an abortion. The state doesn't have much of a place getting too involved in how children are raise. Children are not wards of the state and the government sticking it's fingers in that aspect of our lives is over the line when they start limiting words.

I agree government shouldn't get involved. What I can say is that it's despicable to teach your children that.

I can shame and ridicule people who do this. That is my First Amendment right.

 

[Fishking]

I agree government shouldn't get involved. What I can say is that it's despicable to teach your children that.

I can shame and ridicule people who do this. That is my First Amendment right.

Yup...and it's definitely the wrong thing to do, imo, do be saying to your kid they are going to Hell for being gay.

 

[chromium]

Depends on the group.. but one common method is aversion therapy, where they use electroshock and homoerotic images to try to associate the electric shock with homosexual attraction.

In some of the 'pray the gay' away camps, (This actually happened to someone I know), they also 'baptized' folks by dunking them in water, to the point of almost drowning. The one person I know that went through that was in a camp with 12 other people.. and when I knew her it was about 15 years later, and a good 7 of the 13 people had died already, from either over doses from drugs or suicide.

Mind you, from what I gather she had a more extreme experience than most, but the suicide rate among people who went through it was rather high, even the less extreme ones.

because to the religious right 'better dead than gay'

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I see this claim being thrown out but it sounds like an urban legend to me. Is there established documentation for this or is this like a "one dude did this thing and now we say that's what it is"?

Not an urban legend at all. A psychiatrist at a psychiatric facility where I worked was using aversion therapy. He was fired for it.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

All that other stuff you talked about, I agree. I disagree that parents cannot find a way to move forward with their kids in a manner that fits with their particular beliefs. Once you get to banning on that level you're going way off track and violating the 1st Amendment in a grand way.

My state is the other state in the US where conversion therapy is banned in respect towards minors. It has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. Parents are free to tell their children whatever they want. But what they cannot do is force their minor child into a type of "treatment" that has been proven to be ineffective and dangerous.

 

[Hymie_VunderBud]

I'm curious.... what if people wanted "fixing"?

Perhaps try seeing a shrink, in order to understand the reason the person feels the need to be fixed?

 

[CLAX1911]

Yup...and it's definitely the wrong thing to do, imo, do be saying to your kid they are going to Hell for being gay.

But I can't call it emotional abuse?

 

[OlNate]

All that other stuff you talked about, I agree. I disagree that parents cannot find a way to move forward with their kids in a manner that fits with their particular beliefs. Once you get to banning on that level you're going way off track and violating the 1st Amendment in a grand way.

I've been reading your posts, trying to figure out where you're coming from, and I'm glad I didn't default to outrage, because I think I understand. It's important to protect religious freedoms, which I'm assuming is your primary concern here, but there is a line. The church might believe that locking up a kid in a closet with rats is the Lord's ordained method of cleansing them from excessive fantasizing about ... I dunno ... the tooth fairy, but to the rest of society that's child abuse.

I know that's an extreme and inflammatory example, but in my mind telling a person, especially a child, that who they naturally are is "less than" and "wicked" and requires divine intervention to "fix" is a psychological trauma, and the right of the victim to be protected, regardless of what their parents "want" or "believe" supersedes the religious freedom issue, and protecting those children would / should be the response regardless of whether the driver behind the abuse was religious or not. Add in the shock therapy and other forms of physical "correction", and the abuse charge becomes a no brainer.

Ultimately, this practice does not belong in a civilized society, in the same way that there is no place in civilized society for genital mutilation. Gay people coming from families that would even consider this therapy already have enough on their plate.

 

[celticwar17]

Then they are not really gay and don't need "therapy" either except maybe a psychiatrist to hep them understand why they pretended to be gay.

Huh?
Let's say, I don't want to be white and go to Asian conversion therapy...am I pretending to be white? And I'm actually Asian?

 

[TheGoverness]

But I can't call it emotional abuse?

It's definitely emotional abuse.

 

[CLAX1911]

Huh?
Let's say, I don't want to be white and go to Asian conversion therapy...am I pretending to be white? And I'm actually Asian?

Well, iguanaman is arguing from the standpoint that sexual orientation is immutable. If your gay is kind of like being Asian. No amount of therapy will ever help you be another sexual orientation just like no amount of therapy will ever make an Asian person Caucasian.

I think if you want to have an intelligible conversation you have to first understand his position.

If you're position is that sexual orientation is changeable, and you can't accept arguments that it isn't, you should really start a thread about whether or not it is instead of derailing this one.

If you can accept even hypothetically that sexual orientation is not changeable than you can have intelligent conversation.

Just FYI, that is certainly a two way street. Not being able to accept the hypothetical that sexual orientation is not changeable Henders any chance at intelligent conversation.

Which is why I suggest forming a there's on that topic and discussing it there.

 

[CLAX1911]

I'm curious.... what if people wanted "fixing"?

Perhaps try seeing a shrink, in order to understand the reason the person feels the need to be fixed?

This poster brings up an interesting point. Prove that the desire to have a different sexual orientation isn't a mental disorder. As far as I can see it meets all the parameters for being a mental disorder. And currently a person suffering from the desire to change their sexual orientation is disabled. It is unethical to disable them further is it not? And if you are using a "treatment" that for a vast majority of its "patients" has further damaged people. You should be locked up. Just like if you prescribed laetril to treat cancer.

I'm not opposed to developing theories and even treatments that convert a person from homosexual to heterosexual, but it must first do no harm.

 

[celticwar17]

Well, iguanaman is arguing from the standpoint that sexual orientation is immutable. If your gay is kind of like being Asian. No amount of therapy will ever help you be another sexual orientation just like no amount of therapy will ever make an Asian person Caucasian.

I think if you want to have an intelligible conversation you have to first understand his position.

If you're position is that sexual orientation is changeable, and you can't accept arguments that it isn't, you should really start a thread about whether or not it is instead of derailing this one.

If you can accept even hypothetically that sexual orientation is not changeable than you can have intelligent conversation.

Just FYI, that is certainly a two way street. Not being able to accept the hypothetical that sexual orientation is not changeable Henders any chance at intelligent conversation.

Which is why I suggest forming a there's on that topic and discussing it there.

I have no position xD I don't think gay is changeable, at least in most circumstances, but that doesn't discount there are people who don't want to be gay. And if people think that they can therapy their gay away... all power to them...

 

[Nilly]

I have no position xD I don't think gay is changeable, at least in most circumstances, but that doesn't discount there are people who don't want to be gay. And if people think that they can therapy their gay away... all power to them...

Well the main reason they wouldn't want to be gay is because of the stigma associated with it in society.

So let's work on tackling homophobic stigma, rather than creating an environment where gay people feel forced to turn to crappy procedures to achieve the impossible.

 

[Nilly]

In these times of doom and gloom, where everyone overblows how crappy everything has gotten, this is one of the wins that reminds me that we are getting better as a society.

GJ supreme court

 

[celticwar17]

Well the main reason they wouldn't want to be gay is because of the stigma associated with it in society.

So let's work on tackling homophobic stigma, rather than creating an environment where gay people feel forced to turn to crappy procedures to achieve the impossible.

That's cool and all... but you shouldn't tell people what to do or what they want... it's fine to suggest... and I agree with you. But if they want gay therapy, they should be allowed to get it.

 

[Nilly]

That's cool and all... but you shouldn't tell people what to do or what they want... it's fine to suggest... and I agree with you. But if they want gay therapy, they should be allowed to get it.

And as adults they can.

By the way, what do you think about the fact that very few straight people seek out gay conversion therapy to turn gay?

Obviously, if a straight person were to want to turn gay they can shock themselves as much as they want in order to try to do that. But by and large, straight people don't.

It's not as if gay people have a biological urge to be straight any more than straight people have an urge to be gay - it's all social. So at the same time, let's acknowledge that the issue is mainly down to society, and not the gay individual.

 

[Carjosse]

That's cool and all... but you shouldn't tell people what to do or what they want... it's fine to suggest... and I agree with you. But if they want gay therapy, they should be allowed to get it.

But at the same time these organizations cannot claim it is psychological therapy and that it works. They must clearly state it is not actual psychological therapy, no one involved has anything to do a real psychologist, and there is no evidence that it works.

 

[RAMOSS]

But at the same time these organizations cannot claim it is psychological therapy and that it works. They must clearly state it is not actual psychological therapy, no one involved has anything to do a real psychologist, and there is no evidence that it works.

You mean, be truthful? Oh my, what a unique idea.

 

[celticwar17]

And as adults they can.

By the way, what do you think about the fact that very few straight people seek out gay conversion therapy to turn gay?

Obviously, if a straight person were to want to turn gay they can shock themselves as much as they want in order to try to do that. But by and large, straight people don't.

It's not as if gay people have a biological urge to be straight any more than straight people have an urge to be gay - it's all social. So at the same time, let's acknowledge that the issue is mainly down to society, and not the gay individual.

Yes... I have been informed many times in this thread that it only covers 18 and under..

There are reasons why someone would not want to be gay aside from social stigma. And of course, these things could be completely irrelevant to a individual gay person, but I have heard from friends these things do bother homosexual people aside from the stigma.

1. You can't reproduce with the person you love.
2. Your pool of romantic partners is significantly smaller, and those even within those pools have often paradoxical expectations of what is a desirable mate. For example, feminine males often want masculine gay mates, and masculine gay males often want masculine gay mates...leaving a smaller pool for the feminine male homosexual type.
3. You do not get to have a nuclear relationship that biology has engineered for us to be in tune with, and that bothers some gay people
4. You're a minority in representation in culture, meaning you will have less media/culture/capital that is targeted to you as an audience(and that is something that would never change) simply because your population doesn't have as much purchasing power. Doesn't mean you won't have any... but you will still always be a subculture.
5. You sometimes don't have the biology you identify with
etc. etc. etc.

There are many reasons outside of just social stigma.