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Supreme Court hands narrow win to baker over gay couple dispute

1.) Didn't say that at all, i simply stopped reading because it had nothing to do with my post
2.) i do? what "beliefs" have i presented that you speak of? I simply pointed out some facts earlier. please list these "beliefs" you are talkign about.
3.) based on post history and your posts proven dishonesty/biased i doubt that LMAO but i dont really have much of an "opinion" on this case.

The facts are the state was found not to conduct itself properly. I dont know all the ins and outs about how they conducted themselves so i dont have an opinion on that. Anyway SCOTUS corrected them and thier conduct. I have ZERO problem with them doing that, thats thier job. Other than that the fact remains illegal discrimination in Colorado is still illegal. Nothing has changed really :shrug:

Are there some other facts you were curious about?

You have contended that the Colorado commission's ruling against the baker was the correct decision, and that the baker engaged in discrimination based on sexual orientation. That being the case, why do you suppose that same commission ruled differently when a baker refused a Christians request to create a cake for a religious event?

You have stated firmly that the refusal to bake a cake for a same sex wedding constituted discrimination based on sexual orientation, so naturally you must also believe that the refusal to bake a cake for a Christian event constitutes religious based discrimination... Assuming of course politics plays no part in the opinions you've stated on this issue.

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1.) You have contended that the Colorado commission's ruling against the baker was the correct decision, and that the baker engaged in discrimination based on sexual orientation.
2.) That being the case, why do you suppose that same commission ruled differently when a baker refused a Christians request to create a cake for a religious event?
3.) You have stated firmly that the refusal to bake a cake for a same sex wedding constituted discrimination based on sexual orientation
4.) so naturally you must also believe that the refusal to bake a cake for a Christian event constitutes religious based discrimination...
5.) Assuming of course politics plays no part in the opinions you've stated on this issue.

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1.) i dont contend that, thats what happened proven by law but thier conduct/execution null and voided it.
2.) you'll have to read what the commission says about it. dont know if im familiar with that case, why did they rule otherwise. I would guess its your basic description thats inaccurate of what actually happened but youll have to post more information and read to see why the commission made thier ruling, icant wait to read it. im not part of the commission lmao
3.) yes ive pointed out the fact whats ILLEGAL discrimination as the law outlines in jurisdictions that have extended AP/AD laws to sexual orientation.
4.) based on the info you provided NO, that would be retarded. why would i ever have that basic belief? there has to be discrimination first. There most certainly could be discrimination against me as a christian and against my Christianity but your statment of "refusal to bake a cake for A Christian event" alone isnt enough without more info.... why was there a refusal you dont even say. only a moron would just guess thats discrimination.
5.) once again i havent given you any of my opinions so any assumptions on your part are failures and par for the course for you.

now after you address all that

A.) im still waiting for you to list these BELIEFS you claimed i stated...please state them
B.) then after that youll need to provided more info for the other case you are talking about and read what the commission decided and present that also.
C.) lastly now you need to state what OPINIONS i posted you are taking about on this issue

thanks!
 
The Commission = the state. The pertinent thing here is that they prevented the baker from following his conscience. Whether they think what his conscience dictates is right or wrong, serious or silly, is not a legal point and should not be the basis of Kennedy's ruling. Preventing his free exercise of religion "nicely" is just as onerous as doing it in a sarcastic fashion. The result is the same.

Nope. That was not the ruling though. This ruling would not pertain to future cases in respect to claims that a person's religious belief should exempt them from obeying public accommodation laws.
 
The decision said the commission mistreated the baker. It didn't say that the baker could discriminate because of warped religious beliefs.

Because it did not treat his religious views as equally worthy of protection.
 
Enticement is the name of the game. The idea is to get someone to read the article. Now I am not speaking to the efficiency of that. But there is not one word or use of word in that title that is false. If you just look at a title, and try to tell people what the article is saying without reading the article, then the one spreading "#Fake News" is you. Which is what is happening here with anyone who is trying to say the article or title makes a claim of a narrow vote.

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You are correct that Reuters is nothing more than clickbait at this point, but you are incorrect that their title wasn't false. It was false. They called it a narrow victory, it wasn't. It was 7-2. If they wanted to say it was a narrow decision then the narrow would have to refer to the decision, not the victory. They were wrong, like usual, even if you use the clickbait excuse. They changed their title for a reason. They wouldn't have done so if the title was accurate.
 
It is not fair to assume that and it is easily understandable if someone stipulates that as a provision of selling the product, that they would not attend. Not everyone needs or wants a tiered or complicated wedding cake.

Explain to me why it's not fair to assume that standard procedure among bakeries would apply here until we know otherwise?
 
Explain to me why it's not fair to assume that standard procedure among bakeries would apply here until we know otherwise?

Why would you need the baker to attend if you just get a small wedding cake? Some are. Little "assembly" required. And does he only hire people with his own feelings on this? Why could one of them not go?
 
Why would you need the baker to attend if you just get a small wedding cake? Some are. Little "assembly" required. And does he only hire people with his own feelings on this? Why could one of them not go?

If the bakery sends any worker, that can be seen as endorsing the establishment. What happens if he sends a worker there to set up the cake, a religious person that makes up the larger demographic of who they cater to sees them and starts spreading rumors about them supporting gay weddings? Next thing you know their reputation is harmed and people are boycotting. Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't, but it's a risk. Also, if the baker sends a worker, they might not do as good of a job, reputation harmed again. Finally, sending a worker and refusing to get themselves could still be seen as discrimination. I've always wondered why the gay couple wouldn't want to go to a bakery that actually wants to bake for them. Aren't there many bakeries that do a fantastic job that would happily bake for them?
 
If the bakery sends any worker, that can be seen as endorsing the establishment. What happens if he sends a worker there to set up the cake, a religious person that makes up the larger demographic of who they cater to sees them and starts spreading rumors about them supporting gay weddings? Next thing you know their reputation is harmed and people are boycotting. Maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't, but it's a risk. Also, if the baker sends a worker, they might not do as good of a job, reputation harmed again. Finally, sending a worker and refusing to get themselves could still be seen as discrimination. I've always wondered why the gay couple wouldn't want to go to a bakery that actually wants to bake for them. Aren't there many bakeries that do a fantastic job that would happily bake for them?

That is a really farfetched idea, especially since that could happen by simply someone seeing a same sex couple in the store. Forget the fact that such a person would be an idiot for assuming the baker supports it simply for following the law and providing someone who will personally support it. Heck, their employees could even be invited guests to the wedding and some idiot make that connection, wrongly, because they are helping with the cake that they do get.
 
That is a really farfetched idea, especially since that could happen by simply someone seeing a same sex couple in the store. Forget the fact that such a person would be an idiot for assuming the baker supports it simply for following the law and providing someone who will personally support it. Heck, their employees could even be invited guests to the wedding and some idiot make that connection, wrongly, because they are helping with the cake that they do get.

Maybe, but some of that is uncontrollable. What we are talking about here is controllable. There's also a big difference between someone coming to the baker's establishment and the baker going to someone else's wedding. The fact is that same sex marriages are against their religious beliefs, which is normal, and they don't want to have to violate their religious beliefs by supporting a wedding of a gay couple by baking their cake. It's really that simple. You haven't even attempted to tell me why the gay couple doesn't go to a baker that actually wants to bake their cake.
 
Maybe, but some of that is uncontrollable. What we are talking about here is controllable. There's also a big difference between someone coming to the baker's establishment and the baker going to someone else's wedding. The fact is that same sex marriages are against their religious beliefs, which is normal, and they don't want to have to violate their religious beliefs by supporting a wedding of a gay couple by baking their cake. It's really that simple. You haven't even attempted to tell me why the gay couple doesn't go to a baker that actually wants to bake their cake.

And interracial marriages and interfaith marriages are also against some religious beliefs. Yet those are never mentioned as beliefs that need to be protected when it comes to these discussions.

Additionally, how a person views a situation and reacts to it is beyond the baker's control for the most part as well.

The laws are in place to support people even if they go to another place. It is because there are places or services where there might not be another option available or that option may cost them time or money that another person would not have had to spend based solely on their class, rather than any fair refusal by either party.
 
So.just to rephrase to see if I am understanding you correctly: If it is already on the shelf, then one does not have the right to refuse, but if it is to be made specifically to order, then one does have that right. Is that correct?

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this is how i am semi reading it even though the justices didn't fully come out and say it but some of them did.

there were severeal stand out issues that the majority wrote on:

But the critical question of when and how Phillips’ right to exercise his religion can be limited had to be determined, Kennedy emphasized, in a proceeding that was not tainted by hostility to religion. Here, Kennedy observed, the “neutral and respectful consideration to which Phillips was entitled was compromised”

Kennedy admonished, “is inappropriate for a Commission charged with the solemn responsibility of fair and neutral enforcement of Colorado’s anti-discrimination law—a law that protects discrimination on the basis of religion as well as sexual orientation.” Moreover, Kennedy added, the commission’s treatment of Phillips’ religious objections was at odds with its rulings in the cases of bakers who refused to create cakes “with images that conveyed disapproval of same-sex marriage.”

Here, Kennedy wrote, Phillips “was entitled to a neutral decisionmaker who would give full and fair consideration to his religious objection as he sought to assert it in all of the circumstances in which this case was presented, considered, and decided.” Because he did not have such a proceeding, the court concluded, the commission’s order – which, among other things, required Phillips to sell same-sex couples wedding cakes or anything else that he would sell to opposite-sex couples and mandated remedial training and compliance reports – “must be set aside.”

n his view, the different bakers’ cases – refusing to make cakes for a same-sex marriage and refusing to make cakes disparaging same-sex marriage – were, from a legal perspective, similar, and the commission was wrong to treat them differently just because it regarded Phillips’ beliefs as “offensive.” Using strong language, Gorsuch emphasized that, in the United States, “the place of secular officials isn’t to sit in judgment of religious beliefs, but only to protect their free exercise. Just as it is the ‘proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence’ that we protect speech that we hate, it must be the proudest boast of our free exercise jurisprudence that we protect religious beliefs that we find offensive.”

Justice Clarence Thomas wrote separately, in an opinion joined by Gorsuch, to address an issue that the court did not decide: whether an order mandating that Phillips bake cakes for same-sex weddings violates his right to free speech. In Thomas’ view, Phillips’ creation of custom wedding cakes is exactly the kind of “expressive” conduct protected by the First Amendment. Requiring Phillips to make such cakes for same-sex marriage, even when it will convey a message that “he believes his faith forbids,” violates his First Amendment rights.

Thomas’ discussion of Phillips’ free-speech claim seemed to acknowledge this, with his observation that, “in future cases, the freedom of speech could be essential to preventing” the Supreme Court’s 2015 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, recognizing a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, from being used to “portray everyone who does not” agree with that ruling “as bigoted and unentitled to express a different view.”
 
But after so many many 5/4 SCOTUS votes, it is really refreshing to see them mostly agreeing on something good and proper for a change.

i was surprised at the 7-2 vote.
i was expecting another 5-4 split.
 
And interracial marriages and interfaith marriages are also against some religious beliefs. Yet those are never mentioned as beliefs that need to be protected when it comes to these discussions.

Additionally, how a person views a situation and reacts to it is beyond the baker's control for the most part as well.

The laws are in place to support people even if they go to another place. It is because there are places or services where there might not be another option available or that option may cost them time or money that another person would not have had to spend based solely on their class, rather than any fair refusal by either party.

And the law is not on the side you are arguing, says the Supreme Court. The split was 7-2, so even liberal judges decided that the baker was in the right.
 
And the law is not on the side you are arguing, says the Supreme Court. The split was 7-2, so even liberal judges decided that the baker was in the right.

This is not true. The SCOTUS ruled very narrowly on this particular case, saying that basically the baker did not get a fair trial personally due to certain remarks made during the trial, not because he had a right to refuse to make the same sex couple's wedding cake. They did not actually rule on whether he had that right to refuse or not.

It is sort of like a person who is convicted of a crime appealing up to the SCOTUS that their trial was unfair. Just because they rule the trial was conducted unfairly does not mean that they are ruling that the crime did not happen or that the person did not actually commit the crime, despite the fact that in most cases the person is going to be acquitted because of receiving an unfair trial.
 
This is not true. The SCOTUS ruled very narrowly on this particular case, saying that basically the baker did not get a fair trial personally due to certain remarks made during the trial, not because he had a right to refuse to make the same sex couple's wedding cake. They did not actually rule on whether he had that right to refuse or not.

It is sort of like a person who is convicted of a crime appealing up to the SCOTUS that their trial was unfair. Just because they rule the trial was conducted unfairly does not mean that they are ruling that the crime did not happen or that the person did not actually commit the crime, despite the fact that in most cases the person is going to be acquitted because of receiving an unfair trial.

Yea, but if you are found to have had an unfair trial, you get a new trial, not an acquittal. The baker is not facing the state commission anymore. Also, if the SC decision is as narrow as everyone says, then I guess the next baker who refuses a cake for a gay wedding or anything else, is going back to the SC.
 
Yea, but if you are found to have had an unfair trial, you get a new trial, not an acquittal. The baker is not facing the state commission anymore. Also, if the SC decision is as narrow as everyone says, then I guess the next baker who refuses a cake for a gay wedding or anything else, is going back to the SC.

From what I'm reading, this is not true. If you are found to have been given an unfair trial, it seems to depend on many things as to what happens next. Sometimes it can overturn that earlier ruling, others it can go back to trial. It may depend on how it would be viewed when it comes to double jeopardy.

Not necessarily. If it goes up through the lower courts with the decisions still going against the baker, then the SCOTUS could simply decide to not hear that case, assuming that there was not shown animosity towards the baker in regards to their religious beliefs. It would depend on many things though.
 
This is not true. The SCOTUS ruled very narrowly on this particular case, saying that basically the baker did not get a fair trial personally due to certain remarks made during the trial, not because he had a right to refuse to make the same sex couple's wedding cake. They did not actually rule on whether he had that right to refuse or not.

It is sort of like a person who is convicted of a crime appealing up to the SCOTUS that their trial was unfair. Just because they rule the trial was conducted unfairly does not mean that they are ruling that the crime did not happen or that the person did not actually commit the crime, despite the fact that in most cases the person is going to be acquitted because of receiving an unfair trial.

If the Supreme Court did not rule against them, they ruled for them. The government is in the business of restricting rights. If they do not rule your right is restricted then you have the right.
 
From what I'm reading, this is not true. If you are found to have been given an unfair trial, it seems to depend on many things as to what happens next. Sometimes it can overturn that earlier ruling, others it can go back to trial. It may depend on how it would be viewed when it comes to double jeopardy.

Not necessarily. If it goes up through the lower courts with the decisions still going against the baker, then the SCOTUS could simply decide to not hear that case, assuming that there was not shown animosity towards the baker in regards to their religious beliefs. It would depend on many things though.

Have you read any sources from the Right? You might want to stop pretending like you know what you are talking about.
 
I agree and don't understand how anyone could disagree with anything you said. Forcing a person to engage in an activity that violates their personal beliefs and values isn't freedom, it's the exact opposite and it's wrong.

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Yeah.. why should we force businesses to be decent and fair with people?

What do you want to bet that if the demographics ever change in America where white Christians are a minority.. and they are being discriminated against by muslim/jewish/black/gay business owners... that white Christians will be singing a different tune on how wonderful and free.. discrimination is.

Just sayin.
 
From what I'm reading, this is not true. If you are found to have been given an unfair trial, it seems to depend on many things as to what happens next. Sometimes it can overturn that earlier ruling, others it can go back to trial. It may depend on how it would be viewed when it comes to double jeopardy.

Not necessarily. If it goes up through the lower courts with the decisions still going against the baker, then the SCOTUS could simply decide to not hear that case, assuming that there was not shown animosity towards the baker in regards to their religious beliefs. It would depend on many things though.

I think the animosity thing is a completely harebrained basis upon which to make the decision. What is animosity to one person is not to another. These things must be decided on the law and nothing but the law. There is no law against saying nasty or biased things about Christians. Violating 1st amendment rights is another thing altogether. The Feds can't do it and neither can the states.
 
Yeah.. why should we force businesses to be decent and fair with people?

What do you want to bet that if the demographics ever change in America where white Christians are a minority.. and they are being discriminated against by muslim/jewish/black/gay business owners... that white Christians will be singing a different tune on how wonderful and free.. discrimination is.

Just sayin.

The baker was decent and fair. He allowed them to go to any other baker they wished. He also, no doubt, will treat any future gay couples in a similar manner. What could be more fair than that? I suppose you mean fair as in trampling his religious rights; that sort of fair.
 
I think the animosity thing is a completely harebrained basis upon which to make the decision. What is animosity to one person is not to another. These things must be decided on the law and nothing but the law. There is no law against saying nasty or biased things about Christians. Violating 1st amendment rights is another thing altogether. The Feds can't do it and neither can the states.

There is during a legal trial, the right to an impartial "jury", 6th Amendment. Speaking with hostility against a person's religious beliefs can easily be seen to violate that before secular laws truly could be seen to violate religious freedom.
 
There is during a legal trial, the right to an impartial "jury", 6th Amendment. Speaking with hostility against a person's religious beliefs can easily be seen to violate that before secular laws truly could be seen to violate religious freedom.

That still leaves you trying to figure out what qualifies as truly impartial. The law, as designed, is hostile to Christians serious about their religion, so the law itself is what is at fault. Even had the Commission made no disparaging comments, this case would have still had the same merits.
 
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