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Soviet ("Muscovite") vs. Nazi posters - amazing 100% similarity!

2011-qli-map1.png


Venezuela also has a better quality of life than these countries. It's expensive to do this, and financing it exclusively on oil is stupid. They ought to develop other industries if they want to advance more.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Hell, you are showing a graphic from 2011. Care to show a graphic made in at least the last half decade?

Heck, let me do the work for you. This is a much more modern rating, 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_...ries_by_the_Good_Country_Index_1.2_(2017).png

Venezuela is at the very bottom of the chart. Trying to prove your claim with horribly outdated data is not a good way to try and prove your case.
 
This isn't playing with the numbers.

Yes, it is. You started out by claiming the Nazis dropped unemployment to virtually 0 and when it was pointed out that wasn't entirely accurate you doubled down and refused to admit that.


You're essentially saying that Germany never could have done what the US did after the war. Why?

Jesus Christ are you actually serious?

Maybe because the two situations are entirely different. Maybe it's because the US at the end of the war is a major industrial giant with no competition whereas Germany in 1939 isn't. Maybe the US has vast natural resources that Germany doesn't. Maybe it's because the German currency is backed up by a gold standard that has been sold off to pay for weapons. Maybe it's because the German government is billions of Marks in debt. Maybe it's because the mainstay of the German economy, manufactured products designed to be exported, are no longer being made. Maybe it's because the imports they need to sustain their industries can no longer be procured because the Reich can't pay for these raw materials any more.

It's almost like the Reich spending 70% of it's budget on the Wehrmacht indicated that their primary goal was military spending, not economic stability, and in order to achieve the ultimate goal of taking what Germany needed by force, and economic policies were government by short term decision making rather than long term planning and preparation. And when they did try to create some semblance of economic stability like the 4 Year Plan, it was so heavily undermined by inefficiency, corruption and incompetence that it failed to actually meet it's goals.

It's almost like the Nazi fantasy of Germany being an agrarian rural society free from the shackles of Jewish-Bolshevist capitalist banking wasn't based on any actual realism and pursuit of this goal ran directly contrary to the economic and geographical reality Germany faced.

But I'm sure you have some fantastical explanation for all this that involves something about not taking a "comic book" view of history, while complaining about being called a Nazi apologist even though your desperation to explain such irrational policies defy any other explanation other than a blatant attempt at historical revisionism.
 
Hell, you are showing a graphic from 2011. Care to show a graphic made in at least the last half decade?

Heck, let me do the work for you. This is a much more modern rating, 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_...ries_by_the_Good_Country_Index_1.2_(2017).png

Venezuela is at the very bottom of the chart. Trying to prove your claim with horribly outdated data is not a good way to try and prove your case.
Can you provide an image that isn't broken?

And how much of that has to do with the drop in oil prices?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
Why do they need Communism if they're just going to be buffer states? This isn't a serious argument.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.


I dunno, the USSR was communist - so the countries they decided to control were established a communist countries.

Why the the USA set up a federal democracy is West Germany ? Was it because the USA was by chance also a Federal Democracy ?


Like it or not, the USSR spend a large chunk of its resources supporting communist dictatorships in Eastern Europe because it felt it needed a buffer zone to protect it from NATO invasion.
 
I dunno, the USSR was communist - so the countries they decided to control were established a communist countries.

Why the the USA set up a federal democracy is West Germany ? Was it because the USA was by chance also a Federal Democracy ?

You're really equating US influence in West Germany with Soviet influence in East Germany? Bud, you're more beholden to an ideology than reality.

Like it or not, the USSR spend a large chunk of its resources supporting communist dictatorships in Eastern Europe because it felt it needed a buffer zone to protect it from NATO invasion.

Buffer states have existed for a long time. They don't require you to dominate a country.
 
Yes, it is. You started out by claiming the Nazis dropped unemployment to virtually 0 and when it was pointed out that wasn't entirely accurate you doubled down and refused to admit that.

It is accurate. Now, you can argue that armament spending and the like aren't great uses of labor, and that's a fair criticism. However, how is getting women back raising their families while maintaining quality of life something that I should criticize?

Maybe because the two situations are entirely different. Maybe it's because the US at the end of the war is a major industrial giant with no competition whereas Germany in 1939 isn't. Maybe the US has vast natural resources that Germany doesn't. Maybe it's because the German currency is backed up by a gold standard that has been sold off to pay for weapons. Maybe it's because the German government is billions of Marks in debt. Maybe it's because the mainstay of the German economy, manufactured products designed to be exported, are no longer being made. Maybe it's because the imports they need to sustain their industries can no longer be procured because the Reich can't pay for these raw materials any more.

Huh? Nazi Germany was not on the gold standard.

It's almost like the Reich spending 70% of it's budget on the Wehrmacht indicated that their primary goal was military spending, not economic stability, and in order to achieve the ultimate goal of taking what Germany needed by force, and economic policies were government by short term decision making rather than long term planning and preparation. And when they did try to create some semblance of economic stability like the 4 Year Plan, it was so heavily undermined by inefficiency, corruption and incompetence that it failed to actually meet it's goals.

It's almost like the Nazi fantasy of Germany being an agrarian rural society free from the shackles of Jewish-Bolshevist capitalist banking wasn't based on any actual realism and pursuit of this goal ran directly contrary to the economic and geographical reality Germany faced.

But I'm sure you have some fantastical explanation for all this that involves something about not taking a "comic book" view of history, while complaining about being called a Nazi apologist even though your desperation to explain such irrational policies defy any other explanation other than a blatant attempt at historical revisionism.

You're full of criticisms, but it's really very simple. Did the Nazis oversee a recovery greater than the US? Absolutely. There's no question. Was it sustainable? Who knows. You say there's no way, while I point to China and say it was entirely possible.
 
I don't know what this is or who makes it. Why should I use this instead of something like GDP per capita?

Well, it covers a great many things if you look, not just GDP.

It is also 6 years newer then the one you posted.
 
It is accurate. Now, you can argue that armament spending and the like aren't great uses of labor, and that's a fair criticism. However, how is getting women back raising their families while maintaining quality of life something that I should criticize?

Oh I'm sure it sounds perfect when you ignore everything else that is going on.

Huh? Nazi Germany was not on the gold standard.

Not the gold standard, it was held against gold parity. That was bad wording on my part.

And that doesn't invalidate any of the other mentioned troubles.

Was it sustainable? Who knows.

Everyone knew, you denying it doesn't change that.

You say there's no way, while I point to China and say it was entirely possible.

They aren't even remotely equivalent and don't prove your point at all.

Your obsession with validating what has been proven by historians, economists and even the Reich's own ministers is historical revisionism.
 
Oh I'm sure it sounds perfect when you ignore everything else that is going on.

Yes, in the midst of a general rise in the standard of living it's a great thing.

Not the gold standard, it was held against gold parity. That was bad wording on my part.

And that doesn't invalidate any of the other mentioned troubles.

Sovereign currency issuers cannot default.

Everyone knew, you denying it doesn't change that.

They aren't even remotely equivalent and don't prove your point at all.

Your obsession with validating what has been proven by historians, economists and even the Reich's own ministers is historical revisionism.

You argued that they weren't equivalent because China has a larger population, or something like that which made no sense. Why is 10% growth over decades reasonable for China but unreasonable for any other country?
 
Well, it covers a great many things if you look, not just GDP.

It is also 6 years newer then the one you posted.

What else does it cover? It lists contributions to the planet and the human race, but I have no idea what that means.

For instance, this is one of the indicators:
Number of foreign students studying in the country relative to GDP

Does this really contribute to a rise in standard of living? No. This is utterly arbitrary.
 
What else does it cover? It lists contributions to the planet and the human race, but I have no idea what that means.

For instance, this is one of the indicators:
Number of foreign students studying in the country relative to GDP

Does this really contribute to a rise in standard of living? No. This is utterly arbitrary.

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Germany did. Spectacularly. Ever seen a wheelbarrow full of worthless German Reichsmarks?

Hyperinflation is possible, don't get me wrong. Argentina has had pretty bad inflation also. My point is that a currency is not at the mercy of debtors. In fact, the taking on of debt itself of a sovereign currency issuer is unnecessary.
 
Yes, in the midst of a general rise in the standard of living it's a great thing.

A standard of living so good certain foodstuffs had to be rationed and tens of thousands were thrown in concentration camps.

Sovereign currency issuers cannot default.

Are you really trying to argue that's the end all and there's no other problems that might arise from just making more money?

You argued that they weren't equivalent because China has a larger population, or something like that which made no sense. Why is 10% growth over decades reasonable for China but unreasonable for any other country?

It amazes me how on one hand you display a more than rudimentary understanding of economics yet utterly refuse to accept the facts in front of you.

Germany's GDP growth was unsustainable because of the way it was happening, which was driven by massive government spending. It was based on the Reich spending billions of marks on rearmament, which required a major expansion of it's industrial base to do so and as a result GDP skyrocketed and unemployment dropped.

China's GDP growth has been driven by it's government taking advantage of it's large pool of cheap labor to become a major manufacturer of consumer goods which are then exported across the world. China makes money off of this, and then uses that excess revenue to further refine it's industrial base and export market therefore keeping growth going.

Since this has been explained to you countless times by now and your only excuse is denial you have no reason to not understand this, but I'll repeat it anyway.

Germany also earned money by exporting manufactured goods, but after rearmament German exports dropped as resources were focused on rearmament. Germany also imported vital materials it couldn't get from anything else; textiles and rearmament, Germany's largest employers between 1933-1939 were nearly entirely reliant on imports. But the collapse of Germany's foreign exchange (since all the money was being used to buy raw materials for rearmament) and the depletion of it's reserves meant that Germany could no longer pay for the imports it needed.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out, so you have no excuse for why you don't understand it. If Germany can't pay for those imports it's major industries have to shut down and those millions of Germans return to the unemployment line. When faced with this inevitable problem you offered halfassed solutions that would've done nothing. German agricultural management had already drive off half a million farmers and farm hands, and there's hardly any more space for more farms. The service sector isn't anywhere big enough to accommodate that many people, and there's no other industry big enough to handle the influx of millions of workers.

And really the whole nail in the coffin is that Germany's own economic ministers realized the problem they were facing and were shut down when they brought it up. And yet you insist that it's some big mystery as to what would've happened when Germany ran out of the resources to function as a modern nation.
 
A standard of living so good certain foodstuffs had to be rationed and tens of thousands were thrown in concentration camps.

Versus having 30% of the workforce unemployed in 1932 and having GDP crash about 15%. Yes, that's a great improvement.

Are you really trying to argue that's the end all and there's no other problems that might arise from just making more money?

Obviously, but to act as if their economy was about to fail because some debts were due is alarmism, not an objective view of the situation.

It amazes me how on one hand you display a more than rudimentary understanding of economics yet utterly refuse to accept the facts in front of you.

Germany's GDP growth was unsustainable because of the way it was happening, which was driven by massive government spending. It was based on the Reich spending billions of marks on rearmament, which required a major expansion of it's industrial base to do so and as a result GDP skyrocketed and unemployment dropped.

You were saying?

NA-CE508A_OUTLO_9U_20150201135709.jpg


In 1935 (the last year I can get a solid number in the Wages of Destruction), military spending was at most 6 billion Reichsmarks. GNP was nearly 70 billion Reichsmarks. That's about 8.5%. It's high, but it's nothing crazy. That's what the US regularly spent between WWII and the 1970s. It didn't destroy our economy.

By the time war breaks out yes, the spending is massive, but it has to be when you're in a world war.

China's GDP growth has been driven by it's government taking advantage of it's large pool of cheap labor to become a major manufacturer of consumer goods which are then exported across the world. China makes money off of this, and then uses that excess revenue to further refine it's industrial base and export market therefore keeping growth going.

Since this has been explained to you countless times by now and your only excuse is denial you have no reason to not understand this, but I'll repeat it anyway.

Germany also earned money by exporting manufactured goods, but after rearmament German exports dropped as resources were focused on rearmament. Germany also imported vital materials it couldn't get from anything else; textiles and rearmament, Germany's largest employers between 1933-1939 were nearly entirely reliant on imports. But the collapse of Germany's foreign exchange (since all the money was being used to buy raw materials for rearmament) and the depletion of it's reserves meant that Germany could no longer pay for the imports it needed.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this out, so you have no excuse for why you don't understand it. If Germany can't pay for those imports it's major industries have to shut down and those millions of Germans return to the unemployment line. When faced with this inevitable problem you offered halfassed solutions that would've done nothing. German agricultural management had already drive off half a million farmers and farm hands, and there's hardly any more space for more farms. The service sector isn't anywhere big enough to accommodate that many people, and there's no other industry big enough to handle the influx of millions of workers.

And really the whole nail in the coffin is that Germany's own economic ministers realized the problem they were facing and were shut down when they brought it up. And yet you insist that it's some big mystery as to what would've happened when Germany ran out of the resources to function as a modern nation.

It doesn't? The US alone has 125 million people working in the service sector.
 
Versus having 30% of the workforce unemployed in 1932 and having GDP crash about 15%. Yes, that's a great improvement.



Obviously, but to act as if their economy was about to fail because some debts were due is alarmism, not an objective view of the situation.

Pretending that debts is the only financial issue Germany faced is farcical.

You were saying?

Holy ****!

That means nothing because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

In 1935 (the last year I can get a solid number in the Wages of Destruction), military spending was at most 6 billion Reichsmarks. GNP was nearly 70 billion Reichsmarks. That's about 8.5%. It's high, but it's nothing crazy. That's what the US regularly spent between WWII and the 1970s. It didn't destroy our economy.

Military spending ultimately reached 10% Germany's national income, of good and services purchased by the Reich the Wehrmacht accounted for 70% in 1935 and 80% three years later. Total national output between 1935 and 1937 was dominated by the military, around 67%. Given that the economic recovery was driven nearly entirely by military spending, pretending that Germany wasn't spending that much money is laughable.

By the time war breaks out yes, the spending is massive, but it has to be when you're in a world war.

That's such a stupid cop out I can't believe you actually typed that.


It doesn't? The US alone has 125 million people working in the service sector.

Are you seriously comparing the US economy today to Germany's in the 1930s? Are you daft?
 
Pretending that debts is the only financial issue Germany faced is farcical.

This is the main issue we keep talking about.

Holy ****!

That means nothing because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

You said that Germany's GDP growth was unsustainable because it was due to government spending. I show you an example of a country with heavy infrastructure spending and high GDP growth (China), yet you won't explain to me why it's sustainable for China but not Germany.

Military spending ultimately reached 10% Germany's national income, of good and services purchased by the Reich the Wehrmacht accounted for 70% in 1935 and 80% three years later. Total national output between 1935 and 1937 was dominated by the military, around 67%. Given that the economic recovery was driven nearly entirely by military spending, pretending that Germany wasn't spending that much money is laughable.

10% is high, but it's not unprecedented. The US has lowered spending on military spending relative to GDP without a massive crash. Why would it have been impossible for Germany to do the same?

That's such a stupid cop out I can't believe you actually typed that.

How is it a cop out? We've from the beginning limited economic analysis to between the seizure of power and the invasion of Poland. Obviously total war isn't good for consumers.

Are you seriously comparing the US economy today to Germany's in the 1930s? Are you daft?

Are you seriously saying that what the US has accomplished would have been impossible for Germany? Why?
 
This is the main issue we keep talking about.

No, it's what you keep trying to reference as though it was Germany's only financial issue.

You said that Germany's GDP growth was unsustainable because it was due to government spending.

No, that's not what I said. What I said, and what I have specified very clearly numerous times now, is that German growth was driven by military spending that by it's very nature does not provide a real economic benefit. Having fleets of tanks and aircraft isn't an economic bonus, it's a drain. And since I already know you're going to say "But it created jobs!" yes, it did, and they would've lost those jobs after Germany ran out of raw materials and the ability to purchase more.

10% is high, but it's not unprecedented.

For a country who's national income was just $43 billion? Yes it is! It's insane!

The US has lowered spending on military spending relative to GDP without a massive crash. Why would it have been impossible for Germany to do the same?

Are you kidding me?

When during peace time has defense spending accounted for 2/3rd of American national output? The reason the US has been able to lower military spending relative to GDP without major repercussions is because growth and output wasn't dependent on it. Germany's recovery after 1935 was.

Obviously total war isn't good for consumers.

Then spending so much on the Wehrmacht during the 30s made no sense.


Are you seriously saying that what the US has accomplished would have been impossible for Germany? Why?

Germany is not a vast continent spanning country with access to vast amount of raw materials, nor did it possess the financial strapping and capability to replicate what the US did? Absolutely.

What you are suggesting is that Hitler's Germany could, upon the collapse of it's two major industries due to raw materials shortages, could suddenly and quickly create a service sector large enough to employ millions of freshly unemployed and have them trained and productive faster than the inevitable political fallout that would follow such a collapse is ludicrous.
 
No, it's what you keep trying to reference as though it was Germany's only financial issue.

Because you brought it up as an issue that would bring impending doom. They were on a fiat currency. It was anything but.

No, that's not what I said. What I said, and what I have specified very clearly numerous times now, is that German growth was driven by military spending that by it's very nature does not provide a real economic benefit. Having fleets of tanks and aircraft isn't an economic bonus, it's a drain. And since I already know you're going to say "But it created jobs!" yes, it did, and they would've lost those jobs after Germany ran out of raw materials and the ability to purchase more.

Look, I'm not an imbecile. I know that military spending doesn't benefit consumers in any way. I just fail to see how it's so obvious that they wouldn't have been able to move away from it and into a more consumer driven economy. It's exactly what the US did after the war. So in the hypothetical situation that WWII doesn't happen, why couldn't the Germans have done the same?

For a country who's national income was just $43 billion? Yes it is! It's insane!

Over the long term I agree. However, the US spent massively during the war (obviously) and recovered nicely when defense spending went down after the war. You're acting as if this is something that's irreversible, or that portends doom. It's simply not true.

Are you kidding me?

When during peace time has defense spending accounted for 2/3rd of American national output? The reason the US has been able to lower military spending relative to GDP without major repercussions is because growth and output wasn't dependent on it. Germany's recovery after 1935 was.

Why are we limiting ourselves to peace time? US GDP grew significantly during the war, much of that due to military expenditure. If what you're saying is true, then they would have been doomed after the war. That's not what happened.

Then spending so much on the Wehrmacht during the 30s made no sense.

Building up your military after it was wrecked and the largest military in the world is on your border seems totally defensible to me.

Germany is not a vast continent spanning country with access to vast amount of raw materials, nor did it possess the financial strapping and capability to replicate what the US did? Absolutely.

A service economy requires vast amounts of natural resources?

What you are suggesting is that Hitler's Germany could, upon the collapse of it's two major industries due to raw materials shortages, could suddenly and quickly create a service sector large enough to employ millions of freshly unemployed and have them trained and productive faster than the inevitable political fallout that would follow such a collapse is ludicrous.

The US has had brief recessions while it's transitioned also. There likely would have been a brief downturn as they retooled the economy. Would it have been anything on the scale of the Depression? Unlikely. They were able to transition to armaments production rather quickly. Why can they not do the same to become a more consumer driven economy?
 
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