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Soviet ("Muscovite") vs. Nazi posters - amazing 100% similarity!

Err... your link claims the opposite of what you're saying. The death toll of Stalin was massively revised downwards after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Hitler was in power for 11 years and had a high estimate of none combat related death is 17 million people. Stalin was in power for 31 years and had a high estimate none combat related death is 49 million people.

The annual average for Hitler was 1.54 million. For Stalin its 1.58 million.

Even if what you claim is true would that make Stalin any less evil?

Just think both Hitler and Stalin share your ideology. The only difference between the two is Stalin chose his victims by political ideology and economic class while Hitler chose his victims by race and religion.

Oh and by the way, Hitler's hatred of capitalism was one of the reasons he targeted the Jews. At the same time they had a Great Depression even worse than ours. Jewish businessmen were very visibly some of the only prosperous people on Germany, causing resentment among almost all Germans.
 
Your own link doesn't back up what you said.

We know now from demographic and Soviet records that Stalin is responsible for the death of some 7-10 million people. Horrific numbers, but considering Hitler is responsible for the deaths of the Holocaust and the war in Europe his death count sits closer to 40 million. Not really comparable.

see #426
 
Because they have a lot of soldiers to feed. Look, all else being equal, yes, it's better to have a smaller army to get more production. However, when you're worried about the Soviet Union and the Western allies all being against you, you don't have much of a choice. Would they have had a smaller army if they weren't threatened? Who knows. Yes, their economy would have been better with a smaller army. That doesn't mean that their agricultural policies were stupid.

A Red Army threat that didn't actually exist combined with a Western Allies that were literally willing to bend over backwards to appease Hitler. There's no actual justification for the the rearmament Hitler pursued save for his own desire to remake Europe in his image.

Why are we looking exclusively at business capital? The point is that they could have taken 8.5 billion Reichsmarks worth of wealth. That would have bankrupted the country.

And if it would prove so disastrous for the economy why is that not taken into account? You can claim that's more of a social issue but since the impact on the economic situation is clear and present than how can you separate them?


This is just a fact. Emigration, which was mostly Jewish, was a big contributor to the loss of foreign reserves.

Then surely everything must have been alright

Not everything that the Nazis did was pure evil. I don't take a comic book view of history.

No, you just ignore the parts that are inconvenient.

I'm not defending their persecutions of marginalized groups. We're debating their economic policy. Is it necessary to marginalize these groups in order to get Germans in decent housing? No, therefore we can look at these issues separately.

Economic policy that was directly involved or affected social and domestic policy as well. They didn't exist in a vacuum.

I'm not disagreeing, though I don't think the Volkswagon program was anywhere close to being met. Other projects were, like their radios, which yes, were used for propaganda. I'm not saying that this was utopia. I'm just saying that it worked better than the New Deal or comparable programs.

So 7 years after the stock market crash unemployment was still above 14%. That's enough time to start to get impatient.

You keep saying that Hitler's Recovery was better than the New Deal but by now surely you understand how Hitler's policies were driving the Germany economy to collapse, and you leave out that a huge chunk of German unemployment was eliminated by conscription. The US unemployment would've dropped too if FDR had drafted 5 million Americans into the Army as part of his New Deal.
 
A Red Army threat that didn't actually exist combined with a Western Allies that were literally willing to bend over backwards to appease Hitler. There's no actual justification for the the rearmament Hitler pursued save for his own desire to remake Europe in his image.

We can quibble over just how much they should have spent without ever reaching a solid answer. The point is that they had to spend more than Weimar; I don't think there can be any question about that.

And if it would prove so disastrous for the economy why is that not taken into account? You can claim that's more of a social issue but since the impact on the economic situation is clear and present than how can you separate them?

Because you're trying to blame the situation exclusively on economic policies. Getting rid of the Jews isn't an economic policy. They pursued a social policy that hindered their economic aims.

You keep saying that Hitler's Recovery was better than the New Deal but by now surely you understand how Hitler's policies were driving the Germany economy to collapse, and you leave out that a huge chunk of German unemployment was eliminated by conscription. The US unemployment would've dropped too if FDR had drafted 5 million Americans into the Army as part of his New Deal.

Let's just debate this point then. By what objective measures ought I to consider the New Deal more successful than Nazi economic policies?
 
You can't just ignore it. Communists were clearly intent on spreading their ideology.

Your attempts to equate Soviet desire to spread communism and the Nazi's fundamental need to conquer is a false equivalence.

The Soviets never shared the Nazi tendency for overt and large scale seizures of land and territory. It's not that they had any moral qualms about subjugating people or forcing their ideology on it, but it was against their own stated ideological purposes.

Nazi Germany embarked on it's campaign of conquest out of an expressed desire to both gain territory to sustain and expand the supremacy of the Aryan people, which was supposed to be embodied in the agrarian rural conditions that Germany could only achieve by seizing land and livings space. Other conquests were directed against nations who's past actions were believed to have offended Germany, namely Britain and France.

Why you feel the Soviets somehow shared that sentiment is beyond me. Arguing that they would revert to the same kind of overt military action to spread communism doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Seizing the Baltics, parts of Finland, and eastern Poland does nothing substantial to help the spread of international communism. By their own admission the Soviets justification of seizing the Baltics was entirely strategic in nature in order to protect the most direct overland route to Leningrad and Soviet ports in the Baltic Sea.

The idea that without Hitler and the Nazis that Stalin would order the Red Army to invade Europe to spread Communism isn't supported by any credible evidence. The RKKA certainly wasn't preparing for it, it was counter to the Soviets own ideological stances, as well as what we know about Stalin and his foreign policy.

You know as well as I do that it isn't just troops. It's logistics. It's equipment.

Well if you know as well as I do, then surely you know the Far Eastern Front still did not represent a critical component in sustaining the survival of the Soviet Union.

I don't think Hitler invades Poland without that pact.

I don't see why you would think that. Hitler planned his invasion of Poland starting in April 1939 months before the MRP was made.
 
We can quibble over just how much they should have spent without ever reaching a solid answer. The point is that they had to spend more than Weimar; I don't think there can be any question about that.

...why though? The only justification the Nazis had to spend so much on the Wehrmacht was because they intended to use it to conquer other people. There's no economic benefit in doing so, and Germany faced no existential threats.


Because you're trying to blame the situation exclusively on economic policies. Getting rid of the Jews isn't an economic policy. They pursued a social policy that hindered their economic aims.

The whole problem with foreign currency was directly because of the Nazi emphasis on imports for raw materials while exports of industrial products, the mainstay of the German economy, were falling.

Let's just debate this point then. By what objective measures ought I to consider the New Deal more successful than Nazi economic policies?

The fact that it managed to half unemployment without resorting to measures like mass conscription and dropping segments of the population from the employment list, that it didn't force the United States to engage in currency wars to sustain it's international trade, and it didn't cripple the economy in the long run as the Nazis did. Because as it's been said countless times by now, German rearmament was absolutely a drain on the economy that was leading Germany to financial ruin. We can argue all day on the effectiveness of the New Deal but that doesn't change the nothing the New Deal provided a drain on the American economy as did Germany spending more than 10% of her GNP on the Wehrmacht by 1936 and 70% of the Reich's spending was dedicated to rearmament.
 
No that is called quote mining and really does nothing more than demonstrate a lack of education on your part. The quote of dictatorship of the proleteriat in marxism means that the workers have the right to control political power rather than the elite class of royal and wealthy that controlled politics in his time. In actual practice that means that various political parties have a right to compete for the seats of government as in any democracy.

The dictatorship of the proletariat was predicated upon the idea that the workers made up the majority of the people in any given country. In a democratic country then, the proletariat would rule, they would dictate.

E Germany had two political parties when the wall came down. It was technically in a unity government with the ruling party. Thus is an example of dictatorship of the proletariat.
 
Disagree. the only difference between communist economics and capitalist is where the profit goes. Otherwise the intent of making profit is the same.


Then the objective of the socialist enterprise is to produce a profit. Will need to explain what exactly has changed from its capitalist competitor.
 
The dictatorship of the proletariat was predicated upon the idea that the workers made up the majority of the people in any given country. In a democratic country then, the proletariat would rule, they would dictate.

E Germany had two political parties when the wall came down. It was technically in a unity government with the ruling party. Thus is an example of dictatorship of the proletariat.


Any democracy that has a labour party or similar is also an example. But as well democracies also have parties that lean towards the capitalist wealthy and balance those parties leaning towards the workers.

The difference is that in marx's time only the wealthy, the religious powers and the monarchy had the eight to rule.
 
Then the objective of the socialist enterprise is to produce a profit. Will need to explain what exactly has changed from its capitalist competitor.

The difference is where the profit goes. In capitalism the owner of the business has the right to profit. With communism the workers have the right to the profit.

However in capitalism where the owner is also the worker then that balance is met. But unfortunately capitalism was not meant to also include corporate monopolies where shareholders and an elites ruling class only had means to the profit. That particular capitalism is a branch off it called laissez faire and is as ridiculous a philosophy as the other end of the extreme such as bolshevism.
 
Your attempts to equate Soviet desire to spread communism and the Nazi's fundamental need to conquer is a false equivalence.

The Soviets never shared the Nazi tendency for overt and large scale seizures of land and territory. It's not that they had any moral qualms about subjugating people or forcing their ideology on it, but it was against their own stated ideological purposes.

Poland, and all of Eastern Europe for that matter, would like to have a word with you.

Why you feel the Soviets somehow shared that sentiment is beyond me. Arguing that they would revert to the same kind of overt military action to spread communism doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Seizing the Baltics, parts of Finland, and eastern Poland does nothing substantial to help the spread of international communism. By their own admission the Soviets justification of seizing the Baltics was entirely strategic in nature in order to protect the most direct overland route to Leningrad and Soviet ports in the Baltic Sea.

The idea that without Hitler and the Nazis that Stalin would order the Red Army to invade Europe to spread Communism isn't supported by any credible evidence. The RKKA certainly wasn't preparing for it, it was counter to the Soviets own ideological stances, as well as what we know about Stalin and his foreign policy.

You have to explain to me why, in the fact of the fact that THEY ACTUALLY DID IT, I should believe that they wouldn't have done it.

Well if you know as well as I do, then surely you know the Far Eastern Front still did not represent a critical component in sustaining the survival of the Soviet Union.

If the Japanese had invaded, then the Soviet Union would have fallen. Of course, after the oil embargo there was no way that Japan could have done it, which is why they bombed Pearl Harbor. However, given that the Soviet Union nearly fell facing Germany alone, there is no way that they would have survived a two-front war.

I don't see why you would think that. Hitler planned his invasion of Poland starting in April 1939 months before the MRP was made.

Then why does Hitler even bother getting the Soviet Union to agree to that pact? He knows Britain and France are seriously threatening war. He doesn't want to go to war with the Soviet Union also at that time. He's trying to prevent a two-front war.
 
The difference is where the profit goes. In capitalism the owner of the business has the right to profit. With communism the workers have the right to the profit.

However in capitalism where the owner is also the worker then that balance is met. But unfortunately capitalism was not meant to also include corporate monopolies where shareholders and an elites ruling class only had means to the profit. That particular capitalism is a branch off it called laissez faire and is as ridiculous a philosophy as the other end of the extreme such as bolshevism.

The objective of profit is what socialists complain is a problem of capitalism. So for example, unemployment exists in a capitalist society so as to keep a pool of labor available to the capitalist at low wages so as to keep profits high. If this socialist interpretation is true, does unemployment exist in a socialist society as a means to increase profit to other workers in a particular firm? If unemployment does not exist in the socialist society, then what does it do to make up for that missing avenue of profit? Whatever it decides, it would be different than how the capitalist would decide.
 
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Any democracy that has a labour party or similar is also an example. But as well democracies also have parties that lean towards the capitalist wealthy and balance those parties leaning towards the workers.

The difference is that in marx's time only the wealthy, the religious powers and the monarchy had the eight to rule.

The communists didn't want a balance between the worker and capitalist though. And how does socialism advance if the objective is to keep capitalism in some sort of balance? And in any event, as the belief is that there are more workers than capitalists, such balance in government must therefore be undemocratic and needs to end. And the communists always argued that the capitalists would not peacefully give up their power. But if the capitalists don't give up their power, how is socialism built?
 
...why though? The only justification the Nazis had to spend so much on the Wehrmacht was because they intended to use it to conquer other people. There's no economic benefit in doing so, and Germany faced no existential threats.

Because you are surrounded by other countries with bigger, better armies, especially France, who just recently conquered you. Like I said before, we can disagree on the extent of their rearmament, but there is no good rationale for not rearming at all.

The whole problem with foreign currency was directly because of the Nazi emphasis on imports for raw materials while exports of industrial products, the mainstay of the German economy, were falling.

Yet I've shown you that Jewish emigration accounted for more loss of foreign reserves that the Reichsbank even held. You can't just ignore that.

The fact that it managed to half unemployment without resorting to measures like mass conscription and dropping segments of the population from the employment list, that it didn't force the United States to engage in currency wars to sustain it's international trade, and it didn't cripple the economy in the long run as the Nazis did. Because as it's been said countless times by now, German rearmament was absolutely a drain on the economy that was leading Germany to financial ruin. We can argue all day on the effectiveness of the New Deal but that doesn't change the nothing the New Deal provided a drain on the American economy as did Germany spending more than 10% of her GNP on the Wehrmacht by 1936 and 70% of the Reich's spending was dedicated to rearmament.

I'm still here unconvinced that the New Deal was better than Nazi economic policy. I'm far better off as a German worker where I'm guaranteed work and a paycheck, I have the KdF providing cheap vacations, I get subsidies for starting and raising my family, etc. What was the American experience? High unemployment, little relief, and a stagnant economy.

1024px-Graph_charting_income_per_capita_throughout_the_Great_Depression.svg.png


So Germany by 1935 had reached the average income of 1930. The US didn't do that until nearly 1940. Plus, and we cannot ignore this fact, Germany did that with everyone working. The US still had 15% unemployment, which ought to lower their average wages, yet that's not accounted for in this graph.

Germany wins here easily.
 
The objective of profit is what socialists complain is a problem of capitalism. So for example, unemployment exists in a capitalist society so as to keep a pool of labor available to the capitalist at low wages so as to keep profits high. If this socialist interpretation is true, does unemployment exist in a socialist society as a means to increase profit to other workers in a particular firm? If unemployment does not exist in the socialist society, then what does it do to make up for that missing avenue of profit? Whatever it decides, it would be different than how the capitalist would decide.

No, there is nothing inherently evil about profit, it is the basis of all economic transactions. What is evil is the hording of profit by theft from those who actually produce it which monopolistic capitalism does.

And again, no. Unemployment is in today's society, a natural part of nearly everyone's lives. Long gone is the idea that a person takes one job for life. Now the average person will have several careers and experience unemployment at some stages.

Unemployment is not really the evil of capitalism either. This is more an evil of a christian class system which keeps the poor locked into poverty through generations by a charity system that does nothing more than reduce the poor to beggars.

Socialist system should not be about eliminating that which is necessary for a working environment. It is about breaking the cycle of poverty and creating opportunity for the unemployed to not only get work but to be able to live without the stigma that is currently placed upon them by those who are as you say capitalists.

It is not the unemployed who are the problem. It is the capitalist desire to make their lives miserable as possible that is the problem even though as you say it is the capitalist system that creates them in the first place.
 
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The communists didn't want a balance between the worker and capitalist though. And how does socialism advance if the objective is to keep capitalism in some sort of balance? And in any event, as the belief is that there are more workers than capitalists, such balance in government must therefore be undemocratic and needs to end. And the communists always argued that the capitalists would not peacefully give up their power. But if the capitalists don't give up their power, how is socialism built?

Your confusing philosophies here. Communism and capitalism are theories of economics. The questions you ask here are political not economics.

Communism is about distribution of wealth to those who actually create that wealth. In a small business it is quite possible that the capitalist owner of the business is also the creator of any wealth produced by that business.

However when capitalism branches out to an extreme such as corporation monopolies and laissez faire capitalism then it needs to be kept in check and that is done best by a socialist government.

In most of the developed socialist countries there is a balance between workers and capitalists. But then unlike america they use a party political system with clear differences between labour and tory parties. ( To use an english expression)

Where as in america you have a country that really is a good example of the left and right wing all belong to the same bird.

And no, the communist do not always argue that the capitalist will not give up power. There are good examples of both sharing through democratic election of power. You confuse marxist thinking with modern life.

In marx's time there was no way the powerful would give up their privileged life without a fight. They had religion, the armed forces , the wealthy and royalty to back them while the poor had nothing. Today the people do have a voice and the ability to change things without using violence. Again it is only the americans with their obsession with guns that still are to lazy to do anything but pretend violent revolution is necessary.
 
Poland, and all of Eastern Europe for that matter, would like to have a word with you.

You have to explain to me why, in the fact of the fact that THEY ACTUALLY DID IT, I should believe that they wouldn't have done it.

You really need to stop equating Soviet actions during and immediately after WW2 and assuming that it was Stalin's secret plan all along. If the Soviets were planning to invade Eastern Europe this whole time and Hitler just happened to pop up at the wrong time, where's the planning? Where's the massive expansion of the Red Army to accommodate the need to occupy all of Eastern Europe? You keep ignoring the reality that the Red Army didn't reach a considerable size or strength up until the Wehrmacht had conquered half of Europe, in 1941. The Idea that Stalin wanted to invade Eastern Europe the whole time and just decided to wait until half of Europe was under German control to initiate a horribly planned and executed expansion effort is beyond stupid.

The Red Army invaded and occupied Eastern Europe for strategic purposes, the initial invasion of course being the simple reality of war and subsequent occupation driven by the desire for a buffer space to protect the USSR. That doesn't make it morally acceptable, but your claim that it was Stalin's plan all along suggests a level of foresight undreamt of.

But if you're going to keep claiming it, I'd like to see the proof. Where, between 1923-1939, is the evidence that Stalin and the RKKA were planning to invade Eastern Europe the whole time? Where's the mass exercises, the doctrinal developments, the weapons research, the memoirs or studies showing Stalin was preparing and training the Red Army to invade Eastern Europe? Why does the Red Army remain so pitiful, unorganized, poorly disciplined, and badly led and trained?

Because what you're suggesting right now is that the Red Army decided to wait until 1940 when Germany had conquered half of Europe to suddenly remember it was supposed to be planning to take over Eastern Europe this whole time, then proceeded to embark on an incredibly poorly managed and executed expansion program that left the Red Army in such a poor state it's hard to see them conquering a single country.

If the Japanese had invaded, then the Soviet Union would have fallen.

No they wouldn't have. There's nothing of vital strategic value on the Japanese-Soviet border who's loss would've doomed the USSR, nor does the IJA possess the ability to march deep enough into Russia to actually threaten anything of value.

Then why does Hitler even bother getting the Soviet Union to agree to that pact?

Peace of mind. The USSR had previously voiced concern over German actions against Czechoslovakia and Hitler wanted to ensure that they wouldn't intervene in Poland. But the idea that Hitler would just drop the invasion entirely is foolish. What would most likely happen is was Hitler actually wanted, a Polish rump state between German occupied Poland and the Soviets.

He knows Britain and France are seriously threatening war.

And Hitler made it abundantly clear he didn't believe France and Britain would follow through on their threats.

He's trying to prevent a two-front war.

He was gonna get that regardless of whether or not the Soviets entered the war. The Germans weren't expecting Poland to fall so quickly.
 
Because you are surrounded by other countries with bigger, better armies, especially France, who just recently conquered you.

You'll have to point out at which period France invaded and occupied and then dissolved the German government, turning the entire territory that constituted Germany and all her people into a conquered nation.

Second, both Britain and France had by the 1930s expressed their desire to have Germany return to the common market to the point that they even suspended payments of reparations.

Yet I've shown you that Jewish emigration accounted for more loss of foreign reserves that the Reichsbank even held. You can't just ignore that.

And you can't ignore this only became a problem after the institution of financial and economic policies that led to the need for the foreign currency reserves in the first place.

I'm far better off as a German worker where I'm guaranteed work and a paycheck, I have the KdF providing cheap vacations, I get subsidies for starting and raising my family, etc.
What was the American experience?

Comprehensive financial reform that didn't destroy the mainstay of the of the American economy and then required the mass persecution of an entire segment of the population in order to steal money from private savings in order to finance military expenditures.

Plus, and we cannot ignore this fact, Germany did that with everyone working.

Except for the people who just weren't counted on the employment rolls. Funny how you keep leaving that out.

Because basically all you're doing is grasping at a handful of statistics and arguing that's all the information you need and then ignoring everything else. A healthy German economy doesn't require the government to steal money from retirement funds and local governments, which the Reich did. Good economic policies don't force the government to ban private construction, institute wages restrictions and price controls, ban people from carrying currency outside the country, or force banks to buy bonds under threat of retribution. Good economic policies don't undermine the foundation of the national economy and cause a currency crisis, but there are all things that happened and you want me to ignore them in favor of your narrative.

The reality is by 1938 the Reich was spiraling towards financial disaster.

"As the Reichsbank put it: ‘The currency must now underpin not an expansive power politics, but a policy of peaceful construction. Historically we have before us the same task of conversion as Frederick the Great after the Seven Years War, Prime Minister Peel after the Napoleonic War and Mussolini after the war in Abyssinia. The main task is to manage the transition from the current war economy to a peacetime economy.’ This transition would not be painless or free of risk. But there was no alternative. Any further government spending financed by monetary expansion would simply add to the overhang of excessive purchasing power, which could only be contained by a further elaboration of the already cumbersome and unmanageable apparatus of surveillance and control. That, in turn, would result in a chronic deterioration in the standard of living, ‘the political and social consequence of which need not be further discussed’. ‘One should not therefore reinforce the dykes, but reduce the weight that is pressing against them.’ In doing so the Reichsbank knew that it had to proceed carefully. Though the inflationary spike could still be broken, this involved risks. An excessively sharp reduction in the volume of credit could easily turn the difficult transition into a disastrous ‘deflationary crisis’. Instead, the Reichsbank proposed to drain off excess purchasing power by issuing long-term bonds, enabling the Finance Ministry to consolidate its precarious budgetary situation. More importantly, however, there was an urgent need to ensure a rapid increase in the production of consumer goods. Only a supply of real goods to absorb at least some of the excess purchasing power could stem the inflationary threat. What the Reichsbank was calling for, in short, was a dramatic shift in priorities: a sharp reduction in ‘non-marketed output’ for the purposes of the state, which according to contemporary estimates accounted for 30 per cent of industrial production in 1938, in favour of the production of household consumer goods.4 A precondition, however, for all further action was the need to raise exports. The most serious threat to the German economy was the possibility of an acute balance of payments crisis. A sudden interruption of the import of essential raw materials and foodstuffs as in 1934 would be fatal for public confidence and might well jeopardize the delicate process of adjustment that the Reichsbank was trying to manage."

Tooze, Adam. The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy (pp. 286-287).
 
If we made Japan a colony after the war, then the analogy would work. We didn't, so it's not comparable.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.


So the USA exercised no rule over Japan in the post war period ?

I think you're wrong.



You failed to answer another question though: Should Canada invade the USA today ?
 
Show me where unemployment dropped significantly below 15%....

Can you not read...unemployment was dropping by the late 1930's


The USA was coming out of depression before WWII started.



...why should I believe that they didn't want to invade Eastern Europe?


Why should you believe that the USA didn't want to invade Germany prior to the outbreak of WWII ?
 
The US wasn't arming the allies prior to officially entering the war?

The USA was selling gun to the UK - are you saying that was enough to pull the USA out of depression ?

The UK was already coming out of depression by 1937 or 1938.


So was the USA


...Hitler was totally justified in invading Poland. Do you really want to make that case?

Are you saying that Hitler was justified in invading Poland ?


...I'm arguing that the Nazis and Soviets were both to blame....

Sorry, you're arguing that the USSR was to blame for the German invasion of its territory in 1941 ?


You're making a fool of yourself.


...the Soviet Union was a completely different military by the time the Wehrmacht ventured into the Caucasus....

???

I don't know how to respond since I have no idea of any point you're trying to make



...I wonder how Germany felt about having Communists right at its eastern border....

I don't know...maybe they thought it was an opportunity to sell them Volkswagens ?



...the point is, these same arguments that you're making to defend the actions of the Soviet Union also defend the actions of Nazi Germany. The only reasonable conclusion: they're both to blame.


How is the USSR to blame for the invasion of its territory by Nazi Germany ?

By your reasoning, all victims of invasion are to blame - at least in part.
 
Can you not read...unemployment was dropping by the late 1930's


The USA was coming out of depression before WWII started.

When did the war start? 1939. When did unemployment start significantly dropping? 1940.

330px-US_Unemployment_1910-1960.gif


Why should you believe that the USA didn't want to invade Germany prior to the outbreak of WWII ?
Are you seriously comparing US influence over West Germany to Soviet influence over East Germany?
 
The USA was selling gun to the UK - are you saying that was enough to pull the USA out of depression ?

Yes.

Are you saying that Hitler was justified in invading Poland ?

You said that the Soviet invasion of Finland was okay because they were just reclaiming lost territory. If that's okay, then the Nazi invasion of Poland is okay.

Sorry, you're arguing that the USSR was to blame for the German invasion of its territory in 1941 ?

No. I'm arguing that the USSR was also to blame for invading Poland and Finland and setting off WWII.

How is the USSR to blame for the invasion of its territory by Nazi Germany ?

By your reasoning, all victims of invasion are to blame - at least in part.

Barbarossa is the only thing that happened in WWII? No one is excusing Germany. You're the one here excusing Soviet aggression.
 
You really need to stop equating Soviet actions during and immediately after WW2 and assuming that it was Stalin's secret plan all along. If the Soviets were planning to invade Eastern Europe this whole time and Hitler just happened to pop up at the wrong time, where's the planning? Where's the massive expansion of the Red Army to accommodate the need to occupy all of Eastern Europe? You keep ignoring the reality that the Red Army didn't reach a considerable size or strength up until the Wehrmacht had conquered half of Europe, in 1941. The Idea that Stalin wanted to invade Eastern Europe the whole time and just decided to wait until half of Europe was under German control to initiate a horribly planned and executed expansion effort is beyond stupid.

The whole point of Barbarossa was to invade before they got any stronger. I'm not saying that they were ready in 1941.

The Red Army invaded and occupied Eastern Europe for strategic purposes, the initial invasion of course being the simple reality of war and subsequent occupation driven by the desire for a buffer space to protect the USSR. That doesn't make it morally acceptable, but your claim that it was Stalin's plan all along suggests a level of foresight undreamt of.

I'm saying that given that he actually did it, then why should I believe that he never would have done it?

But if you're going to keep claiming it, I'd like to see the proof. Where, between 1923-1939, is the evidence that Stalin and the RKKA were planning to invade Eastern Europe the whole time? Where's the mass exercises, the doctrinal developments, the weapons research, the memoirs or studies showing Stalin was preparing and training the Red Army to invade Eastern Europe? Why does the Red Army remain so pitiful, unorganized, poorly disciplined, and badly led and trained?

Because what you're suggesting right now is that the Red Army decided to wait until 1940 when Germany had conquered half of Europe to suddenly remember it was supposed to be planning to take over Eastern Europe this whole time, then proceeded to embark on an incredibly poorly managed and executed expansion program that left the Red Army in such a poor state it's hard to see them conquering a single country.

Yet that poorly managed army actually ended up conquering Eastern Europe. Does it happen without Western aid? Probably not, which is why I don't think the Red Army was going to do it in 1941. Would they have done it a few years later? I think there's good reason to believe that they would have at least expanded bit by bit, if not fully invading the entire continent.

No they wouldn't have. There's nothing of vital strategic value on the Japanese-Soviet border who's loss would've doomed the USSR, nor does the IJA possess the ability to march deep enough into Russia to actually threaten anything of value.

Then why keep anything but an insignificant number of troops in the east?

Peace of mind. The USSR had previously voiced concern over German actions against Czechoslovakia and Hitler wanted to ensure that they wouldn't intervene in Poland. But the idea that Hitler would just drop the invasion entirely is foolish. What would most likely happen is was Hitler actually wanted, a Polish rump state between German occupied Poland and the Soviets.

Instead he gets the Soviet Union right on his eastern border. This makes no sense.

And Hitler made it abundantly clear he didn't believe France and Britain would follow through on their threats.

And he was partially right. While they declared war, there was no real war until the invasion of France. So again, what's the point of that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
 
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