Socialized medicine at its finest, forced abortion in the UK

[EMNofSeattle]

This has nothing to do with babies but with at best a fetus, and you cannot have a death penalty for that which was never born/never existed legally or actually. And if a woman was raped she should always have the right to abort the ZEF.

Yes Kulaks aren’t people and should starve.

 

[Peter King]

Yes Kulaks aren’t people and should starve.

And what does this have to do with a woman's right to not be forced to carry a rapists child? You see that is why the pro-lifers are loosing the discussion. Because of these idiotic views that abortion should be illegal even if a woman was raped or the victim of incest. That makes right wing extremist look like the loons many people know they are.

 

[Tim the plumber]

The real problem is that she has a mental age of between 6 and 9, that is totally unfit for parenting IMHO.

That does not mean that she must have the baby aborted. We have plenty of social services and adoption agencies and her family, mother, is there. If we said that anybody who does not meet our expected standards of life should not be allowed to have children then who do you think the social services would stop from breeding?

 

[year2late]

As a pro CHOICER, I cannot condone this decision. If the pregnant woman is incapable of making decisions, then her legal guardian should decide. Not the courts.

That was my initial gut reaction. But it would be interesting to know the entire story. I am curious how the mother of the pregnant woman thinks she is going to care for her grandchild and her daughter. She couldn't even prevent the rape. We just have no REAL clue of any of the circumstances. I am curious if they are looking for the rapist?

But one thing is for certain, this case has nothing to do with being pro choice. For whatever the reasons, the court took the decision out of the legal guardians hands.

 

[jaeger19]

The issue I have with this is.. why does the government have the say versus the wishes of the woman's mother or father.. who would it seem be better able to make the decision for her incapacitated daughter.. than the government.

 

[Peter King]

Trump should launch military action to liberate the UK.

Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, Britain actually has been a free country in the past, so we know it's possible for them to be one again.

And it is still a very very free country.

 

[Peter King]

That does not mean that she must have the baby aborted. We have plenty of social services and adoption agencies and her family, mother, is there. If we said that anybody who does not meet our expected standards of life should not be allowed to have children then who do you think the social services would stop from breeding?

Did I say that this means the FETUS most be aborted? I stated if you want to abort it you should have done it in the first trimester, not deep in the 2nd trimester.

And nobody is talking about standard of life, we are talking about mental capacity, physically adult, mentally just above a 3rd grader and the inability of someone like that to raise a child.

 

[AmNat]

And it is still a very very free country.

Unless you tell a bad joke or don’t want your baby to be killed.

It’s clear that if we do liberate Europe, we’ll have to have a de-indoctrination program, just like last time.

 

[Peter King]

Unless you tell a bad joke or don’t want your baby to be killed.

It’s clear that if we do liberate Europe, we’ll have to have a de-indoctrination program, just like last time.

We don't need to be liberating thank you kindly especially not by the US, we have our own laws that we are quite pleased with. We don't want conservative oppressors forcing their idiotic freedom wrecking rules in Western Europe.

And million people in the UK tell bad jokes every single day. And nobody is killing baby's in the UK except a few criminals once in a blue moon.

 

[year2late]

Unless you tell a bad joke or don’t want your baby to be killed.

It’s clear that if we do liberate Europe, we’ll have to have a de-indoctrination program, just like last time.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Peter King]

Did I say that this means the FETUS most be aborted? I stated if you want to abort it you should have done it in the first trimester, not deep in the 2nd trimester.

And nobody is talking about standard of life, we are talking about mental capacity, physically adult, mentally just above a 3rd grader and the inability of someone like that to raise a child.

Oops that should be "must be aborted", that is what you get when you are battling sleepiness.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

And what does this have to do with a woman's right to not be forced to carry a rapists child? You see that is why the pro-lifers are loosing the discussion. Because of these idiotic views that abortion should be illegal even if a woman was raped or the victim of incest. That makes right wing extremist look like the loons many people know they are.

Why we’re losing? More people identify as pro-life now then when Roe was decided, we got anti-abortion judges being appointed by Trump, we have more states passing laws against this. Who’s losing are the baby killers who are now in all seriousness condoning infanticide to keep their cause alive.

Our cause is based on the idea the baby is an innocent life, granting abortion should be legal in the case of rape undermines the entire argument which is why your side created that dumb idea. Either the baby is a human being or it’s not, we don’t execute the rapist himself so why do you want me to grant we should execute an innocent third party?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Did I say that this means the FETUS most be aborted? I stated if you want to abort it you should have done it in the first trimester, not deep in the 2nd trimester.

And nobody is talking about standard of life, we are talking about mental capacity, physically adult, mentally just above a 3rd grader and the inability of someone like that to raise a child.

Fetus is Latin for baby so your distinction is pointless

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You are wrong.
And it not a nonsense argument.


Here are just a few of my quotes from past years on this forum.

March 2012





Nov 2013


From 2014




And from June 6 of this year.

I don’t care what you think individually or posts 8 years ago. “Pro-choice” doesnt even exist, it’s a political euphemism invented as part of abortionisms dehumanization campaign. You may not individually support forced abortion, but the base of your political philosophy is grounded in eugenics and social Darwinism. People who claim to be pro-choice openly use the arguments that more minority women need access to abortion, push abortion on vulnerable populations, pass laws mandating anti abortion pregnancy centers make referrals to abortion clinics which are publically funded and exempt from medical regulation, passed laws carrying out forced sterilizations without informed consent. These people are demonic. What you think as an individual matters as much to me as what Ivan the Russian peasant thought while fighting against his rightful King to put Lennin in power. You may think you don’t support such things, but the people counting on your support sure do

And in the future if push comes to shove and you have to vote for politicians who will bring back forced abortion and sterilization in this country and political candidates who oppose elective abortion we all know full well who you will back.

 

[minnie616]

I don’t care what you think individually or posts 8 years ago. “Pro-choice” doesnt even exist, ......

I disagree.

I posted this on another thread perhaps you missed it so I will repost it here.:


While I would never choose an abortion for myself I think it is important to protect the religious beliefs of the Jewish community and the beliefs of pro choice Christians. Our sincerely held beliefs mean as much to us as your religious beliefs mean to you.

Maybe you are unaware that the Jewish community does believe that before birth the unborn is thought of as an extension of the pregnant woman.

This is a quote from a member of our forum that posted on another thread.

Anti choice laws are a threat to my religious freedom as a Jew … because according to classical Jewish text and most rabbinic interpreters, a developing embryo or fetus is not ‘an unborn child’ or ‘person,’ but has the legal status of an appendage of the pregnant woman. It is part of her body, not a separate person, until the moment that a majority of a viable baby capable of independent life has been born.”

https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ion-pro-abortion-types-22.html#post1070134451

Why do you think your religious beliefs are more important than the beliefs of the Jewish community or the beliefs of the pro choice Christians?


Pro choice allows pregnant women to follow their own religious tenets or their conscience.

From the RCRC:

Good policy allows people of all religions to follow their own faiths and consciences in their own lives. In reproductive health, rights and justice, we define religious liberty as the right of a woman to make thoughtful decisions in private consultation with her doctor, her family and her faith. The religious beliefs of others should not interfere.

The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I disagree.

I posted this on another thread perhaps you missed it so I will repost it here.:


While I would never choose an abortion for myself I think it is important to protect the religious beliefs of the Jewish community and the beliefs of pro choice Christians. Our sincerely held beliefs mean as much to us as your religious beliefs mean to you.

Maybe you are unaware that the Jewish community does believe that before birth the unborn is thought of as an extension of the pregnant woman.

This is a quote from a member of our forum that posted on another thread.



https://www.debatepolitics.com/abor...ion-pro-abortion-types-22.html#post1070134451

Why do you think your religious beliefs are more important than the beliefs of the Jewish community or the beliefs of the pro choice Christians?


Pro choice allows pregnant women to follow their own religious tenets or their conscience.

From the RCRC:



The Moral Case – Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

Laws against abortion do not constitute imposition of religion since they do not command adherence to any specific religious act nor membership in any particular religious body. It is true that in secular society that atheists and Christian heretics and some obscure religious groups possess serious lack of morals and due to non-belief or heresy mistake their lack of virtue (such as selfishness) as a virtue and therefore will support anything that makes them feel better, but that doesn’t make a law against abortion predicated on humanity of the baby a religious imposition. Thus your argument is invalid.

Maybe my religion gives me the moral courage to stand for what’s right, but what I advocate for is purely secular. Society simply cannot function in any manner resembling Just on the idea that “well I can’t impose my beliefs on you and vice versa” any society where that idea is taken seriously is a failed state. All societies are built on imposing order on society any punishing those who won’t comply

 

[Peter King]

Why we’re losing? More people identify as pro-life now then when Roe was decided, we got anti-abortion judges being appointed by Trump, we have more states passing laws against this. Who’s losing are the baby killers who are now in all seriousness condoning infanticide to keep their cause alive.

Our cause is based on the idea the baby is an innocent life, granting abortion should be legal in the case of rape undermines the entire argument which is why your side created that dumb idea. Either the baby is a human being or it’s not, we don’t execute the rapist himself so why do you want me to grant we should execute an innocent third party?

But the support for Roe v. Wade as the law of the land and the right of women to have an abortion is only contested by about 27% in the last opinion poll about whether Roe v. Wade has to remain the law in the US. 65% support Roe v. Wade. So not sure that more people are pro-life.

Also there is no problem whatsoever if someone chooses to be pro-life, the issues start when people try and take a personal decision on a subject and try and force everybody else to live according to their anti-women's right views. I couldn't care less if all of the US was pro-life as long as they did not interfere in the rights of women, you know the pregnant ones, to make their own mind up without government or pro-life interference into their personal womb decisions.

 

[HumblePi]

Apparently a British judge is ordering a Nigerian catholic woman to have an abortion because of alleged mental disability. Make no mistake, the baby murder lobby has no limits, and seeing how the United Kingdom has no written constitution and no civil liberties to speak of, this is not surprising

The United States should impose economic sanctions against the UK and cancel trade deals, if I were Trump this is what I would do

UK court orders forced abortion for disabled Catholic, Nigerian woman

well I think she should be forced to have it and then you can adopt it, mentally challenged or not, you will do a great job raising her child, right?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

But the support for Roe v. Wade as the law of the land and the right of women to have an abortion is only contested by about 27% in the last opinion poll about whether Roe v. Wade has to remain the law in the US. 65% support Roe v. Wade. So not sure that more people are pro-life.

Also there is no problem whatsoever if someone chooses to be pro-life, the issues start when people try and take a personal decision on a subject and try and force everybody else to live according to their anti-women's right views. I couldn't care less if all of the US was pro-life as long as they did not interfere in the rights of women, you know the pregnant ones, to make their own mind up without government or pro-life interference into their personal womb decisions.

All laws are an interference in personal decisions, unless you’re arguing for anarchy, you don’t have an argument

 

[EMNofSeattle]

well I think she should be forced to have it and then you can adopt it, mentally challenged or not, you will do a great job raising her child, right?

I’m sure I would but since there’s a grandmother and social worker who support the decision to carry the baby that will not be necessary

 

[Peter King]

Fetus is Latin for baby so your distinction is pointless

Who gives a crap what ancient Roman's thought? It is a dead language, their definitions are pointless and meaningless. A baby is an infant/a newborn, a fetus therefor is not a baby.

 

[HumblePi]

I’m sure I would but since there’s a grandmother and social worker who support the decision to carry the baby that will not be necessary

Well aren't you lucky! Whew, that was close. Stand by, there may be more coming your way.

 

[Peter King]

All laws are an interference in personal decisions, unless you’re arguing for anarchy, you don’t have an argument

Again more nonsense, interfering with personal decisions is one thing, these are personal medical decisions where the government has close to ZERO right to interfere and where the likes of you and your pro-life cult have negative a Zillion right to interfere.

Her body her choice and NONE of YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS what she chooses to do with HER WOMB.

 

[HumblePi]

Who gives a crap what ancient Roman's thought? It is a dead language, their definitions are pointless and meaningless. A baby is an infant/a newborn, a fetus therefor is not a baby.

I'm a nurse and have to clarify the definitions thrown around. First stage is the fertilized egg. The fertilized egg, called a zygote, divides repeatedly as it moves down the fallopian tube to the uterus. First, the zygote becomes a solid ball of cells. Then it becomes a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst.

Inside the uterus, the blastocyst implants in the wall of the uterus, where it develops into an embryo attached to a placenta and surrounded by fluid-filled membranes.

The next stage in development is the embryo At this time, the embryo elongates, first suggesting a human shape. Shortly thereafter, the area that will become the brain and spinal cord (neural tube) begins to develop. The heart and major blood vessels begin to develop earlier—by about day 16. The heart begins to pump fluid through blood vessels by day 20, and the first red blood cells appear the next day. Blood vessels continue to develop in the embryo and placenta.

Almost all organs are completely formed by about 10 weeks after fertilization (which equals 12 weeks of pregnancy). The exceptions are the brain and spinal cord, which continue to form and develop throughout pregnancy. Most malformations (birth defects) occur during the period when organs are forming.

At the end of the 8th week after fertilization (10 weeks of pregnancy), the embryo is considered a fetus By about 24 weeks: The fetus has some chance of survival outside the uterus. Six month of pregnancy.

The third difference between an embryo or fetus and a newborn baby is their place of residence. Embryos and fetuses live inside the womb, and newborn babies live outside the womb.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Again more nonsense, interfering with personal decisions is one thing, these are personal medical decisions where the government has close to ZERO right to interfere and where the likes of you and your pro-life cult have negative a Zillion right to interfere.

Her body her choice and NONE of YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS what she chooses to do with HER WOMB.

Writing words in all capital letters is not an argument.

Also my my argument is not that the government should regulate what a woman does with her womb, only that she is not permitted to kill the distinct human being inside it.

And yes, the killing of another human being without just cause In a society is my business, it’s all of our business.