So, Apparently 'Birth Rape' Is A Thing...

[Ikari]

Physics is dependant on mathematics.

Nein nein nein nein nein! Without Physics, Math has no purpose! It is Math that relies on Physics! Physics is absolute! It relies on nothing! Physics is the only pure science! Soon you will all bow to the superiority of Physics and understand the shortcomings of Chemistry and Biology!

 

[CLAX1911]

Nein nein nein nein nein! Without Physics, Math has no purpose! It is Math that relies on Physics! Physics is absolute! It relies on nothing! Physics is the only pure science! Soon you will all bow to the superiority of Physics and understand the shortcomings of Chemistry and Biology!

Without math physics would not exist.

 

[Ikari]

Without math physics would not exist.

Math is Physics' bitch. Without Physics, Math is just philosophy with no application. Hell Newton even invented Calculus to do Classical Mechanics; no one gave a **** about the matrix and its non-commutative operations til Quantum Mechanics. Math has long been subservient to Physics, and long shall it remain! You'll see! You'll all see! The glory of the True Science will not be denied!

 

[radcen]

Having people hold you down and mutilate your genitals merely for profit or expediency reasons is very rape-y to my mind, and is something that millions of women have been experiencing for decades. I'm perfectly happy to share the term rape with these women. What they go through is horrific. Sadly, it was even worse in previous decades.

If anyone is actually curious about this, there was a reasonably productive thread about it a year or two ago that wasn't started in such bad faith as this one.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/247714-birth-rape.html?highlight=birth+rape

I agree. During the procedure each side should have an attorney present, and consent forms should be read, explained, questions answered, signed, and notarized, before each and every individual action.

Without these reasonable precautions of consent, everybody leaves the room and she's on her own.

 

[TheGoverness]

I agree. During the procedure each side should have an attorney present, and consent forms should be read, explained, questions answered, signed, and notarized, before each and every individual action.

Without these reasonable precautions of consent, everybody leaves the room and she's on her own.

That sounds totally reasonable to me.

 

[CLAX1911]

Math is Physics' bitch. Without Physics, Math is just philosophy with no application. Hell Newton even invented Calculus to do Classical Mechanics; no one gave a **** about the matrix and its non-commutative operations til Quantum Mechanics. Math has long been subservient to Physics, and long shall it remain! You'll see! You'll all see! The glory of the True Science will not be denied!

Without math physics is nothing more than mysticism

 

[Aberration]

Physics is dependant on mathematics.

Actually the opposite is true. We created math to explain our observations. We didn't create any of the sciences to explain math.

Without math physics is nothing more than mysticism

True. But without physics math doesn't exist.


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[CLAX1911]

Actually the opposite is true. We created math to explain our observations. We didn't create any of the sciences to explain math.

Our observations perhaps. Physics also explains them.

True. But without physics math doesn't exist.

So until Isaac Newton came along nobody counted?

 

[Aberration]

Our observations perhaps. Physics also explains them.

Physics employs math in order to explain our observations.

So until Isaac Newton came along nobody counted?

With regards to the science of physics.



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[CLAX1911]

Physics employs math in order to explain our observations.

Yes,thus without mathematics physics would be magic.

With regards to the science of physics.

So 400 years prior to Isaac Newton and our first steps into understanding physics A mediaeval mathematician devised algebra. So that's nothing?

 

[Aberration]

Yes,thus without mathematics physics would be magic.

Magic is fantasy. Physics exists even if we can't accurately describe it.

So 400 years prior to Isaac Newton and our first steps into understanding physics A mediaeval mathematician devised algebra. So that's nothing?

He devised it for a reason. Not for the sake of itself.


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[CLAX1911]

Magic is fantasy. Physics exists even if we can't accurately describe it.

So does mathematics.

He devised it for a reason. Not for the sake of itself.

Not to explain physics. That wouldn't come for another 4 centuries.

 

[jimithyashford]

I mean, come on people.

A vulnerable woman, who is powerless to leave the situation, is at times held down against her will, has strangers looking & touching at private parts of her body, perhaps without appropriate measures being taken to acknowledge her ownership of her body or to preserve her comfort levels. Perhaps she has fingers or instruments inserted without her consent, and sometimes against her consent, invading and crossing decent boundaries. She is fearful of what is happening to her and perhaps for the wellbeing of her baby, and receives no reassurance that either she or her child are ok. That is a violation, no matter how you look at it. Even IF this treatment is given with no malice and the intent of attempting to assist her with birthing her child, there is NEVER a reason to forgo common decencies that will enable her to maintain a role in the birth, some autonomy over her body, to be involved in the decision-making, to be informed about what they want to do BEFORE they do it.

What Is "Birth Rape"? :doh


^Of course, it's Jezebel. It's this kind of **** that makes feminism a laughing stock and does more harm than good. Also, by watering down the term 'rape' they insult true rape victims. I suppose anyone who has had a catheter inserted while unconscious is a 'rape victim.'

Soooo...it sounds like the article is just saying that in the terrifying and painful ordeal of childbirth that the people preforming the birth should do everything in the power to keep the mother informed, to treat her gently, to reassure her, and to explain what is happening or what is about to happen before they just start snipping and prodding away down there.


Why would you have a problem with that? That sounds very reasonable to me and in fact any decent doctor or midwife should probably be doing that anyway? What's the objection?

 

[evaporate]

It's only going to be rape-ish if the woman goes in entirely uninformed and ignorant of her options. Any woman who leaves an uncomplicated pregnancy in the hands of an obstetrician, for example. Doctors are not required unless there is a medical emergency. Ordinary and uncomplicated births should always be in the hands of midwives, and should not involve any interventions (pain meds etc).

 

[Geoist]

Soooo...it sounds like the article is just saying that in the terrifying and painful ordeal of childbirth that the people preforming the birth should do everything in the power to keep the mother informed, to treat her gently, to reassure her, and to explain what is happening or what is about to happen before they just start snipping and prodding away down there.


Why would you have a problem with that? That sounds very reasonable to me and in fact any decent doctor or midwife should probably be doing that anyway? What's the objection?

I never objected to any of those things. Nobody is arguing against giving a woman in labor the best of care.

There is nothing wrong with debating what are the best ways to treat a patient, particularly one about to give birth. The problem I, and others, have is with sensationalism/emotionalism where a nurse/doctor treating the patient is considered the equivalent of a rapist unless they receive explicit permission to do anything. By their standards, I am a rape victim as I once had a catheter inserted while I was unconscious.

 

[jimithyashford]

I never objected to any of those things. Nobody is arguing against giving a woman in labor the best of care.

There is nothing wrong with debating what are the best ways to treat a patient, particularly one about to give birth. The problem I, and others, have is with sensationalism/emotionalism where a nurse/doctor treating the patient is considered the equivalent of a rapist unless they receive explicit permission to do anything. By their standards, I am a rape victim as I once had a catheter inserted while I was unconscious.

Well, yes, if anyone starts cutting or hacking away on your body without your permission that is generally considered a bad thing, and if that cutting and hacking happens to be on your genitals then it certainly has a lot of rapey-vibes to it....does it not?

Now in the case of life saving medical procedures carried out on an unconscious person, there is a legal assumption of consent, which I agree with, which most reasonable people agree with, but that is not what this article was talking about. This article is addressing the very real and surprisingly common occurrences of a terrified woman going to hospital in labor and being rushed through assembly line style by a bunch of people who have her signature on the admission forms and take that as all they need to just start cutting and slicing and probing and not explaining anything or answering questions and generally acting as if the woman attached to the baby is just a loud nuisance instead of a scared and confused person that painful things are happening to. And it doesn't require very much empathy or a particularly long stretch of the imagination to understand how that might feel very much like rape, thus the article is imploring medical professionals to remember that and alter their behavior in what seems to be a very reasonable manner to not be that way.

What is objectionable about that?

I mean if you just specifically have an objection to people saying that it is very much like rape to be hurt and sacred and confused and have a bunch of strangers grabbing you and hurting you and poking around down between your legs, then I dunno what to tell you, I've never been raped and just basic human empathy tells me right away that such an experience would feel very rape-esque.

 

[evaporate]

Any woman who goes into childbirth not knowing what might happen, and why, is asking for this particular type of 'rape'. And no, it's not an Obstetrician's job to inform their clients .. they usually prefer their clients uninformed and suggestible, because they're much easier to steer towards a section. Obs very often prefer sectioning, because it's quicker, predictable, and a controlled environment. Also, far more lucrative!

Stick to midwives, and understand what's happening with your body. Don't ask (or beg) for any interventions beyond a warm bath. Take control, ask people to leave the room (including your midwife) if that feels better. Turn the lights off. Ask for silence/music/whatever makes it better for you. YOU are in control of the show, and medical personal are simply there for possible 'issues'. If you must have a midwife remain with you, use her as your breathing coach or whatever. She cannot (and most never would) tell you what to do if things are progressing normally. It's your birth, do it your way (again, assuming an ordinary event without complications).

 

[Geoist]

Well, yes, if anyone starts cutting or hacking away on your body without your permission that is generally considered a bad thing, and if that cutting and hacking happens to be on your genitals then it certainly has a lot of rapey-vibes to it....does it not?

"Cutting and hacking."

You don't work in the medical field, do you?

Now in the case of life saving medical procedures carried out on an unconscious person, there is a legal assumption of consent, which I agree with, which most reasonable people agree with, but that is not what this article was talking about. This article is addressing the very real and surprisingly common occurrences of a terrified woman going to hospital in labor and being rushed through assembly line style by a bunch of people who have her signature on the admission forms and take that as all they need to just start cutting and slicing and probing and not explaining anything or answering questions and generally acting as if the woman attached to the baby is just a loud nuisance instead of a scared and confused person that painful things are happening to. And it doesn't require very much empathy or a particularly long stretch of the imagination to understand how that might feel very much like rape, thus the article is imploring medical professionals to remember that and alter their behavior in what seems to be a very reasonable manner to not be that way.

While I do not disagree there are many problems with how hospitals are run and how they treat their patients, to sensationalize the experience and call it 'rape' is an insult to rape victims.

What is objectionable about that?

My objection is not over the criticism of hospitals (I have many of my own). My criticism is over people insensitively watering down terms.

I mean if you just specifically have an objection to people saying that it is very much like rape to be hurt and sacred and confused and have a bunch of strangers grabbing you and hurting you and poking around down between your legs, then I dunno what to tell you, I've never been raped and just basic human empathy tells me right away that such an experience would feel very rape-esque.

I have had testicular torsion and major surgeries. I know what it is like to be prodded and poked by doctors. I also have family/friends who have been actually raped. I would never ever compare my experience to theirs.

 

[jimithyashford]

"Cutting and hacking."

You don't work in the medical field, do you?



While I do not disagree there are many problems with how hospitals are run and how they treat their patients, to sensationalize the experience and call it 'rape' is an insult to rape victims.



My objection is not over the criticism of hospitals (I have many of my own). My criticism is over people insensitively watering down terms.




I have had testicular torsion and major surgeries. I know what it is like to be prodded and poked by doctors. I also have family/friends who have been actually raped. I would never ever compare my experience to theirs.

I dunno what to tell you then man. If I was hurt and scared and probably something akin to panicked and I was grabbed up by a group of strangers that started doing painful things between my legs with little explanation or preface, I can very easily see how that experience could feel very much like rape. It does not at all seem like a stretch of the imagination to me. You certainly don't have to personally agree, you are, by all means, within your right to say that YOU don't see how it would feel that way, but you certainly have no grounds to tell these women who are professing that it does feel that way to them, that in fact they are incorrect about their own subjective experience and need to describe it in terms you agree with....that's nonsense.

If I were you, if a woman told me she went through an experience that felt very much like rape, I would not scoff and tell her "no you didn't", I would take her at her word that what she just experienced made her feel assaulted and victimized, and I would take a second look at that experience and how to make it not feel that way to other women in the future, rather than lambasting them for using terms you dont like to describe their subjective experience.

Jesus man, if a woman tells you that she just had an experience that felt like rape and your first reaction is not "what can be done to change that situation" but rather to argue with her about whether or not it did feel like rape to her....then you have your priorities exactly backwards.

 

[CLAX1911]

I dunno what to tell you then man. If I was hurt and scared and probably something akin to panicked and I was grabbed up by a group of strangers that started doing painful things between my legs with little explanation or preface, I can very easily see how that experience could feel very much like rape. It does not at all seem like a stretch of the imagination to me. You certainly don't have to personally agree, you are, by all means, within your right to say that YOU don't see how it would feel that way, but you certainly have no grounds to tell these women who are professing that it does feel that way to them, that in fact they are incorrect about their own subjective experience and need to describe it in terms you agree with....that's nonsense.

If I were you, if a woman told me she went through an experience that felt very much like rape, I would not scoff and tell her "no you didn't", I would take her at her word that what she just experienced made her feel assaulted and victimized, and I would take a second look at that experience and how to make it not feel that way to other women in the future, rather than lambasting them for using terms you dont like to describe their subjective experience.

Jesus man, if a woman tells you that she just had an experience that felt like rape and your first reaction is not "what can be done to change that situation" but rather to argue with her about whether or not it did feel like rape to her....then you have your priorities exactly backwards.

Yeah, that's how fake rape allegations destroy people's lives

 

[jimithyashford]

Yeah, that's how fake rape allegations destroy people's lives

I started to type about 5 different replies to this and then just gave up because I don't think I understand your reply.

So just to clarify. This article and this conversation is not literally talking about actual criminal rape. This article is referring to an experience that feels like rape/has alarming similarities to rape, not in a legal sense but in an experiential sense, and is not at all talking about pressing criminal charges against anyone or ruining anyone's career. It's talking about taking more care with patients, particularly when they are in pain and panicked and you are a stranger doing painful things to their genitals, so as to make that experience not quite so terrifying and violating.

That seems extremely reasonable to me, I would certainly appreciate that consideration were I a woman giving birth. And I was expressing to the other commentor that when these women tell us that this experience feels very violating and scary and rapey, instead of telling them they are wrong in how they say it felt to them, that it seems much more reasonable and appropriate to listen to the complaint and make the moderate and perfectly reasonable changes being asked to make that experience a better one.

I am really perplexed at how anyone could object to the extremely reasonable requests this article is making in response to easily understood and wholly justifiable concerns.

 

[CLAX1911]

I started to type about 5 different replies to this and then just gave up because I don't think I understand your reply.

So just to clarify. This article and this conversation is not literally talking about actual criminal rape. This article is referring to an experience that feels like rape/has alarming similarities to rape, not in a legal sense but in an experiential sense, and is not at all talking about pressing criminal charges against anyone or ruining anyone's career. It's talking about taking more care with patients, particularly when they are in pain and panicked and you are a stranger doing painful things to their genitals, so as to make that experience not quite so terrifying and violating.

That seems extremely reasonable to me, I would certainly appreciate that consideration were I a woman giving birth. And I was expressing to the other commentor that when these women tell us that this experience feels very violating and scary and rapey, instead of telling them they are wrong in how they say it felt to them, that it seems much more reasonable and appropriate to listen to the complaint and make the moderate and perfectly reasonable changes being asked to make that experience a better one.

I am really perplexed at how anyone could object to the extremely reasonable requests this article is making in response to easily understood and wholly justifiable concerns.

My apologies. I took exception to where you said that if a woman claims to have been raped you would believe her. That's bias. The claim should be taken seriously and it should be investigated but nobody should be believed until the facts are in.

By saying you'd believe a woman based on her accusation you are saying that you wouldn't believe a man who denies it. Of course guilty men deny things but innocent men do as well. This is why things need to be investigated before anybody can be believed.

As far as "birth rape" is concerned, I'd stand by the position that it may be true but I'm not going to take someone's word for it. Produce evidence and then we'll talk.

 

[jimithyashford]

My apologies. I took exception to where you said that if a woman claims to have been raped you would believe her. That's bias. The claim should be taken seriously and it should be investigated but nobody should be believed until the facts are in.

By saying you'd believe a woman based on her accusation you are saying that you wouldn't believe a man who denies it. Of course guilty men deny things but innocent men do as well. This is why things need to be investigated before anybody can be believed.

As far as "birth rape" is concerned, I'd stand by the position that it may be true but I'm not going to take someone's word for it. Produce evidence and then we'll talk.

I still don't think you are grasping the jist of the conversation. This article and conversation is not talking about literal rape. It is talking about busy hospitals that preform births assembly-line style being impersonal the terrifying experiences for a woman who on that day, if on any day, should be treated with particular care and thoughtfulness. It is referring to the fact that in many cases once the hospital consent forms are signed, the woman is shuffled off through a gauntlet of strangers in masks who don't explain anything, don't ask permission for anything, who are poking and cutting and prodding around her genitals while she is scared and in pain, and how that whole impersonal and violating experience can feel like rape, or can be painfully reminiscent of rape. And it is imploring the medical profession to slow down, remember that there is a scared person attached to that womb, and that she should be informed and made aware of what is happening and should be ok with any new step or method that needs to be taken even if there is a blanket consent form already signed and in place.

This is not about taking her word that she WAS raped, this is about taking her word for it that the process felt very violating like rape, and to take steps to make the experience less like that. And that seems very reasonable to me.

 

[radcen]

I started to type about 5 different replies to this and then just gave up because I don't think I understand your reply.

So just to clarify. This article and this conversation is not literally talking about actual criminal rape. This article is referring to an experience that feels like rape/has alarming similarities to rape, not in a legal sense but in an experiential sense, and is not at all talking about pressing criminal charges against anyone or ruining anyone's career. It's talking about taking more care with patients, particularly when they are in pain and panicked and you are a stranger doing painful things to their genitals, so as to make that experience not quite so terrifying and violating.

That seems extremely reasonable to me, I would certainly appreciate that consideration were I a woman giving birth. And I was expressing to the other commentor that when these women tell us that this experience feels very violating and scary and rapey, instead of telling them they are wrong in how they say it felt to them, that it seems much more reasonable and appropriate to listen to the complaint and make the moderate and perfectly reasonable changes being asked to make that experience a better one.

I am really perplexed at how anyone could object to the extremely reasonable requests this article is making in response to easily understood and wholly justifiable concerns.

Equating birth to rape is destructive hyperbole. The physical aspects *may be* similar, but the intent, and especially the emotional impact, is not. Rape is far more than merely physical. By equating the two with words you are actually cheapening the emotional impact of rape, and dismissing the victim's concerns.

Generic 'you'.

 

[CLAX1911]

I still don't think you are grasping the jist of the conversation.

I still take exception to what you said.

This article and conversation is not talking about literal rape. It is talking about busy hospitals that preform births assembly-line style being impersonal the terrifying experiences for a woman who on that day, if on any day, should be treated with particular care and thoughtfulness. It is referring to the fact that in many cases once the hospital consent forms are signed, the woman is shuffled off through a gauntlet of strangers in masks who don't explain anything, don't ask permission for anything, who are poking and cutting and prodding around her genitals while she is scared and in pain, and how that whole impersonal and violating experience can feel like rape, or can be painfully reminiscent of rape. And it is imploring the medical profession to slow down, remember that there is a scared person attached to that womb, and that she should be informed and made aware of what is happening and should be ok with any new step or method that needs to be taken even if there is a blanket consent form already signed and in place.

I still took exception to something you said regardless of this.

This is not about taking her word that she WAS raped, this is about taking her word for it that the process felt very violating like rape, and to take steps to make the experience less like that. And that seems very reasonable to me.

sure.