Should the AZ shooter have been able to buy a gun?

[Slartibartfast]

I am with you to a point. But I think there needs to be some mechanism to keep the mentally unstable from buying weapons.

There already is one, but we cannot simply take the rights away from people without due process. If we lose presumption of innocence, which is a basic level of trust for our society, then everyone becomes suspect and then how do we proceed when everyone is suspect?

 

[Manc Skipper]

Well now lets see...whenh he walked into the gun store was he spouting moonbat left wing hate filled rhetoric? Was he announcing his intentions? Or was he behaving in a manner that most people would consider 'normal'.

Golly...if we knew then what we know now...IMAGINE what we could change.

Right wing hate rhetoric is no bar to gun ownership?

If the Army doesn't trust you with a gun, shouldn't that bar you from civilian access?

 

[tlmorg02]

There already is one, but we cannot simply take the rights away from people without due process. If we lose presumption of innocence, which is a basic level of trust for our society, then everyone becomes suspect and then how do we proceed when everyone is suspect?

Of course, the problem is that there was multiple times this man's mental state was questioned. However, he was able to purchase the gun and go on a murder spree. What about the rights and due process of the victims.

 

[Black Dog]

Right wing hate rhetoric is no bar to gun ownership?

Unsubstantiated partisan rhetoric. Talk about hypocritical.

If the Army doesn't trust you with a gun, shouldn't that bar you from civilian access?

He was barred for failing a drug test. He smoked weed. This does not exactly make you a threat.

 

[tlmorg02]

I hear ya... but define "mentally unstable".

Is a vet with PTSD mentally unstable?
What about someone who just has occasional anxiety attacks?

Drawing the line could be quite tricky... and there's the question of violating doctor-patient confidentiality, unless the Dr actually thinks the patient is dangerous.

A person who displays paranoia, psychotic tendies, and in this case was rejected from the military on mental fitness, kicked out of school for being a threatening nut.... To me that should be the kinds of things that are reported on a background check.

 

[Black Dog]

Of course, the problem is that there was multiple times this man's mental state was questioned. However, he was able to purchase the gun and go on a murder spree. What about the rights and due process of the victims.

Not really. His mental state was officially questioned at his school. Since he was not committed to a mental institution no reason legally exists for him not to buy a gun. The victims had no right to due process before the shooting as no crime had been committed.

 

[Black Dog]

A person who displays paranoia, psychotic tendies, and in this case was rejected from the military on mental fitness, kicked out of school for being a threatening nut.... To me that should be the kinds of things that are reported on a background check.

He was not rejected for "mental fitness" he failed the drug test.

 

[tlmorg02]

Not really. His mental state was officially questioned at his school. Since he was not committed to a mental institution no reason legally exists for him not to buy a gun. The victims had no right to due process before the shooting as no crime had been committed.

Apparently in his eyes they had comitted a crime, and he was judge, jury, and executioner. But we are certainly worried about his due process.

 

[tlmorg02]

He was not rejected for "mental fitness" he failed the drug test.

Sorry about that. I read that just now.

 

[Chappy]

I think there should be a higher barrier to purchasing a handgun than simply a valid state-issued ID card, a willingness to check a box that says you're not mentally unstable and an insta-check of a woefully incomplete database. Waiting periods, training certificates and medical certificates seem all very appropriate and necessary to me. And of course, high capacity magazines should be right out of discussion altogether.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Of course, the problem is that there was multiple times this man's mental state was questioned. However, he was able to purchase the gun and go on a murder spree. What about the rights and due process of the victims.

But it was not questioned legally. That is the key. Heck, I question several people's sanity, but I have no legal power to declare them insane. If I did, the white vans would be going for Bauchmann right now for example.

As for the rights of the victims, some jerk just killed them and therefore deserves to go to jail.

 

[Ikari]

Right wing hate rhetoric is no bar to gun ownership?

If the Army doesn't trust you with a gun, shouldn't that bar you from civilian access?

Nope, not in the least. There could be various reasons why the military doesn't want someone. They don't give you a card that reads "Rejected because he can't be trusted with a gun". If you are refused by the military, that is no reason to infringe upon the rights of the individual. If you want to enact government force against the rights and liberties of the individual, you have to prove something in court first. You just can't go off of your assumptions about a particular outcome; particularly when viewing from hindsight.

 

[Black Dog]

Apparently in his eyes they had comitted a crime, and he was judge, jury, and executioner. But we are certainly worried about his due process.

Yes and we should be. In this country you are presumed innocent until proved guilty. I mean we all know he did it, but the law must be evenly applied to everyone.

 

[jamesrage]

I think there should be a higher barrier to purchasing a handgun than simply a valid state-issued ID card, a willingness to check a box that says you're not mentally unstable and an insta-check of a woefully incomplete database. Waiting periods, training certificates and medical certificates seem all very appropriate and necessary to me. And of course, high capacity magazines should be right out of discussion altogether.

Of course you do, you do not think the people should have the right to bear arms.

 

[tlmorg02]

Yes and we should be. In this country you are presumed innocent until proved guilty. I mean we all know he did it, but the law must be evenly applied to everyone.

I disagree. If someone is as blantantly guilty as this, they should be executed immediately.

 

[Black Dog]

I disagree. If someone is as blantantly guilty as this, they should be executed immediately.

That is not how our system works. It would make us no better than the Taliban for instance.

 

[tlmorg02]

That is not how our system works. It would make us no better than the Taliban for instance.

Can there be any question that he perpetraited the crime? And it would still make us a far cry from the Taliban.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Can there be any question that he perpetraited the crime? And it would still make us a far cry from the Taliban.

The lack of question makes the trial a slam dunk.

 

[Psychoclown]

I hear ya... but define "mentally unstable".

Is a vet with PTSD mentally unstable?
What about someone who just has occasional anxiety attacks?

Drawing the line could be quite tricky... and there's the question of violating doctor-patient confidentiality, unless the Dr actually thinks the patient is dangerous.

Thank you for pointing this out.

The shooter was obviously mentally unstable and was able to buy a gun legally. I can see how that concerns people. But the trick is finding a solution that deals with the issue without simultaniously trampling on the rights (both of privacy in terms of doctor patient info and the 2nd amendment) of thousands of completely innocent and harmless people.

Freedom requires a degree of risk. Unfortunately that risk sometimes has tragic consequences. What happened in Arizonia was one of those times.

 

[tlmorg02]

The lack of question makes the trial a slam dunk.

I know, it just pisses me off that there are those who would stand-up for a child and mass murderer.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I know, it just pisses me off that there are those who would stand-up for a child and mass murderer.

I know it seems that way, but in reality I am trying to stand up for you and me. Whatever laws we change will affect us too and the last thing we need is more legislation like the patriot act.

 

[Psychoclown]

I know it seems that way, but in reality I am trying to stand up for you and me. Whatever laws we change will affect us too and the last thing we need is more legislation like the patriot act.

Exactly, its not about standing up for the mass murdering scumbag. It's about standing up for the rule of law that guarantees all of us a fair trial rather than a summary execution.

 

[Ikari]

I disagree. If someone is as blantantly guilty as this, they should be executed immediately.

No, never! First off, we shouldn't use the death penalty. Secondly, there MUST be a trial. A man has the right to trial by a jury of peers; and that's what he should get. Anything else is unacceptable.

 

[Ikari]

I know it seems that way, but in reality I am trying to stand up for you and me. Whatever laws we change will affect us too and the last thing we need is more legislation like the patriot act.

Oh, I'm all for getting RID of legislation. Particularly things like the Patriot Act and the Real ID Act. Flush it down the toliet. We need less laws, not more.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Oh, I'm all for getting RID of legislation. Particularly things like the Patriot Act and the Real ID Act. Flush it down the toliet. We need less laws, not more.

I certainly agree we need to get rid of those two things.