Should schools push physical math more

[Dragonfly]

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

 

[JMaximus]

Depends on what you do on whether you use basic math or not. What brought up this thread was an old teacher/machinist who made videos my coworker showed me, the guy even went into detail about how middle school dropouts in and before ww2 had better math skills and could do the most complex calcs without getting a diploma while college grads have a lesser understanding of math today.

Basically most math today is done by computer, the people running it have no idea. Imagine being a middle school dropout and getting a job by the time of ww2 making rifles and having to understand exact maths, fractions, algebra and trigenometry to an exact degree to operate fully manual machines. It was to the point most of those people could literally do it, and operate those machines to precision without a calculator or google. I feel this may be the biggest killer of manufacturing, that what was once common education is now reserved for the highest levels of paid learning, and those highest levels are still pale in comparison to what was once taught as basic education.

Why fill space in your brain with skills easily automated?

Leave the grunt work to the machines and devote your mind to higher purposes.

 

[BahamaBob]

Why fill space in your brain with skills easily automated?

Leave the grunt work to the machines and devote your mind to higher purposes.

What do you consider "higher purposes"?

 

[JMaximus]

What do you consider "higher purposes"?

Solving problems that can't be solved by machines.

 

[Waddy]

Automotive went to hell, most new people are either parts changers or straight up jump ship. Tried some new guys at the shop I work for, things like remove bellhousing bolts last not first and disconnect the battery before you remove anything electrical especially computers and starters seemed foreign to them. It gets worse as trying to train them it goes over their heads. It gets even worse at diagnostic, if a computer fails xyz mechanic replaces it, it fails 6 more times under warranty and gets replaced six more times, but they never stop to wonder maybe there is a reason, critical thinking skills went out the window, people just want answers not how they got them or what everything inbetween means.


For example a for escape can fry a computer from a bad coil, change the computer and it runs okish for a few months then it is back, if it fries the driver for coils or injectors, logic would say to investigate the systems tied to that driver on the computer, not just throw a new one on and hope it works because they do not understand the system but someone on youtube told them it fixes it.

Funny you should mention UTube. So may people go there for technical instruction these days. Because they were never trained properly, or are INCAPABLE of being trained. And 90% of the "instruction" on UTube is either incorrect or superficial. Most problem solving requires IN DEPTH knowledge of the subject. Mechanics of any kind is 99% diagnosis. Knowing which part to change and WHY. After that, almost anyone can change a part. 10 minutes on Utube does not make a person an expert.

 

[beerftw]

Why fill space in your brain with skills easily automated?

Leave the grunt work to the machines and devote your mind to higher purposes.

Large amount of tasks can not be replaced by a machine, including making those machines, we are hitting a point where the entire american standard of living may not exist in decades as we are running out of people capable of designing, producing and repairing everything that makes our lives easy.


Machining for example can not be fully automated, things like machining from billet can, however when it comes to machining castings, there are often too many variables, and needs human input and math to work. In automotive it is common for a human to inspect castings after machining and use selectives to cure any issues, like for example xyz engine was machines 10 thousandths off due to the start point in the casting and casting variables, causing the cam to walk too much, but shim xyz can be used as a selective spacer to bring it to proper clearance on the thrust end, and bearing xyz selecting can bring it to spec on the radial end.

 

[CLAX1911]

Seriously, why does it matter how we write or compute when we can utilize technology to gain information?

If technology is computing it for you, you are not. So are you really understanding it? If you can't understand it then you can't explain why it works.

 

[CLAX1911]

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

I didn't realize dial calipers have falling off so much but then again there are digital calipers and I guess that's what people use instead.

I'm surprised with how many people don't know how to do math with fractions.

 

[Parrish]

If technology is computing it for you, you are not. So are you really understanding it? If you can't understand it then you can't explain why it works.

:roll:

 

[CLAX1911]

:roll:

Is what I said wrong?

 

[BahamaBob]

Solving problems that can't be solved by machines.

How is that possible if all you know is to operate machines?

 

[JMaximus]

How is that possible if all you know is to operate machines?

It's not.

So learn to do something other than just operate machines.

 

[BahamaBob]

It's not.

So learn to do something other than just operate machines.

You are the one who thinks learning is stupid when it can be done by machine. That is an attitude expressed by many who are not capable of absorbing complicated subjects.

 

[JMaximus]

You are the one who thinks learning is stupid when it can be done by machine. That is an attitude expressed by many who are not capable of absorbing complicated subjects.

I have no doubt that many attitudes are expressed by all sorts of people with differing intellectual abilities. For example, roaring on about wanting recognition of one's ability to do slowly and with difficulty what a machine can do quickly and easily is often the position of close-minded luddites scornful of a world in which their cherished skills have become relegated to the status of undignified drudgery and in replacement of which they have nothing to offer society.

But instead of lobbing insults (you see I've many in my quiver), let's focus on the topic and the arguments and not those making them.

There is simply no reason to waste our children's time teaching them to do things machines can easily do instead when almost every American leaves high school utterly incapable of exercising even basic human faculties such as simple problem-solving, critical thinking, calm tempers, and empathy.

If you enjoy these other things (and many do, myself included), then take them up as a hobby - but don't throw a damn tantrum when local educators aren't prepared to give your hobby a revered place in an already full curriculum failing to keep up as it is.

 

[JMaximus]

Cursive is actually an important skill, it is a form of scriptive writing, much like calligraphy and other script, and I dread the day we need to find the 90+ age bracket survivors to translate text on nuclear reactors because all the workers in xyz plant could not understand the ancient scribbles of the engineer who built it.

Why are we building nuclear reactors with no other plans besides those sketched out on paper by a lone engineer?

Or maybe we aren't....

 

[JMaximus]

Learning math teaches students how to be a problem solver.

Or maybe people naturally adept at problem solving are better at math...?

 

[JMaximus]

I think its important to be able to do a fair amount of math in your head. Pushing buttons on calculators or computers is less likely to give you that ability... so, I still believe in showing people how do math the old way.

What is "the old way"?

 

[upsideguy]

What is "the old way"?

Understanding how to add, subtract, multiply and divide without the use of calculators.

 

[beerftw]

Why are we building nuclear reactors with no other plans besides those sketched out on paper by a lone engineer?

Or maybe we aren't....

Who said just building, however in building one you will see handwritten notes used especially when changes occur during construction.

If you never see hand wrotten notes, that literally means you work a desk or retail job and assume because your job does not use them no one does but guess what I still use it daily, it is impossible for me to rely on anything digital unless I sit in the back room and never leave, and given my job is not sitting infront of a computer all day and instead always hopping around I need to rely on pen and paper, as I already carry enough electronic devices as it is just to do my job.

 

[beerftw]

Or maybe people naturally adept at problem solving are better at math...?

Not quite, people need to tune their brains to handle problem solving, math is a large part of both problem solving and tuning their brains to adapt. If brains can not adapt and learn and only get taught to do what they need for basic jobs then humanity walks backwards.

100 years ago education was good but people dreamed they could financially stay in school instead of hitting the workforce as dropouts, 400 years ago much of the world was illiterate, could barely count past ten, but still had the skills to do their jobs. Those people then even with the skills to get a job many dreamed of getting better education, and when better education came tech advanced faster than any time in recorded history. Avoiding basics in math writing sciece etc or what some here call simplifying their lives is just going back to the 400 year ago thoughts of you do not need to read or write to operate a plow, how people just wish to revert backwards and never think how tech we have came from education, and when you cut back on education future generations will not be able to repair or replace this tech let alone innovate it.

 

[JMaximus]

Understanding how to add, subtract, multiply and divide without the use of calculators.

What would be used instead?

 

[JMaximus]

Who said just building, however in building one you will see handwritten notes used especially when changes occur during construction.

If you never see hand wrotten notes, that literally means you work a desk or retail job and assume because your job does not use them no one does but guess what I still use it daily, it is impossible for me to rely on anything digital unless I sit in the back room and never leave, and given my job is not sitting infront of a computer all day and instead always hopping around I need to rely on pen and paper, as I already carry enough electronic devices as it is just to do my job.

You rely on electronic devices to do your job?

 

[upsideguy]

What would be used instead?

Are you serious? We did math for centuries before calculators. You do not need a calculator (nor anything else save a piece of paper and pencil) to add, subtract, multiply or divide (or most other math operations).

 

[JMaximus]

... future generations will not be able to repair or replace this tech let alone innovate it.

Exactly the opposite is true: by not wasting all their precious time mastering pointless tasks today's and future generations will be more - not less - equipped to repair current technology and to innovate and solve the problems of tomorrow and beyond.

 

[JMaximus]

You do not need a calculator (nor anything else save a piece of paper and pencil) to add, subtract, multiply or divide (or most other math operations).

No, but those things make doing the math much easier and quicker, thus freeing people's time to do other productive things not yet automated.