Should schools push physical math more

[joko104]

I've noticed how many cashiers can not do simple math with money. For example, if the total is $11.97 and I give the cashier $22.00, commonly they'll try to give the two $1s back. When I explain "I want a ten, $10.00 and 3 cents" - most then have to use the cash register to figure it out. Even counting coins seems a challenge to some - working as cashiers.

 

[Josie]

I thought its main use now is to teach fine motor skills and hand-eye coordination.

Any activity that requires the student to hold something tightly in their hands and move their pencil, crayon, pen in a certain way teaches that. Printing, coloring, drawing, tracing. Using a stylus on a tablet teaches fine motor and hand-eye coordination skills too. Picking up tiny objects with tweezers also does that. Cutting and gluing too.

Cursive handwriting is a creative form of writing -- not an essential form of writing.

 

[Felis Leo]

Cursive isn't an important skill to learn anymore. -- an elementary teacher

True, Josie. But neither is music, art, theatre, history, or reading literature or poetry. Rather, these are things that furnish the mind with beauty. I am happy that I learned cursive among the rest of the former. I think learning it enriched my life, as did all of these other "non-essential" skills.

 

[ajn678]

I've noticed how many cashiers can not do simple math with money. For example, if the total is $11.97 and I give the cashier $22.00, commonly they'll try to give the two $1s back. When I explain "I want a ten, $10.00 and 3 cents" - most then have to use the cash register to figure it out. Even counting coins seems a challenge to some - working as cashiers.

Gee who would think someone potentially making $7.25 per hour would not be quick on their feet with math.

 

[Josie]

True, Josie. But neither is music, art, theatre, history, or reading literature or poetry.

Creating music, art, theatre, writing fictional stories or poetry aren't essential skills for most. Not sure why history is in there -- it's not a creative genre.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Fyi going into space was done by people writing in cursive and using slide rules, so clearly it is not obsolete since some nation even with modern tech can not do the same.

They were not HS dropouts.

 

[Felis Leo]

Creating music, art, theatre, writing fictional stories or poetry aren't essential skills for most.

Who are they essential for, in your opinion? Especially if a child is never introduced to this in the first place to see if they have an appreciation, interest or talent in fine arts? Especially if schools cut these programs and no one except the wealthy have access to extracurricular classes to teach their children the fine arts, or at the very least instill and appreciation for them?

Not sure why history is in there -- it's not a creative genre.

Well, because learning our shared history is not "essential." It is no more essential than learning to read Shakespeare.

 

[btthegreat]

Any activity that requires the student to hold something tightly in their hands and move their pencil, crayon, pen in a certain way teaches that. Printing, coloring, drawing, tracing. Using a stylus on a tablet teaches fine motor and hand-eye coordination skills too. Picking up tiny objects with tweezers also does that. Cutting and gluing too.

Cursive handwriting is a creative form of writing -- not an essential form of writing.

I was just reading up on this in wiki.

"In a 2007 survey of 200 teachers of first through third grades in all 50 American states, 90 percent of respondents said their schools required the teaching of cursive.[18]
A 2008 nationwide survey found elementary school teachers lacking formal training in teaching handwriting to students. Only 12 percent of teachers reported having taken a course in how to teach it.[19]
In 2012, the American states of Indiana and Hawaii announced that their schools will no longer be required to teach cursive (but will still be permitted to), and instead will be required to teach "keyboard proficiency". Since the nationwide proposal of the Common Core State Standards in 2009, which do not include instruction in cursive, the standards have been adopted by 44 states as of July 2011, all of which have debated whether to augment them with cursive.[20][21]

Now that data is over a decade old.

 

[Josie]

Who are they essential for?

Those who choose to make the creative arts a career choice.

Well, because history is not "essential." It is no more essential than learning to read Shakespeare.

That's just silliness.

 

[Josie]

I was just reading up on this in wiki.

"In a 2007 survey of 200 teachers of first through third grades in all 50 American states, 90 percent of respondents said their schools required the teaching of cursive.[18]
A 2008 nationwide survey found elementary school teachers lacking formal training in teaching handwriting to students. Only 12 percent of teachers reported having taken a course in how to teach it.[19]
In 2012, the American states of Indiana and Hawaii announced that their schools will no longer be required to teach cursive (but will still be permitted to), and instead will be required to teach "keyboard proficiency". Since the nationwide proposal of the Common Core State Standards in 2009, which do not include instruction in cursive, the standards have been adopted by 44 states as of July 2011, all of which have debated whether to augment them with cursive.[20][21]

Now that data is over a decade old.

Keyboarding skills are a much more important skill for kids to learn than cursive handwriting since the vast majority of their writing in school and in their jobs will be typed.

 

[Josie]

I think beerftw (and probably others) would be surprised to hear that many students in America are learning math using an abacus (now called a Rekenrek).

 

[btthegreat]

Keyboarding skills are a much more important skill for kids to learn than cursive handwriting since the vast majority of their writing in school and in their jobs will be typed.

Oh I agree. And we can take those hours teaching dated math or cursive to teach them a second language earlier ?

 

[Felis Leo]

Those who choose to make the creative arts a career choice.

How would children know if they are not given the opportunity to learn basic artistic skills or art appreciation, in your opinion? Besides being born to parents with artistic appreciation and/or to wealthier parents who can pay for their children to take such classes, when a school cuts all art and music classes, to where would poorer students turn?

That's just silliness.

Why so? In what way would you say learning history is essential if the only thing that school is for is to keep children off the streets while their parents are at work and teach them basic academic skills to ready them for the job market? How is it any more essential than reading Shakespeare's plays or W.B. Yeat's poetry?*

*By the way, I think all of these skills are essential for helping children's minds develop and to help them think and to unite them with an understanding of shared history in order to make them better citizens. I do not consider any part of education unnecessary detritus.

 

[Josie]

Oh I agree. And we can take those hours teaching dated math or cursive to teach them a second language earlier ?

Agreed --- but only for those who have mastered those basic skills. I've witnessed schools trying to teach kids to be bilingual from an early age and, as a result, some kids never master either language, get very confused and fall farther behind. They need to work on English and then move on to another language once they're able to read and write well.

 

[Josie]

How would children know if they are not given the opportunity to learn basic artistic skills or art appreciation, in your opinion? Besides being born to parents with artistic appreciation and/or to wealthier parents who can pay for their children to take such classes, when a school cuts all art and music classes, to where would poorer students turn?

I've never said kids shouldn't have music or art classes. I'm talking about when these kids get into high school and college. Creating a piece of art shouldn't be a required assignment for those kids who have chosen a career path that isn't in the artistic direction. Students who are planning on becoming mechanics or doctors or engineers or social workers shouldn't be required to write a 5-page science fiction story.

Why so? In what way would you say learning history is essential if the only thing that school is for is to keep children off the streets while their parents are at work and teach them basic academic skills to ready them for the job market? How is it any more essential than reading Shakespeare's plays or W.B. Yeat's poetry?

Again -- I never said these words that it seems like you're assuming I said or am thinking.

History isn't fiction. It can and does, therefore, tie into everyone's lives. Learning basic history, cultures and traditions is essential to understanding and communicating with people around you.

You don't need to know what Macbeth's wife said on page 73 in any job.

 

[joko104]

Gee who would think someone potentially making $7.25 per hour would not be quick on their feet with math.

Nearly everyone has to start somewhere. Doesn't mean they can't learn simple math for something they do daily - ie deal with money personally and professionally.

 

[BahamaBob]

I have a friend who is the senior partner in a large law firm. They employ over 400 lawyers. While working with him, I noted that all his lawyers were very competent. I mentioned this when I was talking with him and asked him what skills he looked for in new hires. He told me Math and English Comp. I asked him why. He told me that people with strong math skills know how to solve problems and look at details. He said English Comp. skills allow them to put what they know in an easily understood format. I know many Fortune 500 companies like Berkshire Hathaway require all their management applicants to pass a basic math test. 70% of today's college grads can't.

Learning math teaches students how to be a problem solver. John Kennedy said it best. "We don't do it because it is easy, we do it because it is hard." Students need to be pressed.

 

[trouble13]

Should we push it more? I have noticed cursive is becoming a foreign language, however That is an observation and this is on math. I work in an industry that thrived for almor 3/4 a century on fractionals, slide rulers and dial calipers and micrometers.

I accidentally knocked over locktite on my lyman dial caliper, I asked for another one from the matco truck and the guy had to dig and admitted no one buys those anymore or even knows how to read them, I could not understand why, the layout is simple in a dial, much easier than the vernier calipers I learned on, I am not even that old, only 33 yet I have watched entire sets of tools and math dissapear, I can only imagine how grumpy the seniors must be at this point.

Another one I dealt with was customers would bring middle school aged kids with them when waiting on repairs, I always lose it when I hear what do those hands mean and why does that clock not just say the time in straight numbers, I mean it is in fractions of 5 people between numbers, how hard is that?


Another one was doing multiplication and division without a calculator, I still can not fathom graduation highschool without doing this on paper, when I went through it was mandatory, if you could not do this without a calculator you were doomed to be a ditch digger at best, now it seems everyone comes out like this, like standards were dumbed down with the assumption tech will wipe your a## for you and knowledge is a waste of time.


I think we need to bring back more hard math, hand writing on paper, using a slide rule and understanding dials guages fractions etc as it seems like at the current rate we might have to start importing people from other nations to do even the most basic of tasks due to how bad basic skills are being sidelined for tech, remember tech is only as good as those who create it and work on it, if the tech is smarter than those who use it it is doomed to fail.

I hear tje argument your making from many people and i completely disagree with it. Yes its important to understand mathematical principles but using technology for accurate mechanics is acceptable and imho perferred.

The less your burdened with mundane tasks the more your freed to engage yourself in more advanced endeavors. For instance you dont need to know how to hunt and butcher animals because technology has freed from that burden. Math isnt much different. I dont need to know simple arithmetic to do advanced calculations because i have a calculator.

It does not mean we are dumber. We are freer to pursue things that we once could not. Your criticism is of mankinds achievements.

The wright brothers began flight with a biwing single engined propeller plane, now we have pilots who operate rockets into outerspace and back. One day we may have the hal 9000 piloting us to neighboring planet thanks to mathematical operations that were greatly assisted by computer ran calculations that would take is years if not decades or longer to do in long form.

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[trouble13]

It's independence. It's a useful skill.
It doesn't "matter", really. If you can't tie your shoes there's Velcro.

Tieing your shoes went out of style in the 80s, has it come back now?

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[beerftw]

I hear tje argument your making from many people and i completely disagree with it. Yes its important to understand mathematical principles but using technology for accurate mechanics is acceptable and imho perferred.

The less your burdened with mundane tasks the more your freed to engage yourself in more advanced endeavors. For instance you dont need to know how to hunt and butcher animals because technology has freed from that burden. Math isnt much different. I dont need to know simple arithmetic to do advanced calculations because i have a calculator.

It does not mean we are dumber. We are freer to pursue things that we once could not. Your criticism is of mankinds achievements.

The wright brothers began flight with a biwing single engined propeller plane, now we have pilots who operate rockets into outerspace and back. One day we may have the hal 9000 piloting us to neighboring planet thanks to mathematical operations that were greatly assisted by computer ran calculations that would take is years if not decades or longer to do in long form.

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It is not quite that simple, for example the things that make our lives simpler, computers need a crapton of math to program, all of the things that make our lives easier require a large portion of the population educated enough to make them, without such proper education in a few decades those things that made our lives easier may be gone as there would not be anyone capable of designing or programming them, or building machines to butcher animals, or machines to build automobiles.

These tasks though are not impossible, however at the core of all of it you must understand fundamentals, and not skip them because a cellphone can give you the answer, or else we may be doomed in future generations.

 

[beerftw]

They were not HS dropouts.

The space race was not, however people like machinists were despite needing extreme amounts of math. Even then if you did not know school dropouts were very high leading up to ww2, it was a thing called the great depression and many chose enter the workforce as fast as they could doing any job they could to help their family make ends meet, it was not uncommon then to have extended families all pulling together on whatever crap sidejobs they could do survive, while living in the same household. This however did not make them stupid, this is how school dropouts were commonly used during ww2 for highly skilled tasks, most retained math and other skills well and were able to perform jobs that today people struggle with due to the math required.

 

[beerftw]

I already explained this to you but you ignored it once. The reason that companies bring people in from India is not because the US doesn't produce enough smart people. Its because they can be brought in on H1 visas and paid substantially lower amounts. In fact, a huge number of these people bought their degrees in India and then people like me have to go in and fix all their awful work.

Not quite though it is true in some professions, in many it is because they can not find people locally trained to perform those tasks, infact around here pulling in people from india for skilled labor tasks is more expensive than hiring local due ti h1 restrictions on pay, however if you can not find xyz number of people needed you need to recruit them from elsewhere.

Also o fixing peoples aweful work, that is everywhere, half my job rebuilding transmissions is fixing college grad engineers mistakes sometimes in a few minutes, even major corporations can have american employees who screw everything up.

 

[beerftw]

Writing in cursive isn't a requirement of intelligence. What a strange thing to think.

Writing in cursive teaches the mind to understand writing outside blocky print, script writing is not just cursive but in many forms like calligraphy and understanding such helps the mind learn to adapt to various writing styles, especially since cursive varies wildly from person to person, and requires more than simple symbol memory to read it.

 

[beerftw]

I mastered all of those when I was 17. I went beyond that at 18-21. But nice try. The reason there are no replacements is because its a dying field with no jobs.

Considering nearly everything one way or another requires machining, it becoming a dying field would be a death sentence to the world economy. Why can't we drive our cars, or wait no one knows how to machine the engine blocks to make them move, why can't we take a bus, oh yeah same crap they require humans to operate machines, and even automated machines need human oversight as things like castings and forgings can vary wildly, but yeah let it die, the machines will figure it out for us or something.

 

[beerftw]

No one said that cursive is hard. If someone can write in their native language, they can write in cursive.

FYI if they had calculators back then, they would use them instead. You think NASA is up there using slide rules in 2019? You think Boeing and Ford are using slide rules in their planes and vehicles?

You can stick with them if you'd like. I will stick with modern reality.

Actually nasa used slide rules quite often, infact apollo 13 was saved by them doing bacis math on the spot to use gravity to slingshot around the moons gravity.