Should Intersexed people be forced into a gender/sex at birth?

[Angel]

Originally Posted by roguenuke
...Children are much more open to change and acceptance of differences than adults are. This has been studied. It is especially true if they have good adults in their lives to guide them. Many schools are teaching acceptance of differences, diversity more and more....

Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911
...yes are you absolutely agree with you they are very much a lot easier to manipulate and brainwash. That's why so much on psychology focuses on the childhood. yes you're not going to get argument for me it is much easier to manipulate a child than it is an adult...

The crux of your difference, it seems to me:
"Open to change and acceptance" vs. "very much a lot easier to manipulate and brainwash."
Which descriptor better captures the stakes?

Since having children much more open to the idea of differences among people, including when it comes to sex or gender isnt a bad thing, seems my argument is definitely the better option.

How does letting kids know that there are people born intersexed who should not have to get unneeded surgeries or hormones just to fit in harm them?

I do believe the issue between the two of you had to do with dressing kids in genderized clothing, not with exposing kids to the political hot-button issue of "intersexuality," which adults cannot even agree on by the way. But I'll butt out now; this was between you and CLAX, and I only wished to make a point of clarification anyway.

 

[Ouroboros]

Do you speak for those women?

The obvious follow-up to my answer of "no" is "why do I have to be able to speak for a group to assert its existence?"

The only reason you could have for asking would seem to be, "If you're not speaking for them, you can't prove they exist." I guess you and others can believe that if you so choose.

 

[roguenuke]

I do believe the issue between the two of you had to do with dressing kids in genderized clothing, not with exposing kids to the political hot-button issue of "intersexuality," which adults cannot even agree on by the way. But I'll butt out now; this was between you and CLAX, and I only wished to make a point of clarification anyway.

And is there an issue with dressing a 3 year old whom you would identify as a boy in a dress? If so, what is the issue exactly? Is it harmful in some tangible way?

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[roguenuke]

None of that changes the fact that the law has to deal with the populace that isn't comfortable with intersex types. If they become the minority voice, then they will be overruled, just as previous minority voices were overruled. I'm not addressing the justice of the matter as yet; just the facts of the situation.

The law has no place comforting to those who aren't com ffg portable with other people and how they are born when they are doing you or others no harm.

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[roguenuke]

That's going to depend on local standards and possibly genetic testing, but yes, a lot of women might have a problem with a "bearded lady" in the bathroom, and the law has to take their uncertainties into account, not just automatically take the side of the minority interest.

Those women need to get over themselves. Too bad so sad for them. They have no right to be comfortable in the restroom because they have preconceived misperceptions of how others should look.

Oh and if she has ID proving she is legally a woman, or further a birth certificate saying she is a woman, no law in the country could legally do anything to her. She would in fact have a valid case of harassment for others not understanding people are different than they are.

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[roguenuke]

For a long time custom took the place of law, but as these sort of struggles assume importance, laws will take the place of customs.

If such laws are not on the books in some states as yet, the legal wrangling will assure that they will get there, whether for one side or the other.

This isnt that time.

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[AProudLefty]

The obvious follow-up to my answer of "no" is "why do I have to be able to speak for a group to assert its existence?"

The only reason you could have for asking would seem to be, "If you're not speaking for them, you can't prove they exist." I guess you and others can believe that if you so choose.

Thank for the long winded reply when all you had to do was to say no. So no you do not how they would have felt or reacted to the situation we discussed.

 

[roguenuke]

Doesn't matter to me, I don't care. His peers may have a different perspective, and make his life miserable. But you don't care, you have an agenda to promote.

I'm for anti bullying teaching in school, teaching kids to accept others and their differences, as I teach my children. Seems to me too many like yourselves like to excuse parents teaching their children intolerance and to be bullies simply because others are different.

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[CLAX1911]

The crux of your difference, it seems to me:
"Open to change and acceptance" vs. "very much a lot easier to manipulate and brainwash."
Which descriptor better captures the stakes?

I think they both do. It is easy to manipulate a child but it is easy to inspire them for the same reason. They are open minded and impressionable. So you have to be careful with them.

 

[Angel]

And is there an issue with dressing a 3 year old whom you would identify as a boy in a dress? If so, what is the issue exactly? Is it harmful in some tangible way?

In talking about effects on a subjectivity other than our own, the issue is always about intangibles.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Lol I know the feeling. Never trust women with your credit card.

You speak as if I had a say in the matter. I trust her, but her words when she returned left me shaking. "The girls are very happy."

 

[Lisa]

I do believe the issue between the two of you had to do with dressing kids in genderized clothing, not with exposing kids to the political hot-button issue of "intersexuality," which adults cannot even agree on by the way. But I'll butt out now; this was between you and CLAX, and I only wished to make a point of clarification anyway.

How is allowing a child to dress in the gender of the clothing that they feel comfortable a hot button issue? Should girls be banned from wearing pants and shorts?

Intersexuality is not a hot button issue, except to people who are willfully ignorant. You have to be lazy to remain ignorant when we have the internet at our fingertips 24-7.

Intersex: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

 

[Lisa]

I think they both do. It is easy to manipulate a child but it is easy to inspire them for the same reason. They are open minded and impressionable. So you have to be careful with them.

Who is trying to manipulate children?

 

[Angel]

I think they both do. It is easy to manipulate a child but it is easy to inspire them for the same reason. They are open minded and impressionable. So you have to be careful with them.

Careful is the key, yes. Imposing a political agenda on a child who must live those politics among his peers may not be the careful approach.

 

[Lisa]

None of that changes the fact that the law has to deal with the populace that isn't comfortable with intersex types. If they become the minority voice, then they will be overruled, just as previous minority voices were overruled. I'm not addressing the justice of the matter as yet; just the facts of the situation.

How do you know that someone w you meet or pass on the street is intersexxed? Do you demand a strip search of strangers before you say hello to them? You cannot overrule the right of someone to freely exist as they are, just because you are ignorant or uncomfortable with the fact that they arent a binary male or female.

 

[Angel]

How is allowing a child to dress in the gender of the clothing that they feel comfortable a hot button issue? Should girls be banned from wearing pants and shorts?

How does my post generate these questions?

Intersexuality is not a hot button issue, except to people who are willfully ignorant....

"Intersexuality" is a hot-button issue, as evidenced in this forum, except to people who are willfully ignorant.

 

[Lisa]

Careful is the key, yes. Imposing a political agenda on a child who must live those politics among his peers may not be the careful approach.

What political agenda do intersex people have?

 

[Angel]

What political agenda do intersex people have?

It's non-intersex people like you who have the political agenda.

 

[Lisa]

It's non-intersex people like you who have the political agenda.

What political agenda do I have to except for the fact that they cannot be forced to have surgery or have a Dr declare that the infant is either male or female when their genitalia is ambiguous? Is that a problem for you that the child gets to make that decision as they grow up? Horrific mistakes were made in the past when the Dr made the wrong decision nor performed general surgery and the intersexxed person had to live with that mistake for the rest of their life.

Are you somehow confusing intersexxed people with transgendered people? They are not in any way the same.

 

[Angel]

What political agenda do I have to except for the fact that they cannot be forced to have surgery or have a Dr declare that the infant is either male or female when their genitalia is ambiguous? Is that a problem for you that the child gets to make that decision as they grow up? Horrific mistakes were made in the past when the Dr made the wrong decision nor performed general surgery and the intersexxed person had to live with that mistake for the rest of their life.

Are you somehow confusing intersexxed people with transgendered people? They are not in any way the same.

No, I'm not confusing anything with anything, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. Or can you produce a post of mine that makes any of the claims you attribute to me by implication in this post of yours? If not -- and you can not -- then take your talking-point attack to another member who better fits your straw man.

 

[Lisa]

No, I'm not confusing anything with anything, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. Or can you produce a post of mine that makes any of the claims you attribute to me by implication in this post of yours? If not -- and you can not -- then take your talking-point attack to another member who better fits your straw man.

Then explain this post of yours, What agenda do I have as it relates to interssexxed people?

It's non-intersex people like you who have the political agenda.

What political agenda is being imposed on a child, because you also said this,

Careful is the key, yes. Imposing a political agenda on a child who must live those politics among his peers may not be the careful approach.

 

[roguenuke]

In talking about effects on a subjectivity other than our own, the issue is always about intangibles.

We do have research to show how allowing children to be themselves is better for them than trying to protect them from bullies. You just have to teach them to be confident and stand up for themselves as well, and for others who are different.

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[roguenuke]

Careful is the key, yes. Imposing a political agenda on a child who must live those politics among his peers may not be the careful approach.

This is only politics to those who want to remain willfully ignorant about the harm caused to intersexed and even transgender children when it comes to forcing them to be something they aren't simply to conform to societal norms.

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[Angel]

Then explain this post of yours,

What political agenda is being imposed on a child, because you also said this,

You explain them to yourself -- they're clear as can be. There's nothing there about surgical intervention or the other talking points you launched at me in a post. I entered this conversation merely to clarify a point between roguenuke and CLAXX. I have posted nothing else in this thread. You seem to be looking for a fight. Find it with someone else.

 

[Angel]

We do have research to show how allowing children to be themselves is better for them than trying to protect them from bullies. You just have to teach them to be confident and stand up for themselves as well, and for others who are different.

I don't need studies to tell me this. It's a no-brainer.