Should Civil Forfeiture Exist?

[American]

That is not quite as bad, as there is obviously pre-trial detention now. If given the choice to surrender my guns before trial or to remain locked up then that is a no-brainer. One serious problem with criminal charges is that it is the state of X vs. you (the alleged perp) and as such, even after being found not guilty, you cannot sue for false arrest/imprisonment.

Try getting your guns back.

 

[American]

only courts should be able to forfeit money and only on a guilty verdict for a crime that had to do with financial gains due to criminal behavior.

It's called Life, Liberty and Property............the basic tenets of the Declaration of Independence, and supposedly protected by the US Constitution.

 

[Peter King]

It's called Life, Liberty and Property............the basic tenets of the Declaration of Independence, and supposedly protected by the US Constitution.

Yes, but I am talking about after a criminal conviction, that is when courts should be able to forfeit the profits of those crimes.

 

[American]

Yes, but I am talking about after a criminal conviction, that is when courts should be able to forfeit the profits of those crimes.

And I agree.

 

[concernedpuma]

If upon conviction, after due process, it turns out that the majority of criminals having cash on them are black, then that's just how it is. But since blacks are stopped at a much higher rate than others, and their cash is seized at a much higher rate than others, it does make you wonder if blacks are being targeted in this thing. I believe they are; because they can afford attorneys in most cases, whites are twice as likely as blacks, who generally can't afford attorneys, to get their money back, or some of it at least, at the end of the lengthy court process. It can't be lost on the police that most of the time blacks won't be able to fight back in court. That's why they target blacks, and besides they're an easy target.

That is a reverse discrimination post, yes? You find the evil whites complicit in every bad thing a black person does. Your declaration that whites can afford better lawyers in criminal cases jumps the nature of the crime. If you somehow are suggesting that white drug dealers have access to better lawyers, I would like to know where you get that idea. I don't care of the color of any individual who has to forfeit ill gotten gains, and I serve on jury's when called.
Regards,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

It's called Life, Liberty and Property............the basic tenets of the Declaration of Independence, and supposedly protected by the US Constitution.

Sorry, bud. You show property in BOLD, after listing Liberty in normal case. Surely you aren't forgetting that prison is denial of Liberty, and is called for in some cases. How is it you don't object to loss of Liberty, but Property bothers you?
Regards,
CP

 

[Waddy]

That is a reverse discrimination post, yes? You find the evil whites complicit in every bad thing a black person does. Your declaration that whites can afford better lawyers in criminal cases jumps the nature of the crime. If you somehow are suggesting that white drug dealers have access to better lawyers, I would like to know where you get that idea. I don't care of the color of any individual who has to forfeit ill gotten gains, and I serve on jury's when called.
Regards,
CP

I don't think it's evil "whites' necessarily. I'd bet even black police officers stop blacks and confiscate their cash just like any other officer prone to this type of thing. And at the street level, neither blacks nor whites can afford good legal counsel. As you go up the food chain, I have no doubt whites can afford better lawyers. We see that time after time in the justice system. One reason there are so many blacks in prison is that they commit more crimes...but another reason is that they rely way more on court appointed attorneys. That quality of representation varies a lot in quality. So, from a police point of view, I could see where confiscating money from blacks would be easier and more productive than confiscating from whites, who would probably be in a better position to fight the thing. And that is just what the Greenville report points out.

Civil forfeiture: SC police seize millions, often from innocent people

BTW; the series of reports published by the Greenville paper is worth of a Pulitzer. It was thorough and unbiased. Great research.

 

[concernedpuma]

I don't think it's evil "whites' necessarily. I'd bet even black police officers stop blacks and confiscate their cash just like any other officer prone to this type of thing. And at the street level, neither blacks nor whites can afford good legal counsel. As you go up the food chain, I have no doubt whites can afford better lawyers. We see that time after time in the justice system. One reason there are so many blacks in prison is that they commit more crimes...but another reason is that they rely way more on court appointed attorneys. That quality of representation varies a lot in quality. So, from a police point of view, I could see where confiscating money from blacks would be easier and more productive than confiscating from whites, who would probably be in a better position to fight the thing. And that is just what the Greenville report points out.

Civil forfeiture: SC police seize millions, often from innocent people

BTW; the series of reports published by the Greenville paper is worth of a Pulitzer. It was thorough and unbiased. Great research.

I don't think it's evil "whites' necessarily. Necessarily? Do you not see a stacked opinion when you write that? What that says to me is if there can be no other option, it is then evil whites. I am not sure what property seizure you worry about, other than lineage from crime to profit. Are you somehow suggesting that enforcement of law ought be race based?
This whole argument is framed as black subjugation, and it isn't that. I don't care the color of an individual that is attached for criminal activity and don't understand how a criminal ought be excused because of their race. That is a false argument put up by Psalm singing apologists for true evils done in the past and is irrelevant to truly color blind citizens, like myself.
Regards,
CP

 

[Waddy]

I don't think it's evil "whites' necessarily. Necessarily? Do you not see a stacked opinion when you write that? What that says to me is if there can be no other option, it is then evil whites. I am not sure what property seizure you worry about, other than lineage from crime to profit. Are you somehow suggesting that enforcement of law ought be race based?
This whole argument is framed as black subjugation, and it isn't that. I don't care the color of an individual that is attached for criminal activity and don't understand how a criminal ought be excused because of their race. That is a false argument put up by Psalm singing apologists for true evils done in the past and is irrelevant to truly color blind citizens, like myself.
Regards,
CP

What I see are police departments willing to subvert the Constitution in order to line their pockets. The fact that most of these departments are are run by white people, who target black people for confiscation, does indeed suggest there is a racist element to it. But there is also the practical element that these black people won't be fighting back. If you read that excellent piece of journalism it just jumps right off the page at you. I suspect you didn't read it.

Am I suggesting that enforcement of law be race based? Isn't race based law enforcement exactly what that report shows we have right now, at least regarding civil forfeiture? So, no, I'm not for race based law enforcement; we should quit targeting blacks for civil forfeiture.

Look; blacks who commit crimes SHOULD be in prison. Anyone who commits a crime should be in prison. But to take anyone's property without due process SHOULD also be a crime. And the crime of civil forfeiture, when it is done by seizing money and property without charging someone in a crime, should also land someone in law enforcement in prison.

I'm about as right wing as they come. I support President Trump on most issues. The Greenville News articles may not reflect law enforcement practices nationwide, but it is obvious that South Carolina civil forfeiture targets blacks and generally abuses their power against all races. I have no idea if they target blacks or anyone else in other ways, or if it's restricted to only civil forfeiture.

I have to be intellectually honest and call it as I see it.

You know, since I have the time, waiting for some paint to dry, I'll go ahead and add some thoughts on race in general. Are people racist? No, we've come a long way. We're a better group now. I know of very few racist people anymore. Lots worse a generation ago. But is there still racism, especially a serious and deadly racism? Yes there is; institutional racism. Well, you might say, everyone has heard that but nobody knows what it is. How 'bout an example?

3 out of 5 black men have "paper" on them. They've been arrested, are in jail or prison, on parole, or have court papers out on them of some kind. Something like half our prison population is black males. About half the murders are black. Blacks have a high crime level. Blacks are often in gangs. They drop out of school more than any other race, and their reading levels, math levels, and most other academic measurements are dismal. Over 70% are born without fathers around. You know we're talking mostly about young black men here, right?

Did they commit these crimes; they sure did. Do they bear some responsibility; they sure do!!

But if 3 out of 5 young men were middle and upper class white boys in so much trouble, it would be a national emergency !!!!!! 3 in 5 !!!!!!!! Heads would roll!! Politicians would spend whatever it took to address the problem !!! Money would be no object !!!! We would mobilize the nation!!!!! Our future in jeoprady; can't let that happen. Congress and legislatures across the nation would come alive with ideas how to solve the problem!!! The President would stake his campaign on helping !!!!!!! Action at every level of government and academia would be directed to this horrendous problem!!!!!! There would be a revolution in government and schools; we wouldn't even be discussing school choice.

But, well, it's those people; you just can't help them.

I remember several years ago a group of citizen activists wanted to start a program call "Midnight Basketball" to keep young kids (mostly black) off the streets and give them somewhere safe to go. Well, the city fathers would have no basketball so late at night. If those had been white middle and upper class kids needing a safe place off the streets it wouldn't have ever been a problem. In fact, it would be a drop in the bucket.

 

[Bodi]

****... I hit yes on accident. I meant to hit NO. Sorry.

 

[American]

Sorry, bud. You show property in BOLD, after listing Liberty in normal case. Surely you aren't forgetting that prison is denial of Liberty, and is called for in some cases. How is it you don't object to loss of Liberty, but Property bothers you?
Regards,
CP

Prison is loss of liberty after due process.

 

[TheLeadSpitter]

No, it's theft wearing those disguise glasses connected with the nose and mustache.

 

[radioman]

Civil forfeiture should not exist in its current, easily abused form.

 

[Obscurity]

It's absolutely insane. It is also blatantly unconstitutional.

 

[concernedpuma]

What I see are police departments willing to subvert the Constitution in order to line their pockets. The fact that most of these departments are are run by white people, who target black people for confiscation, does indeed suggest there is a racist element to it. But there is also the practical element that these black people won't be fighting back. If you read that excellent piece of journalism it just jumps right off the page at you. I suspect you didn't read it.

Am I suggesting that enforcement of law be race based? Isn't race based law enforcement exactly what that report shows we have right now, at least regarding civil forfeiture? So, no, I'm not for race based law enforcement; we should quit targeting blacks for civil forfeiture.

Look; blacks who commit crimes SHOULD be in prison. Anyone who commits a crime should be in prison. But to take anyone's property without due process SHOULD also be a crime. And the crime of civil forfeiture, when it is done by seizing money and property without charging someone in a crime, should also land someone in law enforcement in prison.

I'm about as right wing as they come. I support President Trump on most issues. The Greenville News articles may not reflect law enforcement practices nationwide, but it is obvious that South Carolina civil forfeiture targets blacks and generally abuses their power against all races. I have no idea if they target blacks or anyone else in other ways, or if it's restricted to only civil forfeiture.

I have to be intellectually honest and call it as I see it.

You know, since I have the time, waiting for some paint to dry, I'll go ahead and add some thoughts on race in general. Are people racist? No, we've come a long way. We're a better group now. I know of very few racist people anymore. Lots worse a generation ago. But is there still racism, especially a serious and deadly racism? Yes there is; institutional racism. Well, you might say, everyone has heard that but nobody knows what it is. How 'bout an example?

3 out of 5 black men have "paper" on them. They've been arrested, are in jail or prison, on parole, or have court papers out on them of some kind. Something like half our prison population is black males. About half the murders are black. Blacks have a high crime level. Blacks are often in gangs. They drop out of school more than any other race, and their reading levels, math levels, and most other academic measurements are dismal. Over 70% are born without fathers around. You know we're talking mostly about young black men here, right?

Did they commit these crimes; they sure did. Do they bear some responsibility; they sure do!!

But if 3 out of 5 young men were middle and upper class white boys in so much trouble, it would be a national emergency !!!!!! 3 in 5 !!!!!!!! Heads would roll!! Politicians would spend whatever it took to address the problem !!! Money would be no object !!!! We would mobilize the nation!!!!! Our future in jeoprady; can't let that happen. Congress and legislatures across the nation would come alive with ideas how to solve the problem!!! The President would stake his campaign on helping !!!!!!! Action at every level of government and academia would be directed to this horrendous problem!!!!!! There would be a revolution in government and schools; we wouldn't even be discussing school choice.

But, well, it's those people; you just can't help them.

I remember several years ago a group of citizen activists wanted to start a program call "Midnight Basketball" to keep young kids (mostly black) off the streets and give them somewhere safe to go. Well, the city fathers would have no basketball so late at night. If those had been white middle and upper class kids needing a safe place off the streets it wouldn't have ever been a problem. In fact, it would be a drop in the bucket.

Waddy, I so much appreciate your thoughtful reply. It is refreshing to read an alternate opinion that is thought out. I couldn't get your link to open, but based on reading your interpretation is accepted as truth of the articles content.
I disagree with some of your positions, but am comfortable that you believe what you write. I believe with two people of honest, differing opinions one may come to accept the others position at some point.
I don't have paint drying(Thank goodness! I hate painting.) but let me add, as an American, I expect equal treatment for all citizens. I don't care of the color of anyone. I firmly believe we are going to get there, but can't excuse criminality or forgo its penalties to hurry the process.
Once again, Thank you for your polite reply.
Regards,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

Prison is loss of liberty after due process.

Is there no due process with forfeiture?
Regards,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

Civil forfeiture should not exist in its current, easily abused form.

I ask honestly; how is it easily abused?
Regards,
CP

 

[American]

Is there no due process with forfeiture?
Regards,
CP

I'm unaware of any.

 

[HumblePi]

A few days ago jamesrage posted this thread about how Mississippi wants to make it easier for police officers to take cash and vehicles through civil forfeiture.

Do you think civil forfeiture should exist? Is it a violation of constitutional rights? If you support it, why?

I see it only as legalized theft by police, there is no reason why police should be able to take property without having to prove it first or charge someone of a crime.

The Feds do it all the time and have been doing asset forfeiture for decades. That's one of the funds that Trump is eyeing to pillage for his wall. There's about $600 million in that fund being held by the U.S. Treasury.

 

[Mason66]

This is an interesting video from a Michigan lawyer about this subject with statistics and everything.

 

[Mason66]

uh if someone is caught robbing a bank using a gun I claim is mine, the gun is going to remain as evidence -at least-until the trial is over

let us get back to reality

police get a tip that a drug dealer stashed 100K in drug proceeds with his brother in law. A judge signs a seizure order based on probable cause-supported by sworn testimony that the money is narcotics proceeds. The drug dealer doesn't claim the cash for obvious reasons. The brother in law claims it is his. The Government provides testimony either showing that the claimant did not have the means of generating such income or say a wire tap where there is evidence that the money came from the drug dealer. the jury agrees with the government.

tell us what is wrong with that

The law is being used to take money from people stopped for traffic offenses. A lot of the seizures are under $1000.00 which it makes it not financially viable for the owner of the cash to try to get it back.

The evil part of this is the police departments that keep part of this money which is a huge incentive to take money from people never charged with a crime.

 

[Mason66]

I cannot speak for state forfeiture actions. I do know at the federal level, what you are saying MAY happen but it is no where near common. and again-if a jury finds that the proceeds are NOT YOURS, doesnt that dispel your claims?

Yes it is common. More so in some jurisdictions than others. Watch the video I posted a few posts back.

 

[Mason66]

I think any forfeiture should be limited to fruits of the operation. Onus on the defendant to prove it was purchased prior to the beginning of the criminal activity in question and not used in the operation. No "he parked a car full of drugs in the driveway once" nonsense.

Civil asset forfeiture has been grotesquely abused. I can't believe it exists as a commonplace thing. A source of income for police departments, pulling people over, searching them and taking cash and vehicles if they think the "suspect" won't be able to do anything about it. (They don't take the neurosurgeons Bentley)

Literally.

Further, any assets seized go away from the locality in which they are collected. Into some fund that doesn't get back to them. Remove all incentive beyond enforcement of the law.

Because they clearly can't navigate the moral hazard.

You have that backwards. The government should prove with each and every piece of property that it was purchased with illicit funds before they are allowed to take it.

 

[TurtleDude]

The law is being used to take money from people stopped for traffic offenses. A lot of the seizures are under $1000.00 which it makes it not financially viable for the owner of the cash to try to get it back.

The evil part of this is the police departments that keep part of this money which is a huge incentive to take money from people never charged with a crime.

I agree, that is why I limited my discussion to federal forfeiture, which I am-or perhaps once was-an expert on since I had more civil forfeiture trials than anyone in the 6th Circuit at one time

 

[Mason66]

What I see are police departments willing to subvert the Constitution in order to line their pockets. The fact that most of these departments are are run by white people, who target black people for confiscation, does indeed suggest there is a racist element to it. But there is also the practical element that these black people won't be fighting back. If you read that excellent piece of journalism it just jumps right off the page at you. I suspect you didn't read it.

Am I suggesting that enforcement of law be race based? Isn't race based law enforcement exactly what that report shows we have right now, at least regarding civil forfeiture? So, no, I'm not for race based law enforcement; we should quit targeting blacks for civil forfeiture.

Look; blacks who commit crimes SHOULD be in prison. Anyone who commits a crime should be in prison. But to take anyone's property without due process SHOULD also be a crime. And the crime of civil forfeiture, when it is done by seizing money and property without charging someone in a crime, should also land someone in law enforcement in prison.

I'm about as right wing as they come. I support President Trump on most issues. The Greenville News articles may not reflect law enforcement practices nationwide, but it is obvious that South Carolina civil forfeiture targets blacks and generally abuses their power against all races. I have no idea if they target blacks or anyone else in other ways, or if it's restricted to only civil forfeiture.

I have to be intellectually honest and call it as I see it.

You know, since I have the time, waiting for some paint to dry, I'll go ahead and add some thoughts on race in general. Are people racist? No, we've come a long way. We're a better group now. I know of very few racist people anymore. Lots worse a generation ago. But is there still racism, especially a serious and deadly racism? Yes there is; institutional racism. Well, you might say, everyone has heard that but nobody knows what it is. How 'bout an example?

3 out of 5 black men have "paper" on them. They've been arrested, are in jail or prison, on parole, or have court papers out on them of some kind. Something like half our prison population is black males. About half the murders are black. Blacks have a high crime level. Blacks are often in gangs. They drop out of school more than any other race, and their reading levels, math levels, and most other academic measurements are dismal. Over 70% are born without fathers around. You know we're talking mostly about young black men here, right?

Did they commit these crimes; they sure did. Do they bear some responsibility; they sure do!!

But if 3 out of 5 young men were middle and upper class white boys in so much trouble, it would be a national emergency !!!!!! 3 in 5 !!!!!!!! Heads would roll!! Politicians would spend whatever it took to address the problem !!! Money would be no object !!!! We would mobilize the nation!!!!! Our future in jeoprady; can't let that happen. Congress and legislatures across the nation would come alive with ideas how to solve the problem!!! The President would stake his campaign on helping !!!!!!! Action at every level of government and academia would be directed to this horrendous problem!!!!!! There would be a revolution in government and schools; we wouldn't even be discussing school choice.

But, well, it's those people; you just can't help them.

I remember several years ago a group of citizen activists wanted to start a program call "Midnight Basketball" to keep young kids (mostly black) off the streets and give them somewhere safe to go. Well, the city fathers would have no basketball so late at night. If those had been white middle and upper class kids needing a safe place off the streets it wouldn't have ever been a problem. In fact, it would be a drop in the bucket.

This is not a racial thing. It is a color thing. That color is green.