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Should California Pass Single Payer?

Should California pass Single Payer?


  • Total voters
    45
What's your problem with existing proposals?

No transition plan, no financing plan, and promises of an extremely unrealistic plan/benefit design (absolutely everything covered, and at 100% actuarial value is not feasible, nor is it a good idea).

Billings, pharmaceuticals and other medical supplies would be the primary targets of focus, not so much wages directly, so yes, given the zeitgeist where people are finally cognizant of what a complete racket health costs are in America, this is more than politically viable.


Billing is done by wage earners. As you already noted, savings are achieved via layoffs ("you don't need a sprawling department of people trawling through myriad different insurers and their cacophony of plans"). Surely the fact that you see the need to frame the savings as resulting just from going after a popular villain like pharma--and not, as they would also have to be, from squeezing workers in what's soon to be the biggest employment sector--is an indication that you do in fact understand the political challenges of the government being directly responsible for thousands and thousands of layoffs and/or wage cuts.
 
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No transition plan, no financing plan, and promises of an extremely unrealistic plan/benefit design (absolutely everything covered, and at 100% actuarial value is not feasible, nor is it a good idea).

Actually the financing plan was pretty much covered with the costs worked out and tax/revenue generation proposals in place, and some studies even positing that SP would cost _less_ than the current regime while covering _more_. The cost is already considered and factored. Transition is a more interesting question, and yes, there are certainly things I'd like to see worked out on that front line photo IDs and residence requirements and negotiating protocols in addition to the loose ends of private insurer displacement, but that certainly is no obstacle that warrants the sort of backstab Rendon delivered.

Billing is done by wage earners. As you already noted, savings are achieved via layoffs ("you don't need a sprawling department of people trawling through myriad different insurers and their cacophony of plans"). Surely the fact that you see the need to frame the savings as resulting just from going after a popular villain like pharma--and not, as they would also have to be, from squeezing workers in what's soon to be the biggest employment sector--is an indication that you do in fact understand the political challenges of the government being directly responsible for thousands and thousands of layoffs and/or wage cuts.

Yes, there will certainly be costs in employment and wages to a criminally bloated sector.

That said I don't think there will be much sympathy given the cancerous extent of said bloat the public is all too aware of.

ID cards are racist. Democrats told me.

Not exactly a 1:1 equivalency since voter fraud is relatively unproven as a problem, whereas health fraud has precedent of being systemic (as in Ontario's case per my earlier link). Personally I don't mind voter ID cards so long as they're easy to get and not actually disenfranchising.

Yes. But as you alluded to in your last sentence, Americans can simply hop in their car and legally resettle as citizens permanently residing in California.

There's no doubt that there will be health immigration to Cali, but such measures will significantly limit the increase in users, illicit and otherwise, from other states.
 
I don't think it's a cop-out. It's a practical consideration. A couple decades ago many cities in California found out the hard way that, when they handed out uber-attractive benefits to homeless people, all of a sudden homeless people from all over the country started migrating there and the programs became unsustainable. I think the same would happen here.

That's an easy fix. You simply don't make the benefit available to non-Californians. The EU has had little to no active border control for years, creating a similar situation - they haven't seen (for example) Germans rushing to get on the English pension system, or NHS.

Because of this practical consideration, I would have to vote 'no'... though it would be interesting to watch to see if it could work elsewhere in the US. (I don't always buy that what works in other cultures would automatically work here... that's why they're defined as "cultures".)

A not bad consideration.
 
What's your problem with existing proposals?



Billings, pharmaceuticals and other medical supplies would be the primary targets of focus, not so much wages directly, so yes, given the zeitgeist where people are finally cognizant of what a complete racket health costs are in America, this is more than politically viable.



Do what we in Ontario have done out of necessity due to Americans defrauding our healthcare system in the 90s en masse ( Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada - NYTimes.com ): implement a photo ID required to receive SP covered govt healthcare. I would also probably add a 1+ year residence requirement before you are eligible for SP and get your card.

What?!?!!!


Why do you hate black people?
 
The difference is that almost all of Europe has some form of single payer healthcare with near 100% of their citizens insured. If one state in the US did it, when people get sick and their own state's healthcare system would massively **** them over and send them into astronomical debt, they would temporarily move to California as a medical tourist to get treatment.

Who says California have to provide this for non-Californians?

Although it's good to see lefty's admit that an overly-generous welfare state, combined with lack of border control, is unsustainable....
 
That's an easy fix. You simply don't make the benefit available to non-Californians. The EU has had little to no active border control for years, creating a similar situation - they haven't seen (for example) Germans rushing to get on the English pension system, or NHS.



A not bad consideration.
How would the details work? What defines a "non-Californian"? Would a person have to establish residency similar to college in-state tuition?
 
FOR THIS POLL, ASSUME A FEDERAL SINGLE PAYER IS NOT AN OPTION.

California likes to point out that it is the 5th largest economy in the world, making it larger than Great Britain, which has a Single Payer Healthcare System.

Should California enact a Single Payer Healthcare System, as has been proposed?

It includes illegal aliens. You can't be a border state and socialist at the same time. It will double the state budget, and increase the exodus of companies out of the state.
 
Actually the financing plan was pretty much covered with the costs worked out and tax/revenue generation proposals in place

Not even close. This is the extent of the financing discussion in SB 562:

Article 3. Healthy California Financing

100657.(a)It is the intent of the Legislature to enact legislation that would develop a revenue plan, taking into consideration anticipated federal revenue available for the program. In developing the revenue plan, it is the intent of the Legislature to consult with appropriate officials and stakeholders.
(b)It is the intent of the Legislature to enact legislation that would require all state revenues from the program to be deposited in an account within the Healthy California Trust Fund to be established and known as the Healthy California Trust Fund Account.

There's a reason Rendon called this legislation woefully incomplete--it was. Vermont took the politically easy position of kicking the can on developing a financing plan for its single-payer plan. That was enough to get the bill signed into law but not, as it turned out, enough to get it implemented.

and some studies even positing that SP would cost _less_ than the current regime while covering _more_.

With additional covered benefits (literally everything is included in the benefit package), 100% actuarial value for everything, no utilization management mechanisms, no ability to steer patients to cost effective settings or treatments, and a bump to Medi-Cal's notably low current rates? C'mon.

Yes, there will certainly be costs in employment and wages to a criminally bloated sector.

That said I don't think there will be much sympathy given the cancerous extent of said bloat the public is all too aware of.

I suspect most people don't view the folks staffing white collar admin support or business ops functions at their physician's office or hospitals as "cancers." Certainly the folks that would be displaced if the promised savings actually could be achieved aren't likely to view themselves that way. Hence the political problem.

Imagine if, not content with union-busting, a rightwing government created a monopsony with the express purpose of driving down wages in an industry. Or deliberately dropped a NAFTA-style bomb on a particular segment of the labor market in every single community in a state because the average wage is too high or the sector has more employees than it prefers. What would the left do? Celebrate the elimination of cancerous bloat?
 
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What?!?!!!


Why do you hate black people?

Who says California have to provide this for non-Californians?

Although it's good to see lefty's admit that an overly-generous welfare state, combined with lack of border control, is unsustainable....

C'mon, that's beneath you; it's not like the left is some kind of monolith that invariably thinks proper identification isn't important for the upkeep of generous state benefits.
 
C'mon, that's beneath you; it's not like the left is some kind of monolith that invariably thinks proper identification isn't important for the upkeep of generous state benefits.

Oh Cmon, that was obviously tounge-in-cheek :D
 
Not even close. This is the extent of the financing discussion in SB 562:

There's a reason Rendon called this legislation woefully incomplete--it was. Vermont took the politically easy position of kicking the can on developing a financing plan for its single-payer plan. That was enough to get the bill signed into law but not, as it turned out, enough to get it implemented.

Except that

A: The bill had a cost estimate attached to it

and

B: The Assembly was to explore funding options (with a 15% payroll being floated, while state sales and business receipts increase of 2.3% was alternately proposed) before Rendon carried out his backstab at the behest of his donors and canned it without allowing any further discussion, exploration or debate. You might have had an iota of a point if the Assembly had time to mull it over and was unable to arrive at a funding mechanism.

With additional covered benefits (literally everything is included in the benefit package), 100% actuarial value for everything, no utilization management mechanisms, no ability to steer patients to cost effective settings or treatments, and a bump to Medi-Cal's notably low current rates? C'mon.

Evidently per the study, and it wouldn't at all surprise me given the vast disparity in per capita costs between the States and other countries that adopt SP.

https://www.peri.umass.edu/publicat...rnia-single-payer-health-care-proposal-sb-562

I've yet to see any peer review or professional refutation of this study.

I suspect most people don't view the folks staffing white collar admin support or business ops functions at their physician's office or hospitals as "cancers." Certainly the folks that would displaced if the promised savings actually could be achieved aren't likely to view themselves that way. Hence the political problem.

The unnecessary explosion in cost the status quo presents is indeed cancerous and bloated. The people involved in these jobs obviously aren't 'cancer' or 'cancerous', but superfluous and excessive billing, bureaucracy and administrative costs that exist largely to pad the pockets of providers, medical suppliers, insurers and big pharma are all indeed cancerous.

If you really want to wager that the public loves the idea of being gouged by a criminally inefficient system so that a minority of people in the health sector can keep their jobs and inflated payouts, you'll find me very willing to take that bet.

Imagine if, not content with union-busting, a rightwing government created a monopsony with the express purpose of driving down wages in an industry. Or deliberately dropped a NAFTA-style bomb on a particular segment of the labor market in every single community in a state because the average wage is too high or the sector has more employees than it prefers. What would the left do? Celebrate the elimination of cancerous bloat?

If that industry had a captive audience it routinely overcharges and gouges as a matter of course for services with largely inelastic demand that are necessary for living, you can damn well bet I'd be supporting said monopoly.
 
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California should start small...probably pass "Calicaid", a state funded public option that those who make too much to qualify for Medicaid could buy into and which would compete against the private plans. I bet once a public option for insurance is available you will see a massive drop in premiums.
 
Except that

A: The bill had a cost estimate attached to it

It does! "Financing" means how you pay for those costs.

That was left TBD. I'm shocked the other chamber wasn't psyched about playing the grownup in the room.

Evidently per the study, and it wouldn't at all surprise me given the vast disparity in per capita costs between the States and other countries that adopt SP.

Other countries have lower labor costs than we do. Medicare clinical payment rates alone (i.e., for physicians and nurses) are 50% above the OECD average. We make more here. Hence why I keep returning the point of a monopsony power being introduced to drive down wages.

Anyway, per that study, "For our purposes, we assume as a lower-end estimate that the achievable aggregate savings level in the four areas of unnecessary services, insufficiently delivered services, missed prevention opportunities and fraud would be 5 percent of total costs." SB 562 ensures literally none of those things. Just taking the IOM's outline of where excess costs lie and assuming that (somehow) single-payer magically solves them is absurd. Major provider systems around the country are working overtime on areas 1-3 right now under risk-based payment models that have been rolled out over the past several years. It's hard!

Meanwhile the upward pressures on costs the bill introduces don't seem to figure into the analysis.

The unnecessary explosion in cost the status quo presents is indeed cancerous and bloated. The people involved in these jobs obviously aren't 'cancer' or 'cancerous', but superfluous and excessive billing, bureaucracy and administrative costs that exist largely to pad the pockets of providers, medical suppliers, insurers and big pharma are all indeed cancerous.

If you really want to wager that the public loves the idea of being gouged by a criminally inefficient system so that a minority of people in the health sector can keep their jobs, you'll find me very willing to take that bet.

I don't disagree that the health sector is bloated. But it's not because a bunch of money is pouring into Scrooge McDuck's vault so he can swim in it. That money is going to things--mostly people. Rank-and-file white (and sometimes blue) collar people who keep the whole thing running. Efficiency should and must be our goal, but that doesn't mean laying off people by the thousands (or millions if this goes national) immediately. That's bad on any number of levels, from the economic to clinical quality to political.

If that industry had a captive audience it routinely overcharges and gouges as a matter of course and routine for services with largely inelastic demand that are necessary to living, you can damn well bet I'd be supporting said monopoly.

"Overcharges" is a matter of perspective. All-payer margins for hospitals recently have been 6-7%, which is better than the historical norm sure. But most hospitals are not-for-profits, meaning that additional revenue above costs gets poured into salaries (back to the labor point), infrastructure and capacity, innovation and research, teaching, community benefits, etc and for for-profits (which tend to be more efficient) yes profits.

Prices in this country are high because the cost structure of our health industry is high (though it varies: non-profit hospitals doing the "good" things have higher cost structures than for-profit hospitals not doing them). Long-term we do need to figure how to do more with fewer or lower-wage employees in the health sector, and probably with fewer facilities and the like. But making that a short-term goal is unpalatable, potentially reckless, and politically fraught.
 
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Fair point, but Poe's Law man; this is politics on the internet after all. :p
... Said the guy who supports bringing back Jim Crow, making him literally Hitler.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
 
Single payer can't be a "let states decide" thing. No State could support it on their own. The whole nation is needed.

In for a penny, in for a pound.
 
Single payer can't be a "let states decide" thing. No State could support it on their own. The whole nation is needed.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Why not? If the federal barriers to implementing a state-based single-payer plan could be cleared, why not let them experiment with it?
 
Why not? If the federal barriers to implementing a state-based single-payer plan could be cleared, why not let them experiment with it?

I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying that it won't work long-term.
 
Single payer can't be a "let states decide" thing. No State could support it on their own. The whole nation is needed.

In for a penny, in for a pound.

California's economy is larger than that of nation-states which support Single Payer. This claim is incorrect.
 
It does! "Financing" means how you pay for those costs...

Yes, financing is indeed how you pay for those costs, and it was the responsibility of the Assembly to explore options for financing... as opposed to immediately coping out and shiving it at the behest of donors. That isn't the act of a grownup, but a coward at best, or a mercenary shill at worst.

Other countries have lower labor costs than we do...

No ****; because every other developed country understands healthcare to be a right, coverage to be necessarily universal, and government bargaining power and leverage an invaluable asset in ensuring universality and cost effectiveness of access and care.

Anyway, per that study, "For our purposes, we assume as a lower-end estimate that the achievable aggregate savings level in the four areas of unnecessary services, insufficiently delivered services, missed prevention opportunities and fraud would be 5 percent of total costs." SB 562 ensures literally none of those things. Just taking the IOM's outline of where excess costs lie and assuming that (somehow) single-payer magically solves them is absurd. Major provider systems around the country are working overtime on areas 1-3 right now under risk-based payment models that have been rolled out over the past several years. It's hard!

Meanwhile the upward pressures on costs the bill introduces don't seem to figure into the analysis.

Sure a well conceived and executed SP system is hard. What's your point? SB 562 was an incomplete bill when it came into the Assembly; this is acknowledged and not disputed. What is however disputed is the idea that just giving up on the thing before any attempt to complete it was the right move, where there is clearly an opportunity per such studies to substantially reduce costs. Again, Rendon didn't even try; no arguments were entertained, nothing was evaluated, proposed, disputed or advanced. He straight up strangled the bill in its cradle at the behest of his sponsors.

Second, though cost inflation over time is indeed a thing, you can bet your ass both that SP would cost less per capita and that the cost curve would be more flat and gradual than the status quo alternative.

I don't disagree that the health sector is bloated...

Indeed, a great excess of money is being spent to pad the pockets of providers and medical suppliers as opposed to serving the public interest. Look, it doesn't matter how you spin this, a minority benefits from the existing healthcare system at the expense of the great majority.

"Overcharges" is a matter of perspective...

'Overcharges' is not nearly a matter of perspective. Again, margins for everything from providers to suppliers is greater than the rest of the developed world, by anywhere from a marginal to obscene amount (particularly in the case of medical suppliers). Then there are administrative expenses for dealing with middleman insurers which don't need to exist at all and engage in pure vampirism while adding little to nothing of value.

Meanwhile, the money saved on this, as you admitted, bloat, can go into covering more people, relieves the burden of expense from individuals and businesses for healthcare which allows them to invest and spend more money back into the economy, improves the standard of living and the flexibility, entrepreneurship and efficiency of the work force since people no longer need to worry about obtaining healthcare or shackle themselves/jump through hoops to remain insured, to say nothing of the other myriad secondary benefits of having a healthier populace:

https://www.citizen.org/sites/defau...bind-business-universal-healthcare-report.pdf

The money the health/pharma sector would have gotten doesn't vanish into the aether; conservation of mass (money) isn't being violated, not to worry.

Prices in this country are high because the cost structure...

Yes indeed, the cost structure of the health industry is high; let's look at why that is:

#1: Administrative costs and the pie slice that goes to the private insurer middlemen that add essentially no value to the system and destroy margin for providers.

#2: Legislation that permits run away supplier (pharma, medical devices) costs and gouging like drug import bans (hello Cory Booker), and patent and IP laws that are excessively generous to patent holders and patent trolls (not necessarily innovators; holders ala Daraprim). This results in cascading care inflation as providers and insurers pass on the costs.

#3: Lack of negotiating power applied to health care costs at the provider and supplier level. There is very little in the way of push back with respect to industries that essentially set the price for low elasticity essential goods and services.
 
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Sure a well conceived and executed SP system is hard. What's your point?

That now would be the time for someone to seriously start working on one. No more gimmicks, no more hand-waving, no more conversation pieces. Time to tackle the hard questions if this is going to be a serious option. And that means acknowledging the tradeoffs.

Second, though cost inflation over time is indeed a thing, you can bet your ass both that SP would cost less per capita and that the cost curve would be more flat and gradual than the status quo alternative.

This is an article of faith, which I assume stems from the conviction that we can always rely on price controls to tamp down rising costs if necessary.

If Paul Ryan were to tell you we can hold down "costs" by indexing Medicaid block grants or Medicare premium support contributions to rise more slowly than we'd normally expect medical inflation to increase, you would (presumably) be concerned that this is an unrealistic and artificial assumption, doesn't at all actually address the underlying cost drivers providers face, and quite possibly would harm Medicaid or Medicare beneficiaries in the long run.

The potential of SP to help actually tackle costs, not just set prices, is in the potential of the unified policy direction it provides to support payment and delivery system reforms that reshape provider incentives and indeed the economics of practicing medicine. And that's good! But, as I said, we're already doing that now, in many cases on a multi-payer basis, and it turns out that even as providers increasingly turn to tackling population health management and delivery system reform, consistently getting a handle on rising costs is hard. There's no magic wand (or administratively set fee schedule) that changes the underlying reality.

Indeed, a great excess of money is being spent to pad the pockets of providers and medical suppliers as opposed to serving the public interest.

In 2015, private insurers nationally paid $149B for retail sales of medical products (that includes drugs, DME, and non-DME). That was 4.6% of our total spending on health care. You can add in the $126B in out-of-pocket spending on those things, not all of which is attributable to the privately insured, to get up to 8.6% of health spending. Maybe SP slices into that, with social impacts TBD, and slides 3-4% from national health spending. That's decent and I suppose it at least partially sticks it to the villains you've identified, but I don't know that it's a game-changer.

The majority of our dollars (including those flowing through private insurers) are going to hospital and professional reimbursement. And yes, some of their input costs will be drugs and devices but I don't see how the SP entity lowers those input costs if it isn't buying the inputs for hospitals and physicians.

Meanwhile, the money saved on this, as you admitted, bloat, can go into covering more people, relieving the burden of expense from businesses for healthcare, improving the standard of living, flexibility entrepreneurship and efficiency of the work force since it no longer needs to worry about obtaining healthcare and remaining insured, to say nothing of the other myriad secondary benefits of having a healthier workforce:

You're mixing concepts here. Who finances it (an employer directly vs. a payroll tax or employer levy or whatever the ultimate mechanism for funding is) is distinct from what we're paying for.

When I say "bloat" I'm talking about the fact that we have many people, often well-paid, and many gleaming facilities in our health system, and we can theoretically achieve equivalent health outcomes if we got rid of some of those people (or maybe just slashed their pay) and closed some of those facilities to reduce the costs of having that capacity. But that's tricky, particularly on short time scales in which disruption instead of evolution is demanded.

Perhaps people where you live are very different from those where I live, but I've seen how communities react when you try to close a freestanding ER facility (much less an entire acute care hospital), with the requisite layoffs, to cut costs. They get pissed. They don't celebrate the newfound efficiencies and the freedom from the crushing burden of paying to employ their friends and neighbors, in quite the way your previous posts seem to assume they might.

And note this is in complete contradistinction to your argument that everyone's simply going to have more of everything. "Savings" may mean we need to have lower staffing ratios, fewer beds, fewer or no low-or-negative margin services, etc. It's not all roses, particularly for patient populations accustomed to getting the finer things in life.
 
And to finish the thought:

Yes indeed, the cost structure of the health industry is high; let's look at why that is:

#1: Administrative costs and the pie slice that goes to the private insurer middlemen that add essentially no value to the system and destroy margin for providers.

#2: Legislation that permits run away supplier (pharma, medical devices) costs and gouging like drug import bans (hello Cory Booker), and patent and IP laws that are excessively generous to patent holders and patent trolls (not innovators; holders ala Daraprim).

#3: Lack of negotiating power applied to health care costs at the provider and supplier level. There is very little in the way of push back with respect to industries that essentially set the price for low elasticity essential goods and services.

#1 and #3 aren't quite compatible--push back is the responsibility of payers and price negotiation is part of their value-add to the market (the other major ones being that they shape consumer choice--the lack of any constraints on which being a serious deficiency of CA's bill--and shape provider payment incentives).

There's a real debate to be had as to whether we could just get rid of insurers (or rather fold them into provider systems) and let integrated delivery systems compete on premium with each other directly for customers. Then the provider systems take on the risk, can use the premiums they take in to redesign delivery any way they like, and their cost structures are laid bare for the consumers potentially buying into their system.

Let's assume in most markets we can't do that and let's acknowledge that differences in cost structures will persist, even in a single-payer utopia. It's okay to have both Hiltons and Holiday Inns! That means it's the responsibility of the payer to translate those into meaningful--and manageable--financial signals to consumers. You shouldn't be getting a Band-Aid put on in an academic medical center and your plan design should let you know that. I personally can't get behind any single-payer plan that doesn't fulfill that basic function, which means anything promising zero cost-sharing in all circumstances is a nonstarter. Similarly, if we don't want provider megasystems dominating the landscape, insurers have to be the source of the supports and infrastructure (e.g., data analytics, shared IT infrastructure, care management, etc) needed to deliver care better and have a shot at tackling cost growth.

Can a single-payer plan do that? Perhaps, though I rarely see the idea conceptualized as involving any effort at real plan design. Public payers don't really do insurance stuff much these days. Medicare has farmed out actual insurance operations to private contractors since its inception, and both Medicare and Medicaid have increasingly moved to shopping everything, including risk, out to private insurers instead of actually functioning as public single-payer insurers. So we're talking about a departure from what's existed in the past and presently.

Starting with the presumption that payers add zero value means you proceed with the assumption that the hypothetical single-payer has no responsibilities to make up after the private payers are struck down. And that isn't the case. They do have responsibilities and in their absence someone needs to do them. Without that recognition, you get things like CA's bill.
 
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That now would be the time for someone to seriously start working on one. No more gimmicks, no more hand-waving, no more conversation pieces. Time to tackle the hard questions if this is going to be a serious option. And that means acknowledging the tradeoffs.

Great, then I think we can agree that Rendon made exactly the wrong move by effectively spiking singlepayer rather than trying to work on it at all.

By the way, no one is failing to acknowledge the tradeoffs here, few as they are.

This is an article of faith, which I assume stems from the conviction that we can always rely on price controls to tamp down rising costs if necessary...

Not at all an article of faith; it is a statement based on consistently demonstrated outcomes. SP indeed works largely by setting prices through negotiation, economy of scale and clout. When you have monopoly or near monopoly power on payouts in a state like California, you obviously have immense bargaining power. As stated several times previously prices are inflated precisely because there are no controls, and because insurer middlemen vampirize value and create considerable administrative expenses. SP does away with both of these things in a very big, very real way. The is an obvious and considerable difference between trying to bend the cost curve and expenses in this tried and true way, and through absurd, needlessly roundabout solutions that have largely been ineffective.

In 2015, private insurers nationally paid $149B for retail sales of medical products (that includes drugs, DME, and non-DME). That was 4.6% of our total spending on health care. You can add in the $126B in out-of-pocket spending on those things, not all of which is attributable to the privately insured, to get up to 8.6% of health spending...

You're omitting the sprawling administrative costs these insurers impose on the system directly and indirectly:

Administrative costs are killing U.S. healthcare | Medical Economics

MMS: Error

U.S. health care admin costs are double the global average - Jan. 11, 2017

The majority of our dollars (including those flowing through private insurers) are going to hospital and professional reimbursement. And yes, some of their input costs will be drugs and devices but I don't see how the SP entity lowers those input costs if it isn't buying the inputs for hospitals and physicians.

Why wouldn't it work to tackle those inputs and the pass through of those expenses? That's a core point, alongside eliminating administrative and billing bloat.

It doesn't need to buy the inputs, so much as set and negotiate prices within the state, though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to SP initiatives to work with providers to minimize costs on a more direct basis.

You're mixing concepts here. Who finances it (an employer directly vs. a payroll tax or employer levy or whatever the ultimate mechanism for funding is) is distinct from what we're paying for.

Not at all. I'm making the point, contrary to yours, that there are better uses for the money than padding the margins of providers, insurers, suppliers and byzantine administrative regimes.

When I say "bloat" I'm talking about the fact that we have many people, often well-paid, and many gleaming facilities in our health system, and we can theoretically achieve equivalent health outcomes if we got rid of some of those people (or maybe just slashed their pay) and closed some of those facilities to reduce the costs of having that capacity...

You close the ER and give them universal SP coverage and I guarantee you those people are a lot less angry.

Second, no, I'm not saying that it's all roses, and that there won't be casualties in the name of efficiency; of course there will be, but I can certainly tell you with confidence that things will be better for the majority.

The problem with gradualism is both that real solutions are deferred to the 12th of ****ing never, and that it hasn't worked thus far. If evolution was truly successful, we'd have SP or something like it in probably the most progressive state in the country after over a hundred years, but we don't. Canada is a good case study; SP wasn't phased in via gradualism as it is known in the states, but by provinces making a bold step towards it; an example which the rest of the country soon followed once its benefits became evident. In the UK, nation wide SP per the NHS was suddenly introduced with a piece of sea change legislation in 1948. Perhaps there will indeed be growing pains and a rocky start, but the status quo promises to be far more dis-satisfactory, costly and precarious over any time frame exceeding the short term.
 
#1 and #3 aren't quite compatible--push back is the responsibility of payers and price negotiation is part of their value-add to the market (the other major ones being that they shape consumer choice--the lack of any constraints on which being a serious deficiency of CA's bill--and shape provider payment incentives)...

Nonsense.

Insurers have no role in SP nations save for, at most, travel health insurance and non-essential/supplemental care/therapeutics/cosmetics and peripherals.

Second, individual payers have no real negotiating power with providers, insurers and suppliers for once again, essential goods and service with inelastic demand, nor has there been any kind of effective 'buyers union' in opposition to them outside of governmental entities (if you can find an example I'd love to hear about it), whereas private insurers as push-back are woefully inadequate and ineffective at this job via a governmental alternative in that they lack the wholesale clout and economies of scale governments have.

SP can and does both feature immense negotiating power at the supplier and provider level and it does so while simultaneously eliminating the administrative cost and bloat associated with dealing with so many disparate insurers and their chaos of variable plans with their mess of riders and contingencies because it obviates the need for them, while those that remain are consigned to very small niches.
 
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