"Separation of Church and State"

[pinqy]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The government doesn't have the right to do anything other than protect the borders and regulate trade between States and from foreign countries. An established community has every right to mandate what it wishes and what it feels is important to the welfare of that community.

Citizens have the right to help formulate those rules and through freedom of speech express their pleasure or displeasure. Citizens also have the right to form their own communities (The Quakers, the Amish, the Chinese, and the Mormons did it) What is wrong, and what is happening today is that laws and regulations are being put into place to appease minorities with no regard for what the majority of citizens in any given town or community have accomplished, or think/believe ----- AND without proof that such changes are not harmful, destructive, or will accomplish the ends intended -------------------------- AND it is being done on a nation wide scale circumventing Amendment protocol, making any attempt to affect change or correction by individual citizens impossible..

We can stop right there. You are in favor of Tyranny of the Majority and imagining that equal rights are Tyranny of the Minority.

If you don't recognize individual rights, then I'm not sure how we can continue any discussion.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

We can stop right there. You are in favor of Tyranny of the Majority and imagining that equal rights are Tyranny of the Minority.

If you don't recognize individual rights, then I'm not sure how we can continue any discussion.

You have the right to do as you desire as long as you don't expect everyone else to pay for it or pat you on the back a say you are so right. And that may mean the purchase of a "wedding" cake from another place or making one for yourself.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Tyranny is telling me what I must do. Freedom is telling you why I will not do it.

 

[pinqy]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

You have the right to do as you desire as long as you don't expect everyone else to pay for it or pat you on the back a say you are so right. .

So you are opposed to prayer in public schools or other government supported religion. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

So you are opposed to prayer in public schools or other government supported religion. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.

I don't need your hypocritical sarcasm. In the area I lived, the school was formed by the surrounding farm and dairy community about 1900. And it was established on Judeo/Christian principles. And there was a opening of the school day with a reading from a passage of the Bible by one of the students, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the singing of one in a variety of patriotic songs. There was often a general prayer giving thanks over out lunches, but this was often encouraged before we filed down to the lunchroom.

None of this cost anything. And the Bible reading actually acquainted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., with the reading of Old King James --- something you may not even comprehend today. There was one boy whose parents came from Cuba and he was an "atheist". He was allowed to come into class after the opening exercises ---- his loss not ours.

 

[pinqy]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I don't need your hypocritical sarcasm. In the area I lived, the school was formed by the surrounding farm and dairy community about 1900. And it was established on Judeo/Christian principles. And there was a opening of the school day with a reading from a passage of the Bible by one of the students, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the singing of one in a variety of patriotic songs. There was often a general prayer giving thanks over out lunches, but this was often encouraged before we filed down to the lunchroom.

So the public school...a government entity...told the students what, when, where, and how to pray. This is the opposite of freedom of religion...it is required religion.

None of this cost anything.

The teachers worked for free? The utilities were free? There was no cost at all to run the school that was paid by taxpayers? Why do I think there really was a cost?

And the Bible reading actually acquainted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., with the reading of Old King James --- something you may not even comprehend today.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the KJV in public schools to familiarize children with the archaic English or in comparative religion, or history. But just reading without context or discussion is pointless.

There was one boy whose parents came from Cuba and he was an "atheist". He was allowed to come into class after the opening exercises ---- his loss not ours.

Was he allowed to freely express his religious views?

My stance is that even if all the children at a school were devout followers of the same religion, that it would be wrong for the public school, as a government entity, to require, demand, or pressure any kind of religious observance.

 

[prometeus]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The government doesn't have the right to do anything

You are right. Governments do not have rights just like corporations do not have rights. Governments have power and in our nation that power comes from us the people and the extent of that power is outlined in the Constitution.

other than protect the borders and regulate trade between States and from foreign countries.

Actually the powers of government are considerably broader that that and that is established fact.

An established community has every right to mandate what it wishes and what it feels is important to the welfare of that community.

Indeed.

Citizens have the right to help formulate those rules and through freedom of speech express their pleasure or displeasure.

I am curious, since you denied that the government has the power beyond what you listed, just how do you imagine that the freedom you mention is protected?

Citizens also have the right to form their own communities (The Quakers, the Amish, the Chinese, and the Mormons did it)

And any number of groups still do it today and that is protected as their right.

What is wrong, and what is happening today is that laws and regulations are being put into place to appease minorities

There is nothing wrong wit protecting freedom for ALL members of society and THAT is what is happening today.

with no regard for what the majority of citizens in any given town or community have accomplished, or think/believe

Nothing gives the right to anyone regardless of their number, to infringe to the freedom and rights of others.

AND without proof that such changes are not harmful, destructive, or will accomplish the ends intended

What is that supposed to mean? You want proof of a negative? Brilliant reasoning.

AND it is being done on a nation wide scale circumventing Amendment protocol

What need to be amended and in what respect?

making any attempt to affect change or correction by individual citizens impossible.

How is it impossible? You still have every right you ever had and are free to seek redress for your grievances.

So the Federal government essentially has limited the common town or community to deciding what style streetlights it wants and if school taxes should remain the same or not and little else.

That is just silly.

Government tries to manipulate "transgender" bathrooms.

Just how exactly does one manipulate a bathroom?

I never even heard of transgender until some long forgotten tennis player imagines that he needs to wear wigs and dresses.

Maybe you should read some books.

This should not concern every town in America.

It does not.

The fact that some parent moves to town and wishes that her children should not be exposed to thoughts of GOD is not my concern

Good thing then that nobody is making it your concern.

sorry they moved to the wrong place.

No, they moved to wherever they wanted to. That is the beauty of freedom. It is unfortunate that you regard that of others with little to no respect while you expect others to respect yours. BY the way, that IS hypocrisy.

The school was progressing just fine sticking to old tried and true methods

Yea, that is what slave owners said too and those who opposed interracial marriage and civil rights and advocated segregation. YOu seem to be in good company.

(when a high school education meant a student was proficient in more then just dressing themselves and artistic tattoos).

It is a sad state that we currently have.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

So the public school...a government entity...told the students what, when, where, and how to pray. This is the opposite of freedom of religion...it is required religion.


The teachers worked for free? The utilities were free? There was no cost at all to run the school that was paid by taxpayers? Why do I think there really was a cost?


There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the KJV in public schools to familiarize children with the archaic English or in comparative religion, or history. But just reading without context or discussion is pointless.



Was he allowed to freely express his religious views?

My stance is that even if all the children at a school were devout followers of the same religion, that it would be wrong for the public school, as a government entity, to require, demand, or pressure any kind of religious observance.

Do public schools ever tell students what to read? Do schools tell students what to do for homework? Do schools ask specific questions on tests? The reality is that you are being manipulated, so why should Christian thought be excluded to satisfy the indifferent. I do hope you enjoyed your Winter recess. Next comes the Spring Break. I simply don't call them that normally... And as for the KJV of the Bible -- it gave us something to ponder, beside Harry Potter.

 

[Bodi]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The Constitution can make no law preventing the free exercise of religion either. Oddly, there is nothing in the Constitution giving the government the right to control education. Historically, ALL education was the brainchild of and established by religious institutions and not the government. The Federal Government has infringed on this aspect of religious freedom since the 20th century and manipulated what can and cannot be expressed in the now"publicly controlled" institutions.

Religion does not control, own or anything regarding education. Education was religious free in many societies including the Romans and Greeks and well into the Enlightenment, when what we consider actual education began to flourish. It was the removal of Religion from education that enabled actual knowledge and learning to take place.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Religion does not control, own or anything regarding education. Education was religious free in many societies including the Romans and Greeks and well into the Enlightenment, when what we consider actual education began to flourish. It was the removal of Religion from education that enabled actual knowledge and learning to take place.

Tell me, how do you discuss the Pilgrims in any depth without mentioning the differences between them and the Church of England?
Explain to me why Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church without explaining the religious issues.
Show me how Henry the VIII abused the Protestant stand regarding divorce without taking into account what the Bible reveals.
Tell me how the Second Great Awakening influenced the formation of the US government without listing the religious values embraced at that time.

The reality is you likely heard nothing of any depth because it involves presenting real controversy --- and that involves talking openly about CHRISTIAN VALUES!

 

[prometeus]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Tell me, how do you discuss the Pilgrims in any depth without mentioning the differences between them and the Church of England?
Explain to me why Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church without explaining the religious issues.
Show me how Henry the VIII abused the Protestant stand regarding divorce without taking into account what the Bible reveals.
Tell me how the Second Great Awakening influenced the formation of the US government without listing the religious values embraced at that time.

The reality is you likely heard nothing of any depth because it involves presenting real controversy --- and that involves talking openly about CHRISTIAN VALUES!

The same way you can talk about Greek mythology or The Vedas or The Sutras or any historical events. It is called education not indoctrination.

 

[pinqy]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Do public schools ever tell students what to read? Do schools tell students what to do for homework? Do schools ask specific questions on tests?

Yes.

The reality is that you are being manipulated

non sequitur.

so why should Christian thought be excluded to satisfy the indifferent.

Free exercise of religion.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The same way you can talk about Greek mythology or The Vedas or The Sutras or any historical events. It is called education not indoctrination.

Ok, so you know that the Pilgrims understood that the Head of the Church was Jesus and not the King.
And Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church because people can not buy their way into heaven through indulgences and the Bible needed to be read by the people and not merely explained by the clergy.
And Henry the VIII though entitled to get a divorce if his wife was unfaithful --- biblically should not have presumed that he could ever marry again.
And the Great Awakening not only was the reason all the signers of the Declaration of Independence read the Bible but caused the Federal Government to issue a Federal Governmentally sponsored and printed issue of the Bible to be distributed among the American Natives and inspired even Ben Franklin to suggest that every citizen of the United Sates should be encouraged to learn Hebrew in order to read the Holy Scriptures in their native language. A love for Hebrew swept the American Colonies before, during and after the Revolutionary War, because Hebrew was considered the language of liberty and of GOD. Hebrew was required at nearly all the Ivy League schools in colonial times. Their goal was to train clergy and statesmen.

 

[Bodi]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Tell me, how do you discuss the Pilgrims in any depth without mentioning the differences between them and the Church of England?
Explain to me why Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church without explaining the religious issues.
Show me how Henry the VIII abused the Protestant stand regarding divorce without taking into account what the Bible reveals.
Tell me how the Second Great Awakening influenced the formation of the US government without listing the religious values embraced at that time.

The reality is you likely heard nothing of any depth because it involves presenting real controversy --- and that involves talking openly about CHRISTIAN VALUES!

It is almost like you know... literally, nothing of history.

 

[prometeus]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Ok, so you know that the Pilgrims understood that the Head of the Church was Jesus and not the King.
And Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church because people can not buy their way into heaven through indulgences and the Bible needed to be read by the people and not merely explained by the clergy.
And Henry the VIII though entitled to get a divorce if his wife was unfaithful --- biblically should not have presumed that he could ever marry again.
And the Great Awakening not only was the reason all the signers of the Declaration of Independence read the Bible but caused the Federal Government to issue a Federal Governmentally sponsored and printed issue of the Bible to be distributed among the American Natives and inspired even Ben Franklin to suggest that every citizen of the United Sates should be encouraged to learn Hebrew in order to read the Holy Scriptures in their native language. A love for Hebrew swept the American Colonies before, during and after the Revolutionary War, because Hebrew was considered the language of liberty and of GOD. Hebrew was required at nearly all the Ivy League schools in colonial times. Their goal was to train clergy and statesmen.

What is your point, because it certainly does not support your earlier assertions?

I also see that you conveniently are avoiding my earlier post.

 

[pinqy]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Ok, so you know that the Pilgrims understood that the Head of the Church was Jesus and not the King.
And Martin Luther left the Roman Catholic church because people can not buy their way into heaven through indulgences and the Bible needed to be read by the people and not merely explained by the clergy.
And Henry the VIII though entitled to get a divorce if his wife was unfaithful --- biblically should not have presumed that he could ever marry again.

Henry didn't divorce for unfaithfulness. He requested an annulment from Catherine of Aragon on the grounds that since she had previously been married to his brother, they were in violation of Leviticus 20:21 "And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless."

And the Great Awakening not only was the reason all the signers of the Declaration of Independence read the Bible but caused the Federal Government to issue a Federal Governmentally sponsored and printed issue of the Bible to be distributed among the American Natives

I'm sorry, I can't find anything to back that up...just vague claims. Maybe it's just my search skills. Do you have a source?

Hebrew was required at nearly all the Ivy League schools in colonial times. Their goal was to train clergy and statesmen.

Sure. What's your point? And Jefferson insisted that the University of Virginia NOT have a theology department.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Henry didn't divorce for unfaithfulness. He requested an annulment from Catherine of Aragon on the grounds that since she had previously been married to his brother, they were in violation of Leviticus 20:21 "And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless."

I'm sorry, I can't find anything to back that up...just vague claims. Maybe it's just my search skills. Do you have a source?


Sure. What's your point? And Jefferson insisted that the University of Virginia NOT have a theology department.

Why not start here? Significance of the First Great Awakening

As for Jefferson, it must be understood that he was certainly an intellectual but far from perfect. I mean here is a man who believed in freedom and yet to the contrary held slaves. Religion is a tricky thing. Christianity is considered by many adherents as not a religion but a relationship. The "Christian" becomes an adopted child of GOD and a sibling of Jesus. Religion tends to mean a series of tasks or duties one must perform to appease a god. Christianity in its purest form is beyond this. One cannot be good enough to make God happy. One must depend on GOD for one's salvation.

 

[prometeus]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The "Christian" becomes an adopted child of GOD and a sibling of Jesus.

Yet many claim that we all are children of God.

Religion tends to mean a series of tasks or duties one must perform to appease a god.

Where does it say that and why would God need anything, much less appeasement?

Christianity in its purest form is beyond this.

What is the test and who made it the valid one?

One cannot be good enough to make God happy.

Again, why would God have to be made happy? Why is it unhappy?

One must depend on GOD for one's salvation.

Yet everything is preordained...

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Yet many claim that we all are children of God.

Where does it say that and why would God need anything, much less appeasement?

What is the test and who made it the valid one?

Again, why would God have to be made happy? Why is it unhappy?

Yet everything is preordained...

Many are WRONG! Here is just one small section of scripture that reveals that Jesus didn't agree with many! John 8:44-45King James Version (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


God doesn't want appeasement, that is what many religious people attempt to do. The try to do things to make GOD happy and then expect a reward ... Some religions say one must pray 3 times a day facing a specific direction. Some believe one must go to confession routinely. Some say that special clothing must be worn. Christ says, just accept ME.

 

[American]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

There are various levels of government. Home, Community, County, State and Federal. The issue at large is can the Federal Government assume control of the State. And a question begs to be asked: What came first prayer and Bible reading in any given school or some select group claiming that such offends them. Jews certainly have their own institutions and under a free society should be able to institute whatever procedures they deem appropriate. Edward Schempp was a known agitator who I do not have any respect for. He "claimed" to be Christian; however, he was a Unitarian and as such misrepresented not only himself, but Christ and the Bible. He fought alongside Madeline Murray O'Hair who was an avowed Atheist.

Any "Christian" parent who objects to a daily reading of a small portion of the Bible is not doing right by their children or the wellbeing of the community at large. Such simply don't have a comprehension of what constitutes an in depth, well rounded education. And where the Bible has been ejected from education lower grades, chaos, and disrespect always follows.

I have faith, but I don't believe anyone should be forced to read anything just at Jesus didn't force anything. Those who don't accept will face their own consequences.

 

[prometeus]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Many are WRONG!

Isn't it wonderful that we have people like you to tell us the RIGHT things?

 

[Thoreau72]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

You have the right to do as you desire as long as you don't expect everyone else to pay for it or pat you on the back a say you are so right. And that may mean the purchase of a "wedding" cake from another place or making one for yourself.

The People have rights.

Governments created BY THE PEOPLE have specific and enumerated powers.

You make the common error of not distinguishing between the two.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

Isn't it wonderful that we have people like you to tell us the RIGHT things?

I present my opinion as you present yours. Moreover, I didn't write the Bible and I didn't tell Jesus what to say.

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

I have faith, but I don't believe anyone should be forced to read anything just at Jesus didn't force anything. Those who don't accept will face their own consequences.

Oddly, no student was forced to read from the Bible; however, I imagine even you were required to read something akin to "Dick, Jane & Spot" --- "Alice, Jerry & Jip" --- perhaps the "Bobbsey Twins" at some point in your little life... What are they telling you to read in College?

 

[LittleNipper]

Re: "Separation of Church and State"

The People have rights.

Governments created BY THE PEOPLE have specific and enumerated powers.

You make the common error of not distinguishing between the two.

The power either originates with the people or it is assumed by the governing officials themselves. I would rather shop somewhere else then to imagine someone who doesn't really like me maybe spitting in that wedding cake ----- all the while handing more and more power over to officials who really don't deserve it to begin with, and believe it is due them.