Secession (1 Viewer)

[Gawain]

OK, but that doesn't make it a compact created by the states.



No; in the Constitutions, the "United States" always refers to the Union as a whole, not the individual states.

Except it was originally the united States in the DOC lol
And it was these United States not THE United States.

 

[Sherman123]

You got pretty much everything wrong there. When I say "wage slavery" I'm not using one of the buzz words your generation adopted while you threw away the old meanings. I'm talking about conditions where a real Poor House/prison system existed, run largely by Northern industialists. You don't/can't pay your debt - you go to prison where you are slaved out, or you sign on as a wage slave. You cannot quit. It's wasn't a choice, and it was often for the rest of your meager lifetime.

And children were born into their parent's debt. Made to work it off in the same way.

Ok. So your counter argument is "Hey, the North had prison gangs." Without mentioning that most states had outlawed debtors prisons, and debt indemnification by the time of the Civil War, and that the Federal government abolished it in 1833, this is utterly incomparable to actual... slavery. This is a childish attempt to deflect.

 

[Gawain]

Call himself a Republican? He was the first Republican President. It's you guys that betrayed the legacy of the Republican Party by becoming secessionist loons, bent on destroying the United States. And no, you can't reinstute slavery.

I said its ironic for him to be called a Republican when all he did was destroy the Republic. And you guys? Im no Republican. This will be the 1st time i vote Republican since Reagan and ive been around a long time.

 

[Gawain]

Ok. So your counter argument is "Hey, the North had prison gangs." Without mentioning that most states had outlawed debtors prisons, and debt indemnification by the time of the Civil War, and that the Federal government abolished it in 1833, this is utterly incomparable to actual... slavery. This is a childish attempt to deflect.

What happens if you owe taxes and cant or wont pay them? And isnt taxation in reality slavery? If you have to work 4 months of the year to pay the man I call it slavery.

 

[Sherman123]

What happens if you owe taxes and cant or wont pay them? And isnt taxation in reality slavery? If you have to work 4 months of the year to pay the man I call it slavery.

Yes, chattel field slavery is really the metaphorical and moral equivalent of taxation and the consequences of not paying.

 

[Tennyson]

Going beyond the Constitution, and the year 1861, what if a Texas just started saying no to federal laws, and just pulled the plug and said they were leaving? What are the options of the federal government in the year 2012?

 

[Federalist]

It's as I said -- the people bind their states. The state governments didn't ratify it.

What this is saying is that if 9 state conventions ratify it, then the Constitution is operative for those 9 states (or however many more ratify). That's what "between the States" means. They also could have used the word "among"; it means the same thing.

Yes, I think we are agreeing. Each state ratified the constitution in a convention of delegates from among the people of the state. They ratified the constitution in the name of and on behalf of the people of their respective states. So, through representative delegates, it was the states, qua states, that ratified the constitution. It is a compact among the states.

 

[H. Lee White]

How did those states "retain" something they never had to begin with?

I have about 10 tines, put up the argument as to how/why the states have the right. Please feel free to read those posts and comment as necessary.

 

[jet57]

I have about 10 tines, put up the argument as to how/why the states have the right. Please feel free to read those posts and comment as necessary.

States have the right to secede . . .?

 

[Wiggen]

I said its ironic for him to be called a Republican when all he did was destroy the Republic. And you guys? Im no Republican. This will be the 1st time i vote Republican since Reagan and ive been around a long time.

Well, there are right wingers who are Republicans and then there are right wingers for whom the Republican Party just isn't crazy enough. A lot of those folks live in the woods and run around with combat fatigues on, getting ready for the revolution.

 

[Wiggen]

Going beyond the Constitution, and the year 1861, what if a Texas just started saying no to federal laws, and just pulled the plug and said they were leaving? What are the options of the federal government in the year 2012?

My fervent hope would be that the rest of the country would hold the door open for them. Then set up border control checkpoints along the entire border and quarantine the entire state.

 

[Running_Riot]

Simple secession in no way necessitates war aganst the states.

How so? The last time anyone tried to secede from the Union they tried to acquire, my military force, Federal property, weaponry, and rations. Not to mention the attempted murder/imprisonment of American soldiers. How could a secession come about any other way?

 

[Henrin]

How so? The last time anyone tried to secede from the Union they tried to acquire, my military force, Federal property, weaponry, and rations. Not to mention the attempted murder/imprisonment of American soldiers. How could a secession come about any other way?

Allowing the people to vote on it. I'm pretty sure if we allowed it today Hawaii would pass it no matter how much liberals will hate that.

 

[Henrin]

Going beyond the Constitution, and the year 1861, what if a Texas just started saying no to federal laws, and just pulled the plug and said they were leaving? What are the options of the federal government in the year 2012?

Some moves by the federal government are already being ignored by states. If you were to look into EPA motions to stop states from action you will notice much failure in their efforts.

 

[Federalist]

Some moves by the federal government are already being ignored by states. If you were to look into EPA motions to stop states from action you will notice much failure in their efforts.

As Madison said, it is the responsibility of a state to check unwarranted acts by the general government by interposing between its citizens and the the bad actor. Ultimately, each sovereign state is responsible for the safety and liberty of its citizens.

 

[MadLib]

States are not to ally in a confederation under the USC, so the Confederacy was illegal. Nor are they allowed to do things that the Constitution prohibits them from doing, such as keeping an army or coining money, which are necessary for an independent state.

Even if a state could leave the Union, it would be a spectacularly stupid decision. If they did we can seize all federal prisons, roads, and buildings the state, as they are still federal property. All our troops would pull out. All money lent by the feds to the state would be given back immediately. Failure to comply with the US gov could be considered an act of war.

 

[MadLib]

What about Dred Scott or Plessy? :doh

.

In Dred Scott, slaves were technically property, so the decision was Constitutionally valid. As for Plessy v. Ferguson hypothetically the services could be equal, however the fact of the matter is they weren't.

 

[Federalist]

States are not to ally in a confederation under the USC, so the Confederacy was illegal. Nor are they allowed to do things that the Constitution prohibits them from doing, such as keeping an army or coining money, which are necessary for an independent state.

These are actions that the states agreed to forego while members of the union. Naturally, these voluntary restrictions only apply to states who are members of the union. A state that leaves the compact is obviously no longer bound by the terms of that compact.

Even if a state could leave the Union, it would be a spectacularly stupid decision. If they did we can seize all federal prisons, roads, and buildings the state, as they are still federal property. All our troops would pull out. All money lent by the feds to the state would be given back immediately. Failure to comply with the US gov could be considered an act of war.

Were any state to leave, it would make sense for it to allow the US government to continue to own any currently owned federal assets. I can agree with you on that.

 

[Henrin]

Even if a state could leave the Union, it would be a spectacularly stupid decision. If they did we can seize all federal prisons, roads, and buildings the state, as they are still federal property. All our troops would pull out. All money lent by the feds to the state would be given back immediately. Failure to comply with the US gov could be considered an act of war.

What is the grounds for this? There is nothing that says ownership is maintained or lost so it would be up in the air and need to be settled on what to do to go forward. All you put out would only leads to further aggression where tempers are already high. Not really the best path forward with an already strained country. Though neither is not allowing an unhappy population the ability to practice its freedom to vote themselves out.

 

[Running_Riot]

Allowing the people to vote on it. I'm pretty sure if we allowed it today Hawaii would pass it no matter how much liberals will hate that.

I'm talking about the Continent, not people that have grandparents that remember being part of a territory. Besides, how many people do you really think would vote for independence for any single state? Say good bye to anything dependent on a share of tax revenue from 350 million people. Any program you care to mention.

 

[Tennyson]

The question I posed about a state, such as Texas, leaving the union. But there is a marked difference between 1861 and 2012 regarding military compelled force to stay in the union. The ideal situation, hypothetically, would be Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida for obvious geographic and military reasons. Any military action would be out of the question if it was a serious break. Just in for the sake of MAD, there are around 4000 nuclear weapons between the states listed, and the only assembly plant is in Texas with an unknown number of weapons. Hypothetically, if just Texas were to secede by itself, it would be far better off economically, and by leaving would cripple a fragile U.S. economy. This is just for argument's sake, I am not a secessionist, just find the dynamics much different than 1861, and interesting to kick around.

Just an example:

There is a pretty compelling argument for Texas seceding, it is a self-sufficient state, and actually the only drag on the state is the money sent to the federal government, and the increasing onerous federal laws. There are many more reasons for Texas to secede than not. Texas would be one of the military powers of the world on its own right.
• It is the second largest economy in the U.S. and losing that revenue would cripple the U.S. economy, especially with the debt it has.
• Texas had a gross state product of $1.332 trillion.
• Texas has three of the ten largest ports in the U.S., with 1150 in total.
• Texas is totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs and several types of grain, fruit and vegetables, lumber, natural gas, and seafood from the Gulf.
• Texas is a major developer in the U.S. of computer components and systems, as well as software.
• Texas has 4.6 billion barrels of proven crude oil reserves, and 29 refineries.
• The Texas electric grid is independent of the national grid.
• Texas has 57 Fortune 500 companies.
• Texas has nine medical schools.
• Texas has five international airports.
• The defense/military industry is the second largest sector of the Texas economy, trailing behind the petroleum and gas industry
• Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center, the center of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, is in Houston. It is a leading hub for the Aeronautics industry. The National Space and Biomedical Research Institute is headquartered in Houston.

Energy The known oil deposits of Texas are about 8 billion barrels, which is approximately 1/3 of the U.S. oil supply. Texas is home to ConocoPhillips, Marathon Oil, Exxon-Mobil, Tesoro, and Valero. Houston is the energy capital of the world Texas is a leader in alternative energy sources, producing the most wind power of any state. The cost of fuel would drop dramatically, which would attract airlines. Texas refines 85% of the gasoline in the United States.There are 29 oil refineries in Texas.

Military

Texas is home of The Pantex, the only nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility in the U.S. The Pantex is charged with maintaining the safety, security and reliability of the nation’s nuclear weapons stockpile. It sits on 16,000 acres. It is unknown how many nuclear weapons are at The Pantex, but estimates are in the 1000s.
Army
Fort Bliss
Red River Army Depot
Fort Hood
Sam Houston/Camp Bullis
Ingleside Army Depot

Navy
Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base in Fort Worth
United States Navy in Corpus Christi
United States Navy in Kingsville.
Air Force
Brooks City Air Force Base
Lackland Air Force Base
Sheppard Air Force Base
Air Force Air Force Base
Dyess Air Force Base
Goodfellow Air Force Base
Laughlin Air Force Base
Randolph Air Force Base

Coast Guard
Corpus Christi
Houston/Galveston
VTS Houston/Galveston
Air Station Corpus Christi
Air Station Houston
Search and Rescue Station Freeport
Search and Rescue Station Port Aransas

Marines
Marine Safety Unit Port Arthur
VTS Port Arthur
Marine Safety Unit Texas City
Personnel Totals
Army 60,945
Navy & Marine Corps 6,909
Air Force 40,981
Coast Guard 1,409
Active Duty Military 108,835
Reserve and National Guard 84,721

Total Personnel 194,965

Martin Aeronautics in Fort Worth (where the F-16 Fighting Falcon, the largest Western fighter program, is manufactured, as well as its successor, the F-35 Lightning II and the F-22 Raptor).
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Grand Prairie.
Bell Helicopter Textron in Fort Worth. The V-22 and the H-1.
Three major defense service contractors DynCorp, AECOM, and Computer Sciences Corporation in Fort Worth.
Texas has 65% of the Defense Industry in the U.S.
Texas has the largest National Guard unit in the U.S.

Manufacturing contributed $180 billion in economic development, that's nearly 13% of the total economic output of Texas

 

[Fisher]

Going beyond the Constitution, and the year 1861, what if a Texas just started saying no to federal laws, and just pulled the plug and said they were leaving? What are the options of the federal government in the year 2012?

The most probable start would be Court Orders would be issued. Based on non-compliance, people would be arrested and the state officials would start showing up in prisons (or Guantanamo) ; federal funds could be cut off; Texas could be disconnected from the power & communications grids as troops started blocking highways and military bases inside Texas went on full alert; companies realizing there is more business in the other 49 states and head for the hills; Texas' economy would collapse; and their little revolution would be over. I consider it absurd to consider but that is how I would see that play out. I forget the name of it, but I did read a military fiction book once in which Idaho succeeded.

 

[Tennyson]

Texas has its own power grid separate from the U.S. As far as funding if Texas kept all its money, the federal funding would pail in comparison. I don't think you are taking into consideration the military and nuclear weapons Texas possesses. If it came to that, it would result in MAD, and there would be no military interaction. There would be no federal troops. Texas with keeping its money within the state could attract most of the wealth in the U.S. and business. A flat tax of 15% for individuals would more than fund the state, and a 10% flat business tax would attract the business. The U.S. would be too dependent on Texas to cut it off. If it came to that, then other states would join as well. It seems as if you are presenting a scenario of Texas just deciding one day to announce what they are going to do rather than have prepared for pulling the trigger. Texas has the resources economically and militarily to do it with zero confrontation.

As I stated, this is just for conversation to compare the dynamics of 1861 to 2012.

 

[iguanaman]

Your claim is thusly nullified because you provided no meaningful support for it.

21 pages of this drivel and Lincoln explained it perfectly. "A nation divided against itself cannot stand". And nothing has changed about that.

 

[Rainman05]

The question I posed about a state, such as Texas, leaving the union. But there is a marked difference between 1861 and 2012 regarding military compelled force to stay in the union. The ideal situation, hypothetically, would be Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida for obvious geographic and military reasons. Any military action would be out of the question if it was a serious break. Just in for the sake of MAD, there are around 4000 nuclear weapons between the states listed, and the only assembly plant is in Texas with an unknown number of weapons. Hypothetically, if just Texas were to secede by itself, it would be far better off economically, and by leaving would cripple a fragile U.S. economy. This is just for argument's sake, I am not a secessionist, just find the dynamics much different than 1861, and interesting to kick around.

Just an example:

There is a pretty compelling argument for Texas seceding, it is a self-sufficient state, and actually the only drag on the state is the money sent to the federal government, and the increasing onerous federal laws. There are many more reasons for Texas to secede than not. Texas would be one of the military powers of the world on its own right.
• It is the second largest economy in the U.S. and losing that revenue would cripple the U.S. economy, especially with the debt it has.
• Texas had a gross state product of $1.332 trillion.
• Texas has three of the ten largest ports in the U.S., with 1150 in total.
• Texas is totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs and several types of grain, fruit and vegetables, lumber, natural gas, and seafood from the Gulf.
• Texas is a major developer in the U.S. of computer components and systems, as well as software.
• Texas has 4.6 billion barrels of proven crude oil reserves, and 29 refineries.
• The Texas electric grid is independent of the national grid.
• Texas has 57 Fortune 500 companies.
• Texas has nine medical schools.
• Texas has five international airports.
• The defense/military industry is the second largest sector of the Texas economy, trailing behind the petroleum and gas industry
• Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center, the center of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, is in Houston. It is a leading hub for the Aeronautics industry. The National Space and Biomedical Research Institute is headquartered in Houston.

Energy The known oil deposits of Texas are about 8 billion barrels, which is approximately 1/3 of the U.S. oil supply. Texas is home to ConocoPhillips, Marathon Oil, Exxon-Mobil, Tesoro, and Valero. Houston is the energy capital of the world Texas is a leader in alternative energy sources, producing the most wind power of any state. The cost of fuel would drop dramatically, which would attract airlines. Texas refines 85% of the gasoline in the United States.There are 29 oil refineries in Texas.

Military

Texas is home of The Pantex, the only nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility in the U.S. The Pantex is charged with maintaining the safety, security and reliability of the nation’s nuclear weapons stockpile. It sits on 16,000 acres. It is unknown how many nuclear weapons are at The Pantex, but estimates are in the 1000s.
Army
Fort Bliss
Red River Army Depot
Fort Hood
Sam Houston/Camp Bullis
Ingleside Army Depot

Navy
Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base in Fort Worth
United States Navy in Corpus Christi
United States Navy in Kingsville.
Air Force
Brooks City Air Force Base
Lackland Air Force Base
Sheppard Air Force Base
Air Force Air Force Base
Dyess Air Force Base
Goodfellow Air Force Base
Laughlin Air Force Base
Randolph Air Force Base

Coast Guard
Corpus Christi
Houston/Galveston
VTS Houston/Galveston
Air Station Corpus Christi
Air Station Houston
Search and Rescue Station Freeport
Search and Rescue Station Port Aransas

Marines
Marine Safety Unit Port Arthur
VTS Port Arthur
Marine Safety Unit Texas City
Personnel Totals
Army 60,945
Navy & Marine Corps 6,909
Air Force 40,981
Coast Guard 1,409
Active Duty Military 108,835
Reserve and National Guard 84,721

Total Personnel 194,965

Martin Aeronautics in Fort Worth (where the F-16 Fighting Falcon, the largest Western fighter program, is manufactured, as well as its successor, the F-35 Lightning II and the F-22 Raptor).
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Grand Prairie.
Bell Helicopter Textron in Fort Worth. The V-22 and the H-1.
Three major defense service contractors DynCorp, AECOM, and Computer Sciences Corporation in Fort Worth.
Texas has 65% of the Defense Industry in the U.S.
Texas has the largest National Guard unit in the U.S.

Manufacturing contributed $180 billion in economic development, that's nearly 13% of the total economic output of Texas

There is an argument why Texas should not go solo.

Mexico.

It needed the US's help at the turn of the XIXth century to fend off the mexicans who wanted to annex Texas... it would be unwise for it to decide to invite the opportunity for history to repeat itself.