Scottish Indy Ref part two.

[Baff]

1975 was membership of the EEC. 2016 was leaving the EU.
A generation has passed who did not get their say and wanted it. I am one of them.
The international treaty that referendum was voted on has expired. There no longer is an EEC. It doesn't exist. The people who voted for it have expired. Most of them don't exist. If there is a second eU referendum then yes, it would also be pointless to join in. Pointless to respect it's result.

You wanted your say and you have had it. I wanted mine and I have had it.
Job done.

You wanted an equal say. And you have had it. Sorry you didn't get the result you were hoping for.


My god man, Ukraine has just been through all this. Learn from other peoples mistakes. You do not have to destroy Scotland for this stupidity. It's a no win.
Either you respect the results and stay as a united Scotland in the UK, or you get a divided Scotland. like in Ireland or Ukraine where half the population won't accept the democratic legitimacy of other.
That's it.
We just tried peaceful democratic means and that didn't work. The people didn't want it.

At this point I don't think a united and independent Scotland will ever exist. I don't even think a military coup could deliver it. I think it's honestly closer to a civil war than it is that.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

1975 was membership of the EEC. 2016 was leaving the EU.
A generation has passed who did not get their say and wanted it. I am one of them.
The international treaty that referendum was voted on has expired. There no longer is an EEC. It doesn't exist. The people who voted for it have expired. Most of them don't exist. If there is a second eU referendum then yes, it would also be pointless to join in. Pointless to respect it's result.

You wanted your say and you have had it. I wanted mine and I have had it.
Job done.

You wanted an equal say. And you have had it. Sorry you didn't get the result you were hoping for.


My god man, Ukraine has just been through all this. Learn from other peoples mistakes. You do not have to destroy Scotland for this stupidity. It's a no win.
Either you respect the results and stay as a united Scotland in the UK, or you get a divided Scotland. like in Ireland or Ukraine where half the population won't accept the democratic legitimacy of other.
That's it.
We just tried peaceful democratic means and that didn't work. The people didn't want it.

At this point I don't think a united and independent Scotland will ever exist. I don't even think a military coup could deliver it. I think it's honestly closer to a civil war than it is that.

You're basically arguing that second referendums should only be held or respected if they give you the results that you want.

 

[gunner]

You're basically arguing that second referendums should only be held or respected if they give you the results that you want.

A bit like the SNP after the first vote!

 

[Godric1970]

I did not know it was every district, but I do remember it was a little under 65%.

Who assured the Scots the UK would stay in? Nobody knew at that point and everyone knew it was yet unknown. Of course, people did probably presume.

for me it is about Democracy in my 47 years Scotland has had to endure 30 years + of Tory governments we never voted for and we are currently governed by a party with 1 MP out of 59 ... this is not democracy,
Every single region in Scotland voted to remain in the EU, during the last Indy campaign the No campaign put the EU membership at the centre of it's campaign and they told us to lead the UK and they promised near federalism/Devo Max ... we have seen none of this.

in short the UK and it's establishment has brought it on it's own self by failing to deliver what it promised .... you have had your chance it is now time for Scotland to end the UK as it is today


as stated above it was due to the democratic short fall in the UK and it's refusal to make meaningful change

 

[HonestJoe]

for me it is about Democracy in my 47 years Scotland has had to endure 30 years + of Tory governments we never voted for and we are currently governed by a party with 1 MP out of 59 ... this is not democracy,

It is democracy, the problem is that you’re misunderstanding (or misrepresenting) the system of democracy the UK has.

None of us have ever voted for a government (or a Prime Minister) we vote for MPs, individual representatives for all the people in their constintuency. Those MPs together form Parliament, with a government and an opposition. In a healthy democracy like ours, lots of people will have voted for candidates who didn’t become MPs and lots of people with have voted for members of parties which didn’t go on to form the government. That doesn’t mean those voters aren’t represented or have been disenfranchised, especially if MPs and the opposition do their jobs. You have the same kind of system for the Scottish Parliament too, if anything with the PR elements of the voting system shifting even more power to the parties rather than the voters.

The only way to guarantee what you seem to want would be a single party system. Anything else can (and generally will) lead to a government which various subsets of the population didn’t want.

Every single region in Scotland voted to remain in the EU, during the last Indy campaign the No campaign put the EU membership at the centre of it's campaign and they told us to lead the UK and they promised near federalism/Devo Max ... we have seen none of this.

Like all elections, lots of people lied, exaggerated and spun on all sides. Anyone with any sense should have realised Scotland wasn’t going to get all that they’d been led to believe they would if the voted “No” and that the world wouldn’t be as shiny and bright as they were promised if they went for independence. I strongly suspect that a general lack of trust across the political spectrum led to a lot of “No (change)” votes in the end.

None of this makes more of the same from the SNP any better. There could be an argument for a second independence referendum once the Brexit deal has been made but there is no good reason (and plenty of bad ones) to hold it during the Brexit negotiations, especially since even if there was a “Yes” vote at the end of 2018, there is no way Scotland would actually become an independent country until after the UK leaves the EU (one way or another).

 

[gunner]

for me it is about Democracy in my 47 years Scotland has had to endure 30 years + of Tory governments we never voted for and we are currently governed by a party with 1 MP out of 59 ... this is not democracy,
Every single region in Scotland voted to remain in the EU, during the last Indy campaign the No campaign put the EU membership at the centre of it's campaign and they told us to lead the UK and they promised near federalism/Devo Max ... we have seen none of this.

in short the UK and it's establishment has brought it on it's own self by failing to deliver what it promised .... you have had your chance it is now time for Scotland to end the UK as it is today


as stated above it was due to the democratic short fall in the UK and it's refusal to make meaningful change

And that works both ways. What right has SNP MPs have on affairs pertaining to England?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

A bit like the SNP after the first vote!

Very true - you wonder whether the SNP would allow any vote to return to the UK if all didn't go well or some other problem arose.

personally, I don't see any referendum as a permanent event that can never be changed at some later point in time.

 

[gunner]

Very true - you wonder whether the SNP would allow any vote to return to the UK if all didn't go well or some other problem arose.

personally, I don't see any referendum as a permanent event that can never be changed at some later point in time.

My view is this latest attempt is a Croc of ****. Cranky will look for any opportunity to call for a vote......

 

[Infinite Chaos]

My view is this latest attempt is a Croc of ****. Cranky will look for any opportunity to call for a vote......

She's been threatening it but I don't think the UK Govt has made it easier on her after promising consultation and then delivering none. I think she should have waited too - pretty clear Scotland staying in the EU would cause all sorts of problems for other nations with separatist movements.

 

[Chagos]

She's been threatening it but I don't think the UK Govt has made it easier on her after promising consultation and then delivering none. I think she should have waited too - pretty clear Scotland staying in the EU would cause all sorts of problems for other nations with separatist movements.

In addition to which Scotland is not a member of the EU, the UK is (will have been).

Before Scotland thus has not actually achieved independence once the UK is actually out, any future application for membership will not even be considered.

The country it seeks to be segregated from not being a EU member any longer would make such a set-up different from other EU countries with separatist movements within.

Totally different from, say, Catalonia where Spain, as an active EU member, would show opposition to Catalonia joining up, even if it did ever succeed in gaining independence.

But for Scotland to base a referendum on all of the imponderables involved (see above) doesn't seem very prudent. Even if the UK's exit is effected within the two years (time line not extended) that would still mean two years in limbo before Scottish membership application can even start.

 

[Andalublue]

With the best will in the world, and all the wind behind her, she's not going to manage another referendum before the end of the Article 50 negotiations. Scotland will have to re-apply for EU membership, if and when. The up-side of that for the Scots is that should they apply as an already independent nation the arguments coming from the likes of the Spanish PP and the Belgians and Italians will have much less power. I think Scotland could look forward to quite a swift reintegration into the Union. Mind you, they have to forget about all those opt-outs and embrace the Euro.

 

[Baff]

The SNP have peaked. They are a declining political force now.
They can't get more power, but they can still get less.

Scotland a small country indeed and now has an extra layer of bureaucracy that most other countries do not. It has become more inefficient to manage and over politicised in it's outlook.

No referendum can deliver a united and independent Scotland. Because the people are simply not even remotely united on this issue.
And indeed have no particular history of ever having been.

The SNP has peaked. They got their referendum... but they lost it.
They have many MP's in Westminster, and also some in Holyrood.
It is the Holyrood MSP's that will sink them.

With no opposition in govt, they will take the blame for all the mistakes they make or people they upset and this will gradually sour the electorate, just as it does with any other ruling party.
They can't get more ministers, they already have the maximum of Scottish seats. But they do not have the majority of the Scots behind them. It is minority rule.
Just more people in palaces claiming their will is the will of the people. But it isn't. Westminster lite.

 

[Godric1970]

The SNP have peaked. They are a declining political force now.
They can't get more power, but they can still get less.

Scotland a small country indeed and now has an extra layer of bureaucracy that most other countries do not. It has become more inefficient to manage and over politicised in it's outlook.

No referendum can deliver a united and independent Scotland. Because the people are simply not even remotely united on this issue.
And indeed have no particular history of ever having been.

The SNP has peaked. They got their referendum... but they lost it.
They have many MP's in Westminster, and also some in Holyrood.
It is the Holyrood MSP's that will sink them.

With no opposition in govt, they will take the blame for all the mistakes they make or people they upset and this will gradually sour the electorate, just as it does with any other ruling party.
They can't get more ministers, they already have the maximum of Scottish seats. But they do not have the majority of the Scots behind them. It is minority rule.
Just more people in palaces claiming their will is the will of the people. But it isn't. Westminster lite.

you talk nonsense my boy support for the SNP is still growing

Scotland is a small country you say ... Scotland is larger than Belgium and the Netherlands combined are you saying they are to small

if May blocks the section 30 next week she will only increase support for the SNP and Independence and Holyrood still has a yes majority with the Scottish greens ... the SNP had 250,000 more votes in 2016 than they had in 2011 47% of Scots voted SNP more than the Tories and Labour combined

 

[Baff]

SNP cannot get any more MP's in parliament.
It's peaked.

No one outside Scotland will vote for them.
It has control of Holyrood. Nothing to gain there either.

The SNP is a party who's reason for being is Scottish independence which we know that Scotland does not want. That it's people do not want.
So it can't deliver and it is in direct opposition to the will of the majority of Scots.


Why do 5 million odd Scots need two parliaments when 40 million English do not? Answer, they don't. It's just a waste of money.
An extra palace with an extra amount of high paid socially parasitic palace flunkies who also don't seek to represent the people they are paid to.


Scotland rejected Holyrood in favour of Westminster. What May says goes, what Sturgeon says does not.
To argue with that is to argue with the nation of Scotland. It has made it's choice.

I don't think you can win a civil war in Scotland because we will support our allies against you. So there will be no peaceful transition to a unified and independent Scotland because that is not the democratic wish of the people who live there. And there will be no successful military conquest either. No where for the SNP movement to go. It's peaked.

The SNP will decline now.
Voter fatigue will see to that.

 

[Godric1970]

SNP cannot get any more MP's in parliament.
It's peaked.

No one outside Scotland will vote for them.
It has control of Holyrood. Nothing to gain there either.

The SNP is a party who's reason for being is Scottish independence which we know that Scotland does not want. That it's people do not want.
So it can't deliver and it is in direct opposition to the will of the majority of Scots.


Why do 5 million odd Scots need two parliaments when 40 million English do not? Answer, they don't. It's just a waste of money.
An extra palace with an extra amount of high paid socially parasitic palace flunkies who also don't seek to represent the people they are paid to.


Scotland rejected Holyrood in favour of Westminster. What May says goes, what Sturgeon says does not.
To argue with that is to argue with the nation of Scotland. It has made it's choice.

I don't think you can win a civil war in Scotland because we will support our allies against you. So there will be no peaceful transition to a unified and independent Scotland because that is not the democratic wish of the people who live there. And there will be no successful military conquest either. No where for the SNP movement to go. It's peaked.

The SNP will decline now.
Voter fatigue will see to that.

you have lost the plot ... the NO campaign won because they had the EU at the centre of their campaign

the UK is finished even N Ireland wants to leave you ... you will be what you have always wanted to be "Little England"

Theresa may cannot win

we want 2 parliaments Holyrood and EU parliament :2wave:

btw i have my 9" nails to drive through the UK's coffin

 

[Baff]

Let the second referendum be UK wide and let the question be "shall the UK dissolve the devolved parliaments?"

I shall vote "yes".

Definitely time for more referendums round here. Definitely time.
A whole lot more.

Minority rule sucks. I'm sick of it.

 

[Andalublue]

Minority rule sucks. I'm sick of it.

You mean like having a UK government that 64% of voters voted against? I'm pretty sick of that too.

 

[Baff]

That's exactly what I mean.

What difference Westminster and Holyrood?


Time for a referendum.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Let the second referendum be UK wide and let the question be "shall the UK dissolve the devolved parliaments?"

I shall vote "yes".

Definitely time for more referendums round here. Definitely time.
A whole lot more.

Minority rule sucks. I'm sick of it.

Why not vote to devolve the UK. Let the English be English

 

[Godric1970]

Why not vote to devolve the UK. Let the English be English

devolution is not working the only way is for the UK to totally break up ... you have 2 of the 4 countries that make the UK up wanting to leave

 

[gunner]

You mean like having a UK government that 64% of voters voted against? I'm pretty sick of that too.

Nothing really to do with you, considering your residency is outside of the UK.

 

[Andalublue]

Nothing really to do with you, considering your residency is outside of the UK.

And Scottish independence has got nothing really to do with you, yet still you opine.

 

[gunner]

And Scottish independence has got nothing really to do with you, yet still you opine.

Of course it has. I residence in the UK, which at this point Scotland is a part of. Moreover, it's a bit like saying Europe has no say on the UK wanting to leave. Totally ridiculous.

 

[Grand Mal]

If you hold a referendum, and you do not respect the results of that referendum, then no one will have reason to referendum with you again.

A second referendum cannot overturn the result. All it can do is invalidate all referendums. Make them pointless to hold.
What is the point of having a referendum with a group of people who don't respect referendum results? Time wasting.

It's done. Get on with your life. You had your drama.
Now, declare war or be ridiculed. Pathetic people the SNP. Utterly pathetic. Snivelling.

There was no mention of Brexit in the first referendum campaign, and every Scottish district voted to stay in Europe.
For that reason alone, a second referendum is called for.

 

[Sherman123]

Sturgeon calls for second independence vote - BBC News

Sturgeon calls for a second referendum between Autumn 2018 /2019 spring.
Should be interesting to see how this one goes. I expect them to vote yes this time however if the post Brexit economy does ok then it could go either way. Middle class Scotland may still be reluctant to take the plunge into the unknown.

I hope there is no referendum, and that if there is it is defeated. I'm sick of this nationalistic atomization of countries, it's chauvinistic and regressive.