Scientists uncover 20 genes linked to being transgender – supporting claims the condition has a phys

[faithful_servant]

Not calling you wrong, but can you back that up with evidence?

It's well documented condition that most certainly push people to see their own body as being wrong. Too fat, too skinny, too boy, too girl.
https://adaa.org/understanding-anxi...ated-conditions/body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd#

The problem is that there are people who would have been correctly diagnosed with this 20 years ago that today are simply pumped full of drugs, put under the knife and told that they are "just fine", when in fact they aren't (and before the idiotic accusations start [not from you Renae], I'm not saying this the case with everyone).

 

[faithful_servant]

It's a group of 20 genes. And, appearently, the people who have felt discomforted by their body image has been around for just about forever. For example, the native Americans recognized 5 genders (they called the so called gender fluids 'two spirits'

https://the-numinous.com/native-american-two-spirits/

So how does a gene or cluster of genes that decrease the potential for reproduction survive across thousands of generations?

 

[RAMOSS]

So how does a gene or cluster of genes that decrease the potential for reproduction survive across thousands of generations?

It depends on other factors. If it provides an advantage in cases where it doesn't reduce, then yes, it will.

Let's look at a simpler example.. the gene for sickle cell anemia. In our modern environment, it is a distinct disadvantage.. since it causes illness, and people with a doulble does have a much higher chance of dying.

However, if someone with a single copy of the gene is about, in the place where that mutation proliferated, it protected against people getting a deadly disease, (malaria.) So while a double copy of that gene was deadly, a single copy protected against a deadly and common disease.

 

[yankintx]

Is Homophobia or self-important busibodiness a mental illness?

Hey I am always getting hit up on Grinder by said homophobes. They are usually married, will only come out at night after the wife is tucked in bed. By day they are avowed Christian member of there community telling the rest how us gay boys are destroying Americas moral family values, at night they are Daddies bitch, and they luv it !! After they would not throw me a life preserver on the Titanic.

 

[faithful_servant]

It depends on other factors. If it provides an advantage in cases where it doesn't reduce, then yes, it will.

Let's look at a simpler example.. the gene for sickle cell anemia. In our modern environment, it is a distinct disadvantage.. since it causes illness, and people with a doulble does have a much higher chance of dying.

However, if someone with a single copy of the gene is about, in the place where that mutation proliferated, it protected against people getting a deadly disease, (malaria.) So while a double copy of that gene was deadly, a single copy protected against a deadly and common disease.

You're talking in circles and avoiding the question. How does a genetic condition that decreases the chances for reproduction get passed on for thousands of generations? Show me the genetic upside.

 

[late]

So how does a gene or cluster of genes that decrease the potential for reproduction survive across thousands of generations?

It happens in other species, which also suggests it's normal mammalian behavior.

There are some ideas floating around as to why this is, but (as far as I know) it isn't settled science. It might have something to do with population control, the second son is more likely to be gay than the first. And it might have something to do with providing more help with child rearing.

Doesn't really matter, the important bit is that it happens, and not just in humans.

It is, by definition, natural.

 

[RAMOSS]

You're talking in circles and avoiding the question. How does a genetic condition that decreases the chances for reproduction get passed on for thousands of generations? Show me the genetic upside.

In this case, I don't know. I also don't have evidence that having that specific genetic condition reduces the chance of reproduction. Look at Renae for example. She has children...

You asked how it could happen. I told you how it could. What the specifics are in this case is an unknown, since there is evidence this has been happening for millennium, and apparently we have the same percentage now as 100's of years ago should say something is persistent.

 

[faithful_servant]

It happens in other species, which also suggests it's normal mammalian behavior.

There are some ideas floating around as to why this is, but (as far as I know) it isn't settled science. It might have something to do with population control, the second son is more likely to be gay than the first. And it might have something to do with providing more help with child rearing.

Doesn't really matter, the important bit is that it happens, and not just in humans.

It is, by definition, natural.

..and another person talking around the core question:

So how does a gene or cluster of genes that decrease the potential for reproduction survive across thousands of generations?

 

[RAMOSS]

It's well documented condition that most certainly push people to see their own body as being wrong. Too fat, too skinny, too boy, too girl.
https://adaa.org/understanding-anxi...ated-conditions/body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd#

The problem is that there are people who would have been correctly diagnosed with this 20 years ago that today are simply pumped full of drugs, put under the knife and told that they are "just fine", when in fact they aren't (and before the idiotic accusations start [not from you Renae], I'm not saying this the case with everyone).

What you are failing to do is show a link between bad body image, and the viewpoint that someone feels that are in the body of someone the wrong gender.

 

[faithful_servant]

In this case, I don't know. I also don't have evidence that having that specific genetic condition reduces the chance of reproduction. Look at Renae for example. She has children...

You asked how it could happen. I told you how it could. What the specifics are in this case is an unknown, since there is evidence this has been happening for millennium, and apparently we have the same percentage now as 100's of years ago should say something is persistent.

As I expected, someone would try to make it sound like I was saying that it stops reproduction when I repeatedly and clearly stated that it reduced reproduction. If you don't see yourself as being male, you are less likely to do the things that males do and that includes having sex with females. That means that if you take 1,000 males without this gene and 1,00 males with this gene, you'll see the group without the gene having more children. Eventually such a gene would breed itself out of existence - that's called EVOLUTION.

There isn't evidence, there's a theory that these gens might have something to do with being trans. Not hard, proven science, but an unproven theory.

 

[faithful_servant]

What you are failing to do is show a link between bad body image, and the viewpoint that someone feels that are in the body of someone the wrong gender.

It's not "bad body image", it's seeing your body or parts of it as being wrong. Get educated...

 

[enderpotato00]

Makes sense. Transgenders tend to have a unique brain not a distinctly male or female brain.

 

[RAMOSS]

As I expected, someone would try to make it sound like I was saying that it stops reproduction when I repeatedly and clearly stated that it reduced reproduction. If you don't see yourself as being male, you are less likely to do the things that males do and that includes having sex with females. That means that if you take 1,000 males without this gene and 1,00 males with this gene, you'll see the group without the gene having more children. Eventually such a gene would breed itself out of existence - that's called EVOLUTION.

There isn't evidence, there's a theory that these gens might have something to do with being trans. Not hard, proven science, but an unproven theory.

Then , let's see you come up with a better one, why is that condition been present for a long time.. and still here?

 

[late]

..and another person talking around the core question:

You are trying to imply something.

You have to actually say it.

Then I can say that you need some scientific work to back up your speculation.

After which I can observe that you don't have anything to back up your speculation, and I can move onto the other silliness in this thread.

 

[CLAX1911]

So how does a gene or cluster of genes that decrease the potential for reproduction survive across thousands of generations?

Pleiotropy.

That's like asking how does sickle cell anemia still exist if those people that don't breed.

Well the response to that is pleiotropy. People with sickle cell anemia carry a gene that makes them have sickle cell anemia but the gene is also responsible for people who have malaria resistant blood. So if one out of every 5,000 people with this malaria resistance in their genetic code develops sickle cell anemia the trait of having malaria resistant flood is more valuable than the one out of every 5,000 people that develop sickle cell anemia.

We have mapped The genome but there are things regarding genetics that we don't exactly understand fully and things like, sexuality maybe even transgenderism could be genetic most likely there are pleiotropic. Meaning one out of every hundred or one out of every thousand or one of every 5,000 of these people with this Gene combination is simply not in the mating pool and it doesn't matter because 99 or 999 or for 4, 999 other people have the positive effect of the gene.

To think it's simply a this Gene does that that Gene does this organization is to not fully understand how complex genetics can be.

There are still people born with a genetic disposition for lactose intolerance there are people born with genetic code in there buddy to make cancer to think that all of evolution has reached its pinnacle is really not to understand it at all.

 

[faithful_servant]

Then , let's see you come up with a better one, why is that condition been present for a long time.. and still here?

I'm not sure. What I do know is that based on SCIENCE, it can't be genetic, since it breeds itself out of the gene pool over time.

 

[faithful_servant]

Pleiotropy.

That's like asking how does sickle cell anemia still exist if those people that don't breed.

Well the response to that is pleiotropy. People with sickle cell anemia carry a gene that makes them have sickle cell anemia but the gene is also responsible for people who have malaria resistant blood. So if one out of every 5,000 people with this malaria resistance in their genetic code develops sickle cell anemia the trait of having malaria resistant flood is more valuable than the one out of every 5,000 people that develop sickle cell anemia.

We have mapped The genome but there are things regarding genetics that we don't exactly understand fully and things like, sexuality maybe even transgenderism could be genetic most likely there are pleiotropic. Meaning one out of every hundred or one out of every thousand or one of every 5,000 of these people with this Gene combination is simply not in the mating pool and it doesn't matter because 99 or 999 or for 4, 999 other people have the positive effect of the gene.

To think it's simply a this Gene does that that Gene does this organization is to not fully understand how complex genetics can be.

There are still people born with a genetic disposition for lactose intolerance there are people born with genetic code in there buddy to make cancer to think that all of evolution has reached its pinnacle is really not to understand it at all.

All of those the person's chances of reproduction, being transgender decreases your chances of reproduction. It's ALL about whether the gene gets passed on and NOTHING else. Show me how a condition which by it's very definition decreases the chances of reproduction can survive over the long run.

 

[RAMOSS]

I'm not sure. What I do know is that based on SCIENCE, it can't be genetic, since it breeds itself out of the gene pool over time.

The scientific article posted by Renae has shown your statement to be false. It does show your misunderstanding of genetics and natural selection however.

The sickle cell anemia example shows why your reasoning is wrong.

 

[CLAX1911]

All of those the person's chances of reproduction, being transgender decreases your chances of reproduction. It's ALL about whether the gene gets passed on and NOTHING else. Show me how a condition which by it's very definition decreases the chances of reproduction can survive over the long run.

Pleiotropy again.

 

[Hicup]

hehe...Celtic...I'm well acquainted with the current definition of mental illness. If it makes things clearer, I don't want things you find "pleasant" being considered mental illness, if they are not, either. Illness, by it's definition, means a deviation from health, where health is considered to be "the norm". If transgenderism has it's roots in some of our genetic coding, then responding to it by identifying with it couldn't be more normal.

I think light science has a lot of fun with this kind of ambiguity among defining terms and concepts. Literally everything anyone does can be considered genetic if one, like many do, associate mind and matter to be bound together at the hip. I, on the other hand tend to think of things in less ambiguous terms. If, however, one thinks of certain aspects of our behavior as executive function, such as breathing, learning etc.. Then one might come away with the notion that sex, or sexuality is also executive in nature. So, to give any credence to, not this study specifically, but to studies of this design, one only need to fall in on what side of mind over matter, or mind and matter as exclusively independent concepts, with the former lending credibility to the nature vs. nurture arguments often brought up in these debates.

I think a good question might be, how can one believe in mind and matter as opposed to mind over matter when some trans individuals identify as opposite their assigned gender but their sexuality identifies with the assigned gender. In lay terms. A man you identifies as a women, who is also lesbian. Explain the genetics of that one, or more accurately asking: Does this tend to support mind and matter, or does it support mind over matter?..





Tim-

 

[OlNate]

{snip, cuz I'm long winded...}

Does this tend to support mind and matter, or does it support mind over matter?..

Hi, Tim.

I think it's important to start out by saying that I'm not a scientist or a psychologist, so I tend to let the folks with the degrees explain this stuff to me, in lieu of spending a decade in school. So I don't think I'm actually able to answer your question with much authority. But I like it, so I'll give you my best shot at an answer...which may or may not satisfy you, but what can I say, I can't help myself...hehe... Here's hoping this disclaimer reduces the disappointment from what will likely be a pretty indecisive answer.

Is it possible that someone could be a man, but identify as a woman lesbian? Sure...why not? Does the existence of such a person speak to mind and matter, vs. mind over matter? Well, let's cross back over the line and discuss mental illness for a sec.

It's known that mental illness can be attributed to genetic factors:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mental-illness/symptoms-causes/syc-20374968

This would indicate that an identifiable trait of the mind, specifically how the mind thinks, can be identified in genetic code, demonstrating that thought pattern can be determined by physical factors.

Another example I would point to is this:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia/

Once again, we have a physical variable directly impacting mental patterns and sense of self, in a pretty awful and significant way. (Sorry, I know the article is from 2002, but figured since it was a specific case study, it's shelf life was still ok... )

(At this point I'd like to apologize for falling back on such horrible examples, when discussing the entirely different proposition of transgenderism, which I wouldn't, based on the information provided, comfortably call a mental illness, and doesn't imply harm to anyone. Sadly we study most the things we are afraid of, these were the examples that I could bring to mind that had the best analysis done on them. There are also links to be found with exercise and yoga and adequate amounts of sleep having positive impacts on mental health, for example, one more link towards physical state impacting thought patterns, but these are often too taken for granted or considered wishy washy to drive the point.)

Therefore, this indicates to me, some dumb Canuck without any letters behind his name, that the mind and matter scenario you are suggesting is at least plausible. Certainly what science has suggested can be debated to align with that possibility. I wish I could be more resolute in my answer, but I think we're still learning so much about the mind that I think all we can say is "that's how it looks"...

That's my best crack at answering your question. Of course, ultimately I think that while the analysis and the science is interesting, I don't need it to support these folks... They're not hurting anyone, and if this is how they discover their happiness, or find themselves, more power to them, I wish I had it all figured out like that...hehe... So long as it's one person making decisions that only impact their life, I figure the rest, if respectfully done to understand more about all that encompasses being human, is pretty much academic. I say let them be who they are...to some extent we all define ourselves in our own way beyond the boundaries of how we were born. I don't see why people get so worked up about accepting them for who they say they are...I think we all want that.

 

[RamFel]

Oh very interesting, science proving there is a basis, not a "Mental Illness" for one being Transgender. Well good.

You know what I say, don't you? When you are born a man, then you are a man. If you are born a woman, then you are a woman. Very simple, very basic. That's the way it is. In fact the only thing this finding proves is that finding this "proof" is that it causes people to get sick. The sickness is the attraction to the same sex.

 

[Renae]

You know what I say, don't you? When you are born a man, then you are a man. If you are born a woman, then you are a woman. Very simple, very basic. That's the way it is. In fact the only thing this finding proves is that finding this "proof" is that it causes people to get sick. The sickness is the attraction to the same sex.

Know I don't, I bet it's gonna be very misinformed though.

So, it was.

Now, RamFel, how would you fix a transgender person like myself, what's the treatment path?

 

[RamFel]

Know I don't, I bet it's gonna be very misinformed though.

So, it was.

Now, RamFel, how would you fix a transgender person like myself, what's the treatment path?

I don't know. But staying on the wrong path is surely not the way to cure you.

Don't get me wrong. If you want to have gay sex, you have my full support. Just don't tell me there is something natural about it. wrong is wrong.

 

[Renae]

I don't know. But staying on the wrong path is surely not the way to cure you.

Don't get me wrong. If you want to have gay sex, you have my full support. Just don't tell me there is something natural about it. wrong is wrong.

I'm a Transwoman, married to her wife.

We share a deep love, a happy love, and active love. How is love unnatural?